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anjo25
anjo25:cool2:
Guys that should get kicked from the hall
October 03, 2004 at 03:40PM View BBCode
I'd say Tinker and Evers...what do you think?anjo25:cool2:
corzin
you can use the argument they were/are "famous" thus deserving to be in
or you can say they were key players on some teams that won alot of games
but they are not the places to start
larry
October 03, 2004 at 08:28PM View BBCode
i'd say you would be wrong.you can use the argument they were/are "famous" thus deserving to be in
or you can say they were key players on some teams that won alot of games
but they are not the places to start
larry
anjo25
October 11, 2004 at 03:42PM View BBCode
@corzin:Famous! Moonlight Graham was also made famous in the movie "Field of Dreams" and he wasnt even up to bat once.
barterer2002
October 12, 2004 at 03:22AM View BBCode
Kicking people out of the Hall would have to start with Chick Hafey. Without a doubt the worst election in history.
tysonlowery
October 12, 2004 at 01:11PM View BBCode
Wow - I'm not sure what the fascination is with the board all of a sudden. This was set up as a Hall of Fame area for the Beta leauge that ended probably a year ago.
ME
October 16, 2004 at 06:45PM View BBCode
Phil Rizzuto has to be the first to go. A .703 career OPS?
happy
November 16, 2004 at 08:42AM View BBCode
haha, anjo, way to go starting a thread in a forum that doesnt matter anymore. and ME is right.
corzin
the case is basically that the turn of the century cubs won more games over a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 year period than any team in baseball history. if the goal is winning they were the best in history at it and these 3 were the among the main reasons,
now if you you want to look- just look at the veterans committe when the cronyism started
larry
November 16, 2004 at 12:33PM View BBCode
moonlight graham is not nearly as famous for anything baseball related as tinker to evers to chance. you can at least make a case that they belong in. it is hard to make a case for monlight graham who is not famous,the case is basically that the turn of the century cubs won more games over a 1,2,3,4,5,6,7,8,9, and 10 year period than any team in baseball history. if the goal is winning they were the best in history at it and these 3 were the among the main reasons,
now if you you want to look- just look at the veterans committe when the cronyism started
larry
ironhorse
March 28, 2005 at 02:36PM View BBCode
ruzzuto was the center piece of those great yankee teams from 49-53. Without him, many a ball would go through the six hole. And lets remember that at the time he was the best at his position, and they(YANKEES) couldn't go out and get doerr or pesky from the BoSox, that wasn't going to happen. In 1950 he won the MVP; sure Dimaggio had a good season(his last,actuallystat wise) 122 rbi, 22homers but ruzzuto deserved it. Back then, it was really more about contributions that numbers as it is today. Moreover he was a popular player that everyone, fans and MEDIA alike took a shine to. Surfice to say, Ruzzuto earned his place in, because after all, I thought induction was about, "CONTRIBUTIONS MADE TO THE TEAM RATHER THAN SELF" but we all know that is a lie, and that ruzzuto was good year in and out. One final note, who was going to replace him, Bobby brown? :cool2:
lvnwrth
Hafey was a bad selection. Kelly was a bad selection. Jess Haines was a questionable selection. Lloyd Waner was questionable. Elmer Flick was very good, but not for very long...didn't even reach 2000 hits, and unlike Addie Joss, he didn't die in his prime. Jim Bottomley was a weak selection. Freddie Lindstrom joins Hafey and Kelly in the "worst selection ever" argument.
I looked back over a number of the VC selections, and while not every guy they put in was a terrible choice, it's really hard to argue that any but a handful of their selections corrected any really grievous errors by the BBW. If all the VC selections EXCEPT those who played prior to 1900, coaches, managers, and umpires were tossed out, the HOF would not be any the worse for it.
Having said that, I think it's dangerous precedent to start tossing guys out.
January 12, 2009 at 05:59AM View BBCode
The Veterans Committee made some very questionable selections in the 1960's and 1970's. The criteria appears to be that you be a friend, or well regarded by either Bob Broeg or Bill Terry.Hafey was a bad selection. Kelly was a bad selection. Jess Haines was a questionable selection. Lloyd Waner was questionable. Elmer Flick was very good, but not for very long...didn't even reach 2000 hits, and unlike Addie Joss, he didn't die in his prime. Jim Bottomley was a weak selection. Freddie Lindstrom joins Hafey and Kelly in the "worst selection ever" argument.
