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celamantia
To retrofit existing players, just assign their current range to Infield unless they're an outfielder; then generate a new Range with the old Range being the max rather than 100.
Defensive range
July 26, 2002 at 12:43PM View BBCode
While playing High Heat Baseball, I noticed that instead of just Defensive Range, it has both an Infield Range and an Outfield Range. I think that would do well here, too; it would certainly make playing people WAY out of position more realistic, and a player who couldn't bat well but had good range in both infield and outfield would be a valuable utility man.To retrofit existing players, just assign their current range to Infield unless they're an outfielder; then generate a new Range with the old Range being the max rather than 100.
Bob
Range: A player's ability to get to the ball. A low rating here wouldn't translate into more errors, it would just mean the player makes fewer plays -- resulting in more base hits for the opposition.
Hands: A player's ability to catch the ball cleanly once he gets to it. This would closely correlate with fielding percentage.
Think of Mo Vaughn -- he's got the mobility (and girth) of your average walrus, but if he can actually get to the ball he generally fields it cleanly. He would have a low Range rating and a decent Hands rating. Contrast that with Rey Ordonez. He gets to everything with an acre of SS, but makes a fair number of errors. He would have an incredible Range but only average Hands.
Arm: A player's ability to make strong, accurate throws. This would tie to assists and throwing errors. Although this may be too much, you could even break this into two categories: Arm Strength and Throwing Accuracy, with the first correlating with assists and the second with throwing errors.
Adaptability: This would measure a player's ability to play out of position. I would just overlay this onto the current system for playing out of position -- I would just use the Adaptability rating to adjust the severity of the penalties. Therefore, a 1B would still be penalized significantly for trying to play SS, even if he had a high Adaptability score. This would allow certain players to function effectively as utility players. A SS with an A+ Adaptability could play any IF position with very minor penalties or a LF with an A- Adaptability could reasonably play any OF spot.
I also think pitchers should have a rating for Hold Runner, which would generally be higher for LHP and slightly lower for power pitchers (who tend to have a higher leg kick and a slower delivery to the plate). A high rating would mean more pickoffs and fewer stolen bases against.
Now that I'm on the topic of additional player ratings, there are two others that I would like everyone to consider and weigh in on.
Consistency: A player with a high rating would have very few hot or cold streaks, whereas a low rating would translate into a week of hitting .500 and then a week of .100. If you have a low Consistency player, you'll definitely need to keep an eye on him to capitalize on his hot streaks and minimize his cold streaks.
Clutch Ability: This would measure a player's ability to hit with runners in scoring position or a pitcher's ability to close out a 3-2 lead. Obviously you would want your closer to have a high Clutch Ability and you may even want an otherwise mediocre hitter who has a high Clutch Ability sitting on your bench for those key pinch hitting opportunities. I have to admit that I'm not wild about this one, but I thought I'd propose it nonetheless to see what everyone thinks.
Warning -- really long message follows
July 26, 2002 at 01:33PM View BBCode
On a similar note, I know that at some point Tyson is going to revisit the way defense is handled. To that end, I suggest that each fielder have the following four ratings:Range: A player's ability to get to the ball. A low rating here wouldn't translate into more errors, it would just mean the player makes fewer plays -- resulting in more base hits for the opposition.
Hands: A player's ability to catch the ball cleanly once he gets to it. This would closely correlate with fielding percentage.
Think of Mo Vaughn -- he's got the mobility (and girth) of your average walrus, but if he can actually get to the ball he generally fields it cleanly. He would have a low Range rating and a decent Hands rating. Contrast that with Rey Ordonez. He gets to everything with an acre of SS, but makes a fair number of errors. He would have an incredible Range but only average Hands.
Arm: A player's ability to make strong, accurate throws. This would tie to assists and throwing errors. Although this may be too much, you could even break this into two categories: Arm Strength and Throwing Accuracy, with the first correlating with assists and the second with throwing errors.
Adaptability: This would measure a player's ability to play out of position. I would just overlay this onto the current system for playing out of position -- I would just use the Adaptability rating to adjust the severity of the penalties. Therefore, a 1B would still be penalized significantly for trying to play SS, even if he had a high Adaptability score. This would allow certain players to function effectively as utility players. A SS with an A+ Adaptability could play any IF position with very minor penalties or a LF with an A- Adaptability could reasonably play any OF spot.
