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Mongrel
69 Games, 86 IP, 9-2 W-L, 20 SV, 5 BS, 1.14 WHIP and 3.14 ERA.
[url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=10896034]The top in the Fireman Race:[/url]
37 Games, 32.2 IP, 1-2 W-L, 31 Saves, 5 Blown, 1.35 WHIP and 3.86 ERA
I'll take my guy in the bullpen anyday.
The Ridiculous Fireman award
June 11, 2014 at 12:44AM View formatted
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[url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=10819418]Frank Aulds[/url] went down with a 5 week injury today, so I know he won't stay in the stangings, but he's second overall in the Cy Young voting, trailing by 5 pts, and trailing first place in Fireman voting by 17 points.
69 Games, 86 IP, 9-2 W-L, 20 SV, 5 BS, 1.14 WHIP and 3.14 ERA.
[url=http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=10896034]The top in the Fireman Race:[/url]
37 Games, 32.2 IP, 1-2 W-L, 31 Saves, 5 Blown, 1.35 WHIP and 3.86 ERA
I'll take my guy in the bullpen anyday.
Mongrel
June 11, 2014 at 12:47AM View BBCode
[URL=http://imgur.com/nL4p7WI][IMG]http://i.imgur.com/nL4p7WI.png[/IMG][/URL]
dirtdevil
the fireman is not now and has never been designed by major league baseball to identify the best bullpen pitcher. it has always been a 'closer of the year' award.
June 11, 2014 at 12:47AM View BBCode
31 saves > 20.the fireman is not now and has never been designed by major league baseball to identify the best bullpen pitcher. it has always been a 'closer of the year' award.
Mongrel
June 11, 2014 at 11:42AM View BBCode
Yes I know, but it's a silly award, and shouldn't be part of owner prestige.
dirtdevil
June 11, 2014 at 02:36PM View BBCode
i don't agree. it's as much a real award as mvp, cy young or rookie of the year. I don't see the point in recreating one of them without doing all of them, and by the same token, if one of them shows up on owners cards, then they all should. I certainly don't run my team trying to win awards, but a lot of people enjoy them. why take that away?
dirtdevil
June 11, 2014 at 02:43PM View BBCode
arguably, the fireman is the least silly of all our awards, simply because it's then only one based on a real mlb formula. the others are made up.
paulcaraccio
but i actually like that it's on the owner cards or whatever, because it makes me happy to see a donut there on my page. 82 seasons strong
June 11, 2014 at 07:19PM View BBCode
surely you jest...MVP/CY/ROY are pretty cool regardless of how imperfect the formulas may be, the fireman is just stupid in every way, it doesn't matter whether tyson or selig wrote the formula.but i actually like that it's on the owner cards or whatever, because it makes me happy to see a donut there on my page. 82 seasons strong
dirtdevil
June 11, 2014 at 10:33PM View BBCode
What makes the fireman stupid? It does a reasonably decent job of what it's supposed to do. I've never really understood the animosity.
paulcaraccio
I disagree that it does a decent job of what it's supposed to do, or maybe I just disagree with what it's supposed to do. I think if we have an award for relief pitchers, it should go to the guy who does the best relieving, not the guy who gets most squarely placed in the "Closer" slot. I don't look at it ever, so maybe I'm wrong, but I get the sense that these Fireman awards go to those "closers" that pitch like 47 innings all year and get like 52 saves. Maybe the guy is a good pitcher, but there often isn't really a "fire" to put out in these save situations, and there shouldn't be a reward for that type of usage.
personally i just have a hard spot for RPs in the sim, it's so easy for them to make All Star teams, they're the only guys that get their own award, they're very coddled, and they're always making the HOF just because they were locked into this "Closer" role for 15 years. a B/B pitcher will get hundreds of saves if you stick him there.