I looked back over a number of the VC selections, and while not every guy they put in was a terrible choice, it's really hard to argue that any but a handful of their selections corrected any really grievous errors by the BBW. If all the VC selections EXCEPT those who played prior to 1900, coaches, managers, and umpires were tossed out, the HOF would not be any the worse for it.
Having said that, I think it's dangerous precedent to start tossing guys out.
nuzzy62
January 13, 2009 at 02:02AM View BBCode
Could be fun though - tossing guys. Every year put up the worst selections and take a vote and help erase the mistakes.
shep1582
jim rice is now the worst ever selection besides the vet commitees.
jose cruz was a far superior player, a better baserunner (albeit overaggressive), a better fielder, but played in the astrodome and not fenway.
change the ballparks they played in, and no one would have ever heard of rice, and Cruz would be legendary. he may well have been the first 30-30 guy, playing in fenway...
jimmy wynn was way better than rice, but he got to play in the dome AND dodger mausoleum...
ya gotta vote murphy and dawson and murcer and wynn and cruz and cedeno in if rice is in...
(very rhetorical remarks, I don't truly believe those guys should be in, but rice was a bad choice)
March 04, 2009 at 11:18PM View BBCode
well said lvnwrthjim rice is now the worst ever selection besides the vet commitees.
jose cruz was a far superior player, a better baserunner (albeit overaggressive), a better fielder, but played in the astrodome and not fenway.
change the ballparks they played in, and no one would have ever heard of rice, and Cruz would be legendary. he may well have been the first 30-30 guy, playing in fenway...
jimmy wynn was way better than rice, but he got to play in the dome AND dodger mausoleum...
ya gotta vote murphy and dawson and murcer and wynn and cruz and cedeno in if rice is in...
(very rhetorical remarks, I don't truly believe those guys should be in, but rice was a bad choice)
shep1582
not in ruth's class, but terrific players whose teams won and won and won and won...
they didn't speak to each other for years, in case you didn't know.
there's a great article on the subject in Bill James historical Abstract and "whatever happened to the HOF".
must reads by any fan of the HOF, and anyone who cares about it.
March 04, 2009 at 11:23PM View BBCode
...and tinker and evers are HOF'ers.not in ruth's class, but terrific players whose teams won and won and won and won...
they didn't speak to each other for years, in case you didn't know.
there's a great article on the subject in Bill James historical Abstract and "whatever happened to the HOF".
must reads by any fan of the HOF, and anyone who cares about it.
bpearly69
March 20, 2009 at 04:12AM View BBCode
jim rice was one of the best hitters in the game for a period of time and he got voted in by the writers, vet commitee didnt vote him in
lvnwrth
Well, an argument can be made that Fred Lindstrom is just as bad. Pretty much anyone who was promoted by Bob Broeg and Bill Terry, when they were influential on the Veterans Committee, is a questionable choice.
March 20, 2009 at 05:01AM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
Kicking people out of the Hall would have to start with Chick Hafey. Without a doubt the worst election in history.
Well, an argument can be made that Fred Lindstrom is just as bad. Pretty much anyone who was promoted by Bob Broeg and Bill Terry, when they were influential on the Veterans Committee, is a questionable choice.
lvnwrth
That doesn't mean the writers got it right. He's not the worst guy in the HOF by a long shot, but I don't think you can make a terribly compelling case for him, either.
From 1977 to 1979, Rice might have been one of, if not the most feared hitter in baseball. That was his period of "dominance". He had some other good years, but he also had some stinkers. Apart from those three seasons, he could be very inconsistent.
Rice's problem as a HOFer, IMO, is that he doesn't clearly stand out from a BUNCH of his contemporaries. Dale Murphy had more HR and one more MVP award; Andre Dawson had more hits, HR, RBI; Darrell Evans had more runs scored, more HR, more XBH, reached base almost 800 more times; teammate Dwight Evans had more HR, more XBH, and walked almost twice as many times...over 1300 career walks to Rice's 670.