I also think pitchers should have a rating for Hold Runner, which would generally be higher for LHP and slightly lower for power pitchers (who tend to have a higher leg kick and a slower delivery to the plate). A high rating would mean more pickoffs and fewer stolen bases against.
Now that I'm on the topic of additional player ratings, there are two others that I would like everyone to consider and weigh in on.
Consistency: A player with a high rating would have very few hot or cold streaks, whereas a low rating would translate into a week of hitting .500 and then a week of .100. If you have a low Consistency player, you'll definitely need to keep an eye on him to capitalize on his hot streaks and minimize his cold streaks.
Clutch Ability: This would measure a player's ability to hit with runners in scoring position or a pitcher's ability to close out a 3-2 lead. Obviously you would want your closer to have a high Clutch Ability and you may even want an otherwise mediocre hitter who has a high Clutch Ability sitting on your bench for those key pinch hitting opportunities. I have to admit that I'm not wild about this one, but I thought I'd propose it nonetheless to see what everyone thinks.
BC
Diamond Mind gives a rating for each player that a player can play, or did play, during the season. This isn't a sim to recreate a season, probably not the best, but I do believe that it would be a very valuable addition to make it so that a player can play more than one position.
High Heat is a simple arcade game and not a good sim at all but has some qualities that could be reporoduced or used for discussion. Players are rated on their range as mentioned, but they are also rated at their knowledge of each position. So a guy like Mark McLemore would have good knowledge of 2B, 3B, and LF. He would rate lower at SS and CF, but still wouldn't hurt all that much to use him there. What High Heat has that I really like is the ability to "teach" a player a new position. If you have two guys that are 2B, but no real SS in your system, you can have one of those players begin to learn SS in the minors, or majors if you feel like suffering through the curve. He will eventually get to know that position well enough to contribute.
I feel that a utility guy that can play many positions gives you the opportunity to change your lineup more. There was another thread on this, changing lineups, and I believe that if you had an Andy Fox or Dave Berg type player, you could rotate through several positions giving people rest when needed.
I personally always draft one or two utility guys on to my roster in my sim leagues. For one, I just simply like their attitude (I know, no relevence in a sim). Another, they can help for a variety of injuries. And another, they are perfect late inning pinch runners when down by one. This is all, to me, part of managing a ball club.
In conclusion, I'd like to hear other ideas about this because I believe that it would be a very valuable addition.
July 26, 2002 at 02:34PM View BBCode
Many sims handle defense in different ways.Diamond Mind gives a rating for each player that a player can play, or did play, during the season. This isn't a sim to recreate a season, probably not the best, but I do believe that it would be a very valuable addition to make it so that a player can play more than one position.
High Heat is a simple arcade game and not a good sim at all but has some qualities that could be reporoduced or used for discussion. Players are rated on their range as mentioned, but they are also rated at their knowledge of each position. So a guy like Mark McLemore would have good knowledge of 2B, 3B, and LF. He would rate lower at SS and CF, but still wouldn't hurt all that much to use him there. What High Heat has that I really like is the ability to "teach" a player a new position. If you have two guys that are 2B, but no real SS in your system, you can have one of those players begin to learn SS in the minors, or majors if you feel like suffering through the curve. He will eventually get to know that position well enough to contribute.
I feel that a utility guy that can play many positions gives you the opportunity to change your lineup more. There was another thread on this, changing lineups, and I believe that if you had an Andy Fox or Dave Berg type player, you could rotate through several positions giving people rest when needed.
I personally always draft one or two utility guys on to my roster in my sim leagues. For one, I just simply like their attitude (I know, no relevence in a sim). Another, they can help for a variety of injuries. And another, they are perfect late inning pinch runners when down by one. This is all, to me, part of managing a ball club.
In conclusion, I'd like to hear other ideas about this because I believe that it would be a very valuable addition.
dawgfan
I'm much less enthusiastic about the consistency and clutch ideas. Given that there's no credible evidence to support the notion of clutch hitting ability (and sabermatricians have studied this extensively), I can't support adding it to this game. The consistency idea has a little more merit IMO, but if implemented I think the effect should be very subtle. Additionally, unless stat-tracking in this game gets a lot more in-depth, i.e. tracking stats over the last 7 days for example, capitolizing on this feature would be much more difficult to do and probably not worth the effort.