June 11, 2014 at 10:59PM View BBCode
Saves aren't very impressive. Triples are cool, but we don't have an award for the guy who gets the most of those.I disagree that it does a decent job of what it's supposed to do, or maybe I just disagree with what it's supposed to do. I think if we have an award for relief pitchers, it should go to the guy who does the best relieving, not the guy who gets most squarely placed in the "Closer" slot. I don't look at it ever, so maybe I'm wrong, but I get the sense that these Fireman awards go to those "closers" that pitch like 47 innings all year and get like 52 saves. Maybe the guy is a good pitcher, but there often isn't really a "fire" to put out in these save situations, and there shouldn't be a reward for that type of usage.
personally i just have a hard spot for RPs in the sim, it's so easy for them to make All Star teams, they're the only guys that get their own award, they're very coddled, and they're always making the HOF just because they were locked into this "Closer" role for 15 years. a B/B pitcher will get hundreds of saves if you stick him there.
redcped
http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=10938166
June 11, 2014 at 11:03PM View BBCode
My "closer" in the Conigliaro League was the Fire Starter of the Year for 2107. I think he'd be negative in the Fireman scoring system with these numbers. He apparently didn't realize there's a "c" at the beginning of the word "closer":http://www.simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=10938166
dirtdevil
you disagree with what's it's supposed to do. which is fine, but not really relevant. it does what it does. if you, like many stat-heads, think what it does is silly, that doesn't really matter, because you aren't the people who get to decide. if we're going for realism, then I don't see why the fireman award shouldn't stay.
besides, we get almost as many threads complaining that a RP used in an "unrealistic" fashion (20W, 20SV, 150+IP) is winning the cy young. if people who like to leverage their bullpen innings in that way can have those guys win the cy young, then the people who believe in 'traditional' bullpen usage should get to keep their fireman trophies.
June 12, 2014 at 12:09AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
Saves aren't very impressive. Triples are cool, but we don't have an award for the guy who gets the most of those.
I disagree that it does a decent job of what it's supposed to do, or maybe I just disagree with what it's supposed to do.
you disagree with what's it's supposed to do. which is fine, but not really relevant. it does what it does. if you, like many stat-heads, think what it does is silly, that doesn't really matter, because you aren't the people who get to decide. if we're going for realism, then I don't see why the fireman award shouldn't stay.
besides, we get almost as many threads complaining that a RP used in an "unrealistic" fashion (20W, 20SV, 150+IP) is winning the cy young. if people who like to leverage their bullpen innings in that way can have those guys win the cy young, then the people who believe in 'traditional' bullpen usage should get to keep their fireman trophies.
paulcaraccio
if a guy wins 20, saves 20, he probably should be in the CY mix. I don't think anyone argues that his performance doesn't deserve the award, but that we shouldn't be allowed to use a pitcher that way. That's different.
I can't find the Fireman formula in the game guide, but I don't even think it takes runs, walks, hits, or anything like that into account. We can debate about MVPs and CYs, but even if the winner might not deserve it, he still had a great year, while a guy can win the Fireman with a fat ERA. It just doesn't seem like a valuable indicator of who the best might be. Just because it exists in MLB doesn't mean we have to duplicate it in a search for realism.
That's just how I feel...it's irrelevant that you think it's irrelevant, and it doesn't matter that you think it doesn't matter. On this site, we are the people who get to decide...if "Kill the Fireman" was #1 on the idea scale, it would probably be done.
June 12, 2014 at 01:05AM View BBCode
lol red, holy sweet lord that guy was terrible...i like the idea of Fire Starter, or Arsonist of the Year, waaaay more than the Fireman, ha.if a guy wins 20, saves 20, he probably should be in the CY mix. I don't think anyone argues that his performance doesn't deserve the award, but that we shouldn't be allowed to use a pitcher that way. That's different.
I can't find the Fireman formula in the game guide, but I don't even think it takes runs, walks, hits, or anything like that into account. We can debate about MVPs and CYs, but even if the winner might not deserve it, he still had a great year, while a guy can win the Fireman with a fat ERA. It just doesn't seem like a valuable indicator of who the best might be. Just because it exists in MLB doesn't mean we have to duplicate it in a search for realism.
That's just how I feel...it's irrelevant that you think it's irrelevant, and it doesn't matter that you think it doesn't matter. On this site, we are the people who get to decide...if "Kill the Fireman" was #1 on the idea scale, it would probably be done.
eragon
June 12, 2014 at 01:33AM View BBCode
The problem is when guys like [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=9556509]this [/url] in 2000 or [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=9805766]this[/url] in 2001 and 2002 win. They pile up saves, but its one thing if a guy has a 3.5 ERA. When players win with ERA in the 5s just because they racked up saves it becomes stupid.
dirtdevil
it isn't. it's not really intended to be. it was created so that rolaids had an award to sponsor. we use the (old version of) the formula used by mlb, which is likely why it isn't in the game guide- it isn't 'our' formula.
it doesn't. but as it's already here, what's the point in getting rid of it?
probably. why bother though? it's a harmless little thing that gives some people something to put on their owner card. it doesn't require anyone to run their bullpen in such a way as to have their guy win it a lot. it doesn't affect gameplay in any way. if an owner thinks it's worthless, they're free to ignore it. since that's the case, why take it away from those who like the realism of it?