Rice didn't reach a lot of "milestone" numbers usually associated with a Hall of Famer. He didn't get 3000 hits. He didn't hit 500...or even 400 HR. He didn't drive in 1500 runs.
IMO, Bert Blyleven was and is a far more deserving candidate.
[Edited on 3-20-2009 by lvnwrth]
March 20, 2009 at 05:22AM View BBCode
Originally posted by bpearly69
jim rice was one of the best hitters in the game for a period of time and he got voted in by the writers, vet commitee didnt vote him in
That doesn't mean the writers got it right. He's not the worst guy in the HOF by a long shot, but I don't think you can make a terribly compelling case for him, either.
From 1977 to 1979, Rice might have been one of, if not the most feared hitter in baseball. That was his period of "dominance". He had some other good years, but he also had some stinkers. Apart from those three seasons, he could be very inconsistent.
Rice's problem as a HOFer, IMO, is that he doesn't clearly stand out from a BUNCH of his contemporaries. Dale Murphy had more HR and one more MVP award; Andre Dawson had more hits, HR, RBI; Darrell Evans had more runs scored, more HR, more XBH, reached base almost 800 more times; teammate Dwight Evans had more HR, more XBH, and walked almost twice as many times...over 1300 career walks to Rice's 670.
Rice didn't reach a lot of "milestone" numbers usually associated with a Hall of Famer. He didn't get 3000 hits. He didn't hit 500...or even 400 HR. He didn't drive in 1500 runs.
IMO, Bert Blyleven was and is a far more deserving candidate.
[Edited on 3-20-2009 by lvnwrth]
lvnwrth
Here are the holdovers who will be on the ballot again next year:
Andre Dawson, losing support. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Jim Rice does, but if I think Rice shouldn't have made it, then I guess it doesn't bother me if Dawson doesn't. I've never been a fan of the idea that everyone better than Chick Hafey or Fred Lindstrom should be in the HOF, just because of an earlier mistake.
Bert Blyleven, also losing support, which I find incredible. Among eligible non-HOFers who pitched this century, Blyleven has won more games than anyone except Tommy John. And though you have to love his persistence, John's average of 11 wins per season over a 26-year career just doesn't meet HOF standards, IMO. Blyleven, in his prime, was a better pitcher than HOFer Don Sutton, his direct contemporary. He's 9th in career shutouts, 5th in career K's. His non-election shows how stupid the BBWAA can be, and why the Veteran's Committee is needed occasionally to clean up the writer's messes.
Lee Smith. Not a fan of failed starters, er, relievers, in the HOF, so this one doesn't bother me at all.
Jack Morris. Big-game pitcher, one of the last workhorse guys who thought his job was to finish what he started. With 254 wins, he certainly wouldn't lower any standards if he were elected. I can go either way on this guy.
Tommy John. This was his last season on the ballot. Doubt that he ever makes it, and that's okay.
Tim Raines. Surprised this guy doesn't get more support. If it weren't for Ricky Henderson, Raines would be considered the best lead-off man ever.
Mark McGwire. His support is growing slowly, and I think he'll eventually make it. But he's going to have to wait a long time as a penalty for his HGH use. Very similar player to Willie McCovey and Harmon Killebrew, who are both in. It will take several more years...maybe ten...but I think he will get there.
Alan Trammell. Sentimental favorite. Not sure why he gets the support he does. Wasn't even the best middle infielder on his own team for much of his career.
Dave Parker. Career accomplishments are marginally HOF caliber. He would not be the worst HOFer, by any measure, if he were elected someday. I think he pays the price for being one of the first really big-name players to be involved in a clubhouse drug scandal.
Don Mattingly. For six seasons ('84-'89) he was an outstanding major league hitter. The rest of his career was just okay. Mark Grace, who dropped off the ballot this year, was just as good or better over his career, but he never achieved the heights that Mattingly did during his six-year peak. But with just a little over 2000 hits, 200 HR, 1000 RBI I'm comfortable saying that if Mattingly had played in Cleveland or Houston or Milwaukee, he would not still be on the ballot.