July 26, 2002 at 05:55PM View BBCode
I think Bob's ideas are right-on for defense - he's broken things down into a very accurate representation of how to assess defensive ability.I'm much less enthusiastic about the consistency and clutch ideas. Given that there's no credible evidence to support the notion of clutch hitting ability (and sabermatricians have studied this extensively), I can't support adding it to this game. The consistency idea has a little more merit IMO, but if implemented I think the effect should be very subtle. Additionally, unless stat-tracking in this game gets a lot more in-depth, i.e. tracking stats over the last 7 days for example, capitolizing on this feature would be much more difficult to do and probably not worth the effort.
DougPaz
I agree that defense needs to be tweeked and I think that something that made a utility player more valuble would be welcome. Remember guys like John Cangelosi and Jose Pagan and many more that just hung around forever because they could contribute in so many ways. I would love to be able to do that with a player. Strong defensively at several positions with a .250 bat and good speed. Sounds valuable to me!
July 26, 2002 at 06:00PM View BBCode
Wow! Here we go again, I love some of Bob's ideas, especially the ones about Consistency and Clutch. I think this would give you more of the hands-on day to day managing that we all seem to crave. On the other hand, you want the game to be tough to master so no one gets bored but not so confusing and un-learnable that someone won't give it a try either.I agree that defense needs to be tweeked and I think that something that made a utility player more valuble would be welcome. Remember guys like John Cangelosi and Jose Pagan and many more that just hung around forever because they could contribute in so many ways. I would love to be able to do that with a player. Strong defensively at several positions with a .250 bat and good speed. Sounds valuable to me!
tysok
What we would call clutch ability really depends more on the hitters spot in the order, #3 hitters often end up in those situations so we remember them more than a #8 hitter that comes up in maybe 1/4 as many times...
And as much as High Heat has problems with it's AI in some areas, and it's look and feel of arcade, it is anything but a simple arcade game. Playing with it's default tune file is like playing a guitar that's been sitting in the corner for a year. It's default tune sucks, and is very arcade like, but when you tweak it right it is a very good simulation.
Anyhow, I think consistency is in contact ability. A C hitter should have ups and downs, like some kind of graph I can't think of the name of. :) A 0 line with him going on a hot streak for a bit, then going 0 for 15. A D hitter should end up on the negative side more often while a B spends more time on the positive side. The farther he is to the ends of the spectrum the more "consistent" he is. You know an A hitter will find a way out of his slump soon, while an F hitter may be leading the race right now but you notice his shoe strings aren't tied....
I do like the idea for range though. Too much is trying to be taken into account now with just that one letter, it's not possible to really open up the possibilities and oddities that can and reguarly do occur in baseball.
July 26, 2002 at 10:13PM View BBCode
There is no such thing as a clutch player. I read an article while I was searching for the "taking extra bases" stats that broke it down... for instance player A may have a rep as a clutch hitter, because he knocked in the winning run so often... while player B doesn't have the clutch reputation, yet when the stats were really broken down you find that player A hit .250 with 30 RBIs with 100 ABs in those situations, while player B hit .249 with 10 RBIs in 50 ABs.What we would call clutch ability really depends more on the hitters spot in the order, #3 hitters often end up in those situations so we remember them more than a #8 hitter that comes up in maybe 1/4 as many times...
And as much as High Heat has problems with it's AI in some areas, and it's look and feel of arcade, it is anything but a simple arcade game. Playing with it's default tune file is like playing a guitar that's been sitting in the corner for a year. It's default tune sucks, and is very arcade like, but when you tweak it right it is a very good simulation.
Anyhow, I think consistency is in contact ability. A C hitter should have ups and downs, like some kind of graph I can't think of the name of. :) A 0 line with him going on a hot streak for a bit, then going 0 for 15. A D hitter should end up on the negative side more often while a B spends more time on the positive side. The farther he is to the ends of the spectrum the more "consistent" he is. You know an A hitter will find a way out of his slump soon, while an F hitter may be leading the race right now but you notice his shoe strings aren't tied....
I do like the idea for range though. Too much is trying to be taken into account now with just that one letter, it's not possible to really open up the possibilities and oddities that can and reguarly do occur in baseball.