June 12, 2014 at 01:18PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
I can't find the Fireman formula in the game guide, but I don't even think it takes runs, walks, hits, or anything like that into account. We can debate about MVPs and CYs, but even if the winner might not deserve it, he still had a great year, while a guy can win the Fireman with a fat ERA. It just doesn't seem like a valuable indicator of who the best might be.
it isn't. it's not really intended to be. it was created so that rolaids had an award to sponsor. we use the (old version of) the formula used by mlb, which is likely why it isn't in the game guide- it isn't 'our' formula.
Just because it exists in MLB doesn't mean we have to duplicate it in a search for realism.
it doesn't. but as it's already here, what's the point in getting rid of it?
That's just how I feel...it's irrelevant that you think it's irrelevant, and it doesn't matter that you think it doesn't matter. On this site, we are the people who get to decide...if "Kill the Fireman" was #1 on the idea scale, it would probably be done.
probably. why bother though? it's a harmless little thing that gives some people something to put on their owner card. it doesn't require anyone to run their bullpen in such a way as to have their guy win it a lot. it doesn't affect gameplay in any way. if an owner thinks it's worthless, they're free to ignore it. since that's the case, why take it away from those who like the realism of it?
dirtdevil
it's not different at all. it's their entire point. they believe that the performance shouldn't be possible so giving the cy young to a guy who has been used unrealistically ruins the award by taking it away from the guy who 'should' have won.
June 12, 2014 at 01:31PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
if a guy wins 20, saves 20, he probably should be in the CY mix. I don't think anyone argues that his performance doesn't deserve the award, but that we shouldn't be allowed to use a pitcher that way. That's different.
it's not different at all. it's their entire point. they believe that the performance shouldn't be possible so giving the cy young to a guy who has been used unrealistically ruins the award by taking it away from the guy who 'should' have won.
redcped
Some lousy pitchers won it, and many great ones.
Worst was probably Antonio Alfonseca in 2000 with an ERA of 4.24 and a WHIP of 1.51. But he led the league with 45 saves ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/alfonan01.shtml
I just discovered in researching this that the award was discontinued after 2012 when Rolaids got bought out. Interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolaids_Relief_Man_Award
June 12, 2014 at 03:02PM View BBCode
The Rolaids award only factors W, L, S and BS. The actual formula eventually added Tough Saves, but I've never seen that statistic anywhere frankly.Some lousy pitchers won it, and many great ones.
Worst was probably Antonio Alfonseca in 2000 with an ERA of 4.24 and a WHIP of 1.51. But he led the league with 45 saves ...
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/a/alfonan01.shtml
I just discovered in researching this that the award was discontinued after 2012 when Rolaids got bought out. Interesting.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolaids_Relief_Man_Award
paulcaraccio
it's not harmless...it clearly annoys at least 2 people, Mongrel and myself. I don't like stupid things, I'd like the game just a little more if it was gone, addition by subtraction.
June 12, 2014 at 08:06PM View BBCode
hah, yeah, MLB doesn't even have it anymore, even the realism is gone :(it's not harmless...it clearly annoys at least 2 people, Mongrel and myself. I don't like stupid things, I'd like the game just a little more if it was gone, addition by subtraction.
Mongrel
Dirtdevil, you definitely make a good point that perhaps it's more like a real award than the MVP. Cy Young, ROY and (even All-star) selection in game.
But let's face it, the Cy Young and MVP are the two major awards in baseball. The fact that the ROY and Fireman receive equal prestige is just a bit silly, and the fact that Gold Gloves are not in owner prestige at all is a bit silly.
But I think at this point this has all strayed from the point of the thread. Not like it was much of a point.
Oh and incidentally, Frank Aulds will be recoverd in five days ... over a month into his injury time and he's still #2 in the Fireman rankings. Though he's off the CY Young votes.
June 12, 2014 at 10:28PM View BBCode
Well, what I do know is the the real world, the award for relievers is changing.Dirtdevil, you definitely make a good point that perhaps it's more like a real award than the MVP. Cy Young, ROY and (even All-star) selection in game.