Dale Murphy. Another guy with a short, high peak. From 1982-87, he was one of the best hitters in the game and a two-time MVP. But he had no gradual decline phase to his career. In 1987 he was an All-Star who hit .295. From 1988 on, he was Dave Kingman, with a few more walks thrown in. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Rice or Dawson, but I won't lose any sleep if Rice is in and he never makes it.
Harold Baines. Behold the fate of the career DH. Not a real baseball player...sort of like the relief pitcher of the batting order. HOF should be for real players.
Here are the best guys coming up in 2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.
Okay, you can drop Appier, Ashby, Burks, Hentgen, Jackson, Karros, Lankford, Reynolds, Ventura, and Zeile without much thought. That leaves Alomar, Galarraga, Larkin, Martinez, McGriff.
Roberto Alomar I personally think anyone who spits on an umpire should be barred, but that's not the case. He is a 12-time All-Star, 10-time Gold Glove winner. It's pretty easy to argue that during much of his career, he was the best at his position. Doubt he'll be a first ballot guy, but he'll eventually make it.
Andres Galarraga. How much will writers discount the Rocky Mountain High effect? Clearly he's not a serious candidate without those years in Colorado, where he resurrected his career. But, just looking at the career numbers, he stacks up pretty favorably against Jim Rice. Would not get my vote.
Barry Larkin This is the career that might have been. He's a 12-time All-Star with 3 Gold Gloves (and lost several more GG on reputation alone to Ozzie Smith, when Larkin was young and Smith was old). And yet, in 19 seasons, he played 150 games only FOUR times. This guy was always hurt. But with 2300 hits, less than 200 HR, less than 1000 RBI, I think he could have trouble. Personally, I'd vote for him.
Edgar Martinez. Harold Baines' struggles can't bode well for Martinez, given that Baines has a lot more substantial career. Will Clark, Ellis Burks, and Moises Alou are very similar players who also wore gloves and played defense, and combined they won't get the support Martinez gets, which is a joke. I don't think he'll get in, and I certainly won't lose any sleep over it if he doesn't.
Fred McGriff. Nearly 500 HR (493), nearly 2500 hits (2490), 1500+ RBI gets you in the HOF eventually.
March 20, 2009 at 01:32PM View BBCode
I was bored, so I took a look at who's NOT in the Hall of Fame. When it comes to hitters, I can't find any glaring omissions. The best eligible hitter not in the HOF is Mark McGwire, and we all know the shadow he has hanging over him. Rafael Palmeiro is on the ballot for the first time next year, and I suspect he'll get a similar reception. Also on the ballot for the first time will be Edgar Martinez, but I think the BBWAA treatment of Hal Baines does not bode well for career DH's.Here are the holdovers who will be on the ballot again next year:
Andre Dawson, losing support. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Jim Rice does, but if I think Rice shouldn't have made it, then I guess it doesn't bother me if Dawson doesn't. I've never been a fan of the idea that everyone better than Chick Hafey or Fred Lindstrom should be in the HOF, just because of an earlier mistake.
Bert Blyleven, also losing support, which I find incredible. Among eligible non-HOFers who pitched this century, Blyleven has won more games than anyone except Tommy John. And though you have to love his persistence, John's average of 11 wins per season over a 26-year career just doesn't meet HOF standards, IMO. Blyleven, in his prime, was a better pitcher than HOFer Don Sutton, his direct contemporary. He's 9th in career shutouts, 5th in career K's. His non-election shows how stupid the BBWAA can be, and why the Veteran's Committee is needed occasionally to clean up the writer's messes.
Lee Smith. Not a fan of failed starters, er, relievers, in the HOF, so this one doesn't bother me at all.
Jack Morris. Big-game pitcher, one of the last workhorse guys who thought his job was to finish what he started. With 254 wins, he certainly wouldn't lower any standards if he were elected. I can go either way on this guy.
Tommy John. This was his last season on the ballot. Doubt that he ever makes it, and that's okay.
Tim Raines. Surprised this guy doesn't get more support. If it weren't for Ricky Henderson, Raines would be considered the best lead-off man ever.