But let's face it, the Cy Young and MVP are the two major awards in baseball. The fact that the ROY and Fireman receive equal prestige is just a bit silly, and the fact that Gold Gloves are not in owner prestige at all is a bit silly.
But I think at this point this has all strayed from the point of the thread. Not like it was much of a point.
Oh and incidentally, Frank Aulds will be recoverd in five days ... over a month into his injury time and he's still #2 in the Fireman rankings. Though he's off the CY Young votes.
tm4559
saves are dumb. sportswriters are dumb. its a match made in heaven. our awards just try to give the same winner the dumb writers would. the cy young, the mvp, all of them, just trying to give it to the thing that would win in real life. its all dumb. its supposed to be dumb. we are trying to recreate the real life dumbness.
July 03, 2014 at 05:56PM View BBCode
don't the sportswriters give the rolaids award (or did, or do, whatever they call it now if it still exists)?saves are dumb. sportswriters are dumb. its a match made in heaven. our awards just try to give the same winner the dumb writers would. the cy young, the mvp, all of them, just trying to give it to the thing that would win in real life. its all dumb. its supposed to be dumb. we are trying to recreate the real life dumbness.
redcped
The Rolaids award has been disbanded, but it was never given by writers. It was a corporate ad, given by Rolaids. Ya know, it spells R-E-L-I-E-F!
As a recovering sportswriter, I'll try not to take too much offense. My friends who still do it are pretty smart, except for the part about not leaving the dead journalism business. But they think intelligently about baseball.
July 03, 2014 at 06:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
don't the sportswriters give the rolaids award (or did, or do, whatever they call it now if it still exists)?
saves are dumb. sportswriters are dumb. its a match made in heaven. our awards just try to give the same winner the dumb writers would. the cy young, the mvp, all of them, just trying to give it to the thing that would win in real life. its all dumb. its supposed to be dumb. we are trying to recreate the real life dumbness.
The Rolaids award has been disbanded, but it was never given by writers. It was a corporate ad, given by Rolaids. Ya know, it spells R-E-L-I-E-F!
As a recovering sportswriter, I'll try not to take too much offense. My friends who still do it are pretty smart, except for the part about not leaving the dead journalism business. But they think intelligently about baseball.
tm4559
(hats off to MLB and the sportswriters who don't give it, because if its anything like our FOY its completely dumb. but, i have no problem with it being included in prestiege. all that all star stuff is included, and its nothing but health contest counting stats nonense. a good bit of that in MVP and CY Young, of course. our MVP award is fun though, just because of all the bells and whistles they have to put in there to try to get the formula to give back the past winners. its the most fun kind of forumla building there is, and i appluad it. do not applaud the prestiege thing on the owner cards. its dumber than any sporstwriter ever was.)
July 03, 2014 at 06:21PM View BBCode
do they have a fireman award?(hats off to MLB and the sportswriters who don't give it, because if its anything like our FOY its completely dumb. but, i have no problem with it being included in prestiege. all that all star stuff is included, and its nothing but health contest counting stats nonense. a good bit of that in MVP and CY Young, of course. our MVP award is fun though, just because of all the bells and whistles they have to put in there to try to get the formula to give back the past winners. its the most fun kind of forumla building there is, and i appluad it. do not applaud the prestiege thing on the owner cards. its dumber than any sporstwriter ever was.)
LTJaeger
Bottom line is that awards are fun, which is the entire point of SimD. MVP, ROY, etc. have flaws in the formula, and Fireman of the Year has flaws in the use of relievers and the value of the stat, but the same is true of MLB (think of Ted Williams triple crown years). Keep the FOY in place; many people enjoy it, and those that don't enjoy it can continue to ignore it.
July 27, 2014 at 05:53PM View BBCode
I've always liked the Fireman of the Year awards, even if I do have complete disdain for how closers are used today, and the complete watering down of the save. I realize that's contradictory. It's also related to my memories of saves being meaningful stats, and of pitchers like Ron Perranoski, Dick Radatz, Hoyt Wilhelm, etc. racking up double-digit win totals and 20 saves en route to being considered the league's best closer.Bottom line is that awards are fun, which is the entire point of SimD. MVP, ROY, etc. have flaws in the formula, and Fireman of the Year has flaws in the use of relievers and the value of the stat, but the same is true of MLB (think of Ted Williams triple crown years). Keep the FOY in place; many people enjoy it, and those that don't enjoy it can continue to ignore it.
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