Mark McGwire. His support is growing slowly, and I think he'll eventually make it. But he's going to have to wait a long time as a penalty for his HGH use. Very similar player to Willie McCovey and Harmon Killebrew, who are both in. It will take several more years...maybe ten...but I think he will get there.
Alan Trammell. Sentimental favorite. Not sure why he gets the support he does. Wasn't even the best middle infielder on his own team for much of his career.
Dave Parker. Career accomplishments are marginally HOF caliber. He would not be the worst HOFer, by any measure, if he were elected someday. I think he pays the price for being one of the first really big-name players to be involved in a clubhouse drug scandal.
Don Mattingly. For six seasons ('84-'89) he was an outstanding major league hitter. The rest of his career was just okay. Mark Grace, who dropped off the ballot this year, was just as good or better over his career, but he never achieved the heights that Mattingly did during his six-year peak. But with just a little over 2000 hits, 200 HR, 1000 RBI I'm comfortable saying that if Mattingly had played in Cleveland or Houston or Milwaukee, he would not still be on the ballot.
Dale Murphy. Another guy with a short, high peak. From 1982-87, he was one of the best hitters in the game and a two-time MVP. But he had no gradual decline phase to his career. In 1987 he was an All-Star who hit .295. From 1988 on, he was Dave Kingman, with a few more walks thrown in. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Rice or Dawson, but I won't lose any sleep if Rice is in and he never makes it.
Harold Baines. Behold the fate of the career DH. Not a real baseball player...sort of like the relief pitcher of the batting order. HOF should be for real players.
Here are the best guys coming up in 2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.
Okay, you can drop Appier, Ashby, Burks, Hentgen, Jackson, Karros, Lankford, Reynolds, Ventura, and Zeile without much thought. That leaves Alomar, Galarraga, Larkin, Martinez, McGriff.
Roberto Alomar I personally think anyone who spits on an umpire should be barred, but that's not the case. He is a 12-time All-Star, 10-time Gold Glove winner. It's pretty easy to argue that during much of his career, he was the best at his position. Doubt he'll be a first ballot guy, but he'll eventually make it.
Andres Galarraga. How much will writers discount the Rocky Mountain High effect? Clearly he's not a serious candidate without those years in Colorado, where he resurrected his career. But, just looking at the career numbers, he stacks up pretty favorably against Jim Rice. Would not get my vote.
Barry Larkin This is the career that might have been. He's a 12-time All-Star with 3 Gold Gloves (and lost several more GG on reputation alone to Ozzie Smith, when Larkin was young and Smith was old). And yet, in 19 seasons, he played 150 games only FOUR times. This guy was always hurt. But with 2300 hits, less than 200 HR, less than 1000 RBI, I think he could have trouble. Personally, I'd vote for him.
Edgar Martinez. Harold Baines' struggles can't bode well for Martinez, given that Baines has a lot more substantial career. Will Clark, Ellis Burks, and Moises Alou are very similar players who also wore gloves and played defense, and combined they won't get the support Martinez gets, which is a joke. I don't think he'll get in, and I certainly won't lose any sleep over it if he doesn't.
Fred McGriff. Nearly 500 HR (493), nearly 2500 hits (2490), 1500+ RBI gets you in the HOF eventually.
tm4559
June 20, 2009 at 05:28PM View BBCode
the problem for alomar, and that umpire thing, was it's hard to conceal a gun in a tight baseball uniform. because that sorryass umpire deserved shooting, not spiiting on.
shep1582
I'd vote Morris in and not Blyleven, because Morris several times was one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball. I don't think Blyleven ever was.
Blyleven is kind of the anti-Ryan. Whined all the time, the writers HATE him, and his pitch was that unhittable curveball instead of the gas Ryan threw (although Blyleven could bring it). His overall credentials are very similar to Nolan's except for one thing: Ryan should have won 2 CY Youngs ('81 and '87), and there were several other seasons where he had a legitimate claim to make. I can't remember ever saying "wow, Blyleven is the best pitcher in baseball".
And Cryleven is on the radio complaining about his non-election. Lemme get on my soapbox and say "shut the hell up, Bert." The HOF is not about insulting people, it's about honoring people. Listening to him whine about it makes me wanna reach through the radio and smack him. Grow up Bert, life ain't fair, but you made millions playing a game that most of us would have played for free. Be thankful you won WS rings and made all star games and got paid handsomely. If the Hall comes knocking, take it graciously.
What an ingrate.
June 20, 2009 at 06:30PM View BBCode
very nice lvnwrth.I'd vote Morris in and not Blyleven, because Morris several times was one of the top 5 pitchers in baseball. I don't think Blyleven ever was.
Blyleven is kind of the anti-Ryan. Whined all the time, the writers HATE him, and his pitch was that unhittable curveball instead of the gas Ryan threw (although Blyleven could bring it). His overall credentials are very similar to Nolan's except for one thing: Ryan should have won 2 CY Youngs ('81 and '87), and there were several other seasons where he had a legitimate claim to make. I can't remember ever saying "wow, Blyleven is the best pitcher in baseball".
And Cryleven is on the radio complaining about his non-election. Lemme get on my soapbox and say "shut the hell up, Bert." The HOF is not about insulting people, it's about honoring people. Listening to him whine about it makes me wanna reach through the radio and smack him. Grow up Bert, life ain't fair, but you made millions playing a game that most of us would have played for free. Be thankful you won WS rings and made all star games and got paid handsomely. If the Hall comes knocking, take it graciously.
What an ingrate.
ironhorse2ko
June 21, 2009 at 04:52PM View BBCode
Sosa juiced... we found that out "offically" last wk. If he gets in, he'll be my pick to kick out.
ironhorse2ko
Hmm. The problem with Mcquire is that his stance on using HGH hurt him, we don't know for how long he used, if he used( which is likely) so yes his numbers are questionable. I agree, it'll probably take ten more years before he gets in. As far as Raines, no he wasn't the type of player Henderson was...but damn near close.
June 21, 2009 at 05:00PM View BBCode
Originally posted by lvnwrth
I was bored, so I took a look at who's NOT in the Hall of Fame. When it comes to hitters, I can't find any glaring omissions. The best eligible hitter not in the HOF is Mark McGwire, and we all know the shadow he has hanging over him. Rafael Palmeiro is on the ballot for the first time next year, and I suspect he'll get a similar reception. Also on the ballot for the first time will be Edgar Martinez, but I think the BBWAA treatment of Hal Baines does not bode well for career DH's.
Here are the holdovers who will be on the ballot again next year:
Andre Dawson, losing support. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Jim Rice does, but if I think Rice shouldn't have made it, then I guess it doesn't bother me if Dawson doesn't. I've never been a fan of the idea that everyone better than Chick Hafey or Fred Lindstrom should be in the HOF, just because of an earlier mistake.
Bert Blyleven, also losing support, which I find incredible. Among eligible non-HOFers who pitched this century, Blyleven has won more games than anyone except Tommy John. And though you have to love his persistence, John's average of 11 wins per season over a 26-year career just doesn't meet HOF standards, IMO. Blyleven, in his prime, was a better pitcher than HOFer Don Sutton, his direct contemporary. He's 9th in career shutouts, 5th in career K's. His non-election shows how stupid the BBWAA can be, and why the Veteran's Committee is needed occasionally to clean up the writer's messes.
Lee Smith. Not a fan of failed starters, er, relievers, in the HOF, so this one doesn't bother me at all.
Jack Morris. Big-game pitcher, one of the last workhorse guys who thought his job was to finish what he started. With 254 wins, he certainly wouldn't lower any standards if he were elected. I can go either way on this guy.
Tommy John. This was his last season on the ballot. Doubt that he ever makes it, and that's okay.
Tim Raines. Surprised this guy doesn't get more support. If it weren't for Ricky Henderson, Raines would be considered the best lead-off man ever.
Mark McGwire. His support is growing slowly, and I think he'll eventually make it. But he's going to have to wait a long time as a penalty for his HGH use. Very similar player to Willie McCovey and Harmon Killebrew, who are both in. It will take several more years...maybe ten...but I think he will get there.
Alan Trammell. Sentimental favorite. Not sure why he gets the support he does. Wasn't even the best middle infielder on his own team for much of his career.
Dave Parker. Career accomplishments are marginally HOF caliber. He would not be the worst HOFer, by any measure, if he were elected someday. I think he pays the price for being one of the first really big-name players to be involved in a clubhouse drug scandal.
Don Mattingly. For six seasons ('84-'89) he was an outstanding major league hitter. The rest of his career was just okay. Mark Grace, who dropped off the ballot this year, was just as good or better over his career, but he never achieved the heights that Mattingly did during his six-year peak. But with just a little over 2000 hits, 200 HR, 1000 RBI I'm comfortable saying that if Mattingly had played in Cleveland or Houston or Milwaukee, he would not still be on the ballot.
Dale Murphy. Another guy with a short, high peak. From 1982-87, he was one of the best hitters in the game and a two-time MVP. But he had no gradual decline phase to his career. In 1987 he was an All-Star who hit .295. From 1988 on, he was Dave Kingman, with a few more walks thrown in. Deserves to be in the HOF as much as Rice or Dawson, but I won't lose any sleep if Rice is in and he never makes it.
Harold Baines. Behold the fate of the career DH. Not a real baseball player...sort of like the relief pitcher of the batting order. HOF should be for real players.
Here are the best guys coming up in 2010: Roberto Alomar, Kevin Appier, Andy Ashby, Ellis Burks, Andres Galarraga, Pat Hentgen, Mike Jackson, Eric Karros, Ray Lankford, Barry Larkin, Edgar Martinez, Fred McGriff, Shane Reynolds, Robin Ventura, and Todd Zeile.
Okay, you can drop Appier, Ashby, Burks, Hentgen, Jackson, Karros, Lankford, Reynolds, Ventura, and Zeile without much thought. That leaves Alomar, Galarraga, Larkin, Martinez, McGriff.
Roberto Alomar I personally think anyone who spits on an umpire should be barred, but that's not the case. He is a 12-time All-Star, 10-time Gold Glove winner. It's pretty easy to argue that during much of his career, he was the best at his position. Doubt he'll be a first ballot guy, but he'll eventually make it.
Andres Galarraga. How much will writers discount the Rocky Mountain High effect? Clearly he's not a serious candidate without those years in Colorado, where he resurrected his career. But, just looking at the career numbers, he stacks up pretty favorably against Jim Rice. Would not get my vote.
Barry Larkin This is the career that might have been. He's a 12-time All-Star with 3 Gold Gloves (and lost several more GG on reputation alone to Ozzie Smith, when Larkin was young and Smith was old). And yet, in 19 seasons, he played 150 games only FOUR times. This guy was always hurt. But with 2300 hits, less than 200 HR, less than 1000 RBI, I think he could have trouble. Personally, I'd vote for him.
Edgar Martinez. Harold Baines' struggles can't bode well for Martinez, given that Baines has a lot more substantial career. Will Clark, Ellis Burks, and Moises Alou are very similar players who also wore gloves and played defense, and combined they won't get the support Martinez gets, which is a joke. I don't think he'll get in, and I certainly won't lose any sleep over it if he doesn't.
Fred McGriff. Nearly 500 HR (493), nearly 2500 hits (2490), 1500+ RBI gets you in the HOF eventually.
Hmm. The problem with Mcquire is that his stance on using HGH hurt him, we don't know for how long he used, if he used( which is likely) so yes his numbers are questionable. I agree, it'll probably take ten more years before he gets in. As far as Raines, no he wasn't the type of player Henderson was...but damn near close.
thatrogue
That's a soundbite I've heard repeated by fans for years, and I've always found it frustrating.
June 21, 2009 at 05:30PM View BBCode
Why do some people say "baseball players made millions playing a game most of us would play for free"? With all of the hours of training, practice and playing required to compete at a peak level...plus the possibility of injury and the time spent away from one's family, why would anyone consider doing it for free when you could get paid millions to do it (and, if you'd do it for free, how would you support yourself and your family)?That's a soundbite I've heard repeated by fans for years, and I've always found it frustrating.
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