Anonymous
I don't believe that article for a minute. I've been in coaching for almost 30 years now and I most definetely have had players that I want to have the ball when the game is on the line. As a matter of fact, I've had the same reputation...from making big-money putts in golf to just reacting well under pressure. I believe that a clutch player is better able to control his emotions in the heat of battle and channel his/her energies to their advantage. Cool under pressure...there is no possible way you can make me believe that there aren't clutch players!!
July 26, 2002 at 10:52PM View formatted
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[quote]There is no such thing as a clutch player.[/quote]
I don't believe that article for a minute. I've been in coaching for almost 30 years now and I most definetely have had players that I want to have the ball when the game is on the line. As a matter of fact, I've had the same reputation...from making big-money putts in golf to just reacting well under pressure. I believe that a clutch player is better able to control his emotions in the heat of battle and channel his/her energies to their advantage. Cool under pressure...there is no possible way you can make me believe that there aren't clutch players!!
DougPaz
Whoops that was me!!
July 26, 2002 at 10:53PM View BBCode
I don't know why that login goes out every once in a while. I guess I didn't react too well under pressure there!!! LOL
dawgfan
We as human beings are highly susceptible to forming impressions, and utilizing selective memory. Say the first time you watched the Dodgers play on TV in the mid-'80's and you witnessed Pedro Guerrero hit a HR in a crucial situation. Then, the next time you saw him play he did it again - you might form a conclusion that Pedro was a "clutch" hitter. Thereafter, whenever you saw him get a key hit, that would reinforce your initial impression. Every time you saw him fail in that situation, you either wrote it off - "Nobody get's a hit every time up" - or simply forgot about it.
I'm simplifying things a bit with this example, but this is typical of how the human brain works. Memory is faulty and our reasoning is often clouded by emotion or faulty logic. That is why statistics can be useful (when used correctly) - provided you have numbers that accurately reflect a situation and you apply sound reasoning in your analysis of those numbers, you are given a clear, untainted view of a situation.
People often use the example of Barry Bonds as pointing out someone they think isn't a "clutch" hitter due to his well-known poor hitting numbers in post-season situations. Well, the problems here are multiple: First off, his postseason plate appearances are infrequent enough that they don't give us a very large (and thus statitically accurate) representation. Secondly, how are we defining "clutch" in this situation - do all the plate appearances in the regular season that helped get his teams into the post-season in the first place not count? What about other definitions of clutch, such as hitting with runners in scoring position, or hitting with runners in scoring position in late-innings, or in a ballgame decided by less than 2 runs, etc?
I don't mean to pick on anyone here - I can certainly understand why someone would think that clutch hitting is a trait that exists based on observation. But the fact is that such a trait does not seem to be corroborated by objective analysis of the statistical record.
July 26, 2002 at 11:15PM View BBCode
Numerous studies have been done by sabermatricians on the subjuct of clutch hitting ability, and there simply isn't enough evidence to justify the notion of clutch hitting. That's not to say it doesn't exist - I have no doubt that some players are better able to handle a higher-stress situation than others - but that when taken in the context of major-league baseball where you are watching the 750 best baseball players in the world and all the other variables that are in question in any one at-bat, clutch hitting ability is just not something that has statistical evidence to back it up.We as human beings are highly susceptible to forming impressions, and utilizing selective memory. Say the first time you watched the Dodgers play on TV in the mid-'80's and you witnessed Pedro Guerrero hit a HR in a crucial situation. Then, the next time you saw him play he did it again - you might form a conclusion that Pedro was a "clutch" hitter. Thereafter, whenever you saw him get a key hit, that would reinforce your initial impression. Every time you saw him fail in that situation, you either wrote it off - "Nobody get's a hit every time up" - or simply forgot about it.
I'm simplifying things a bit with this example, but this is typical of how the human brain works. Memory is faulty and our reasoning is often clouded by emotion or faulty logic. That is why statistics can be useful (when used correctly) - provided you have numbers that accurately reflect a situation and you apply sound reasoning in your analysis of those numbers, you are given a clear, untainted view of a situation.
People often use the example of Barry Bonds as pointing out someone they think isn't a "clutch" hitter due to his well-known poor hitting numbers in post-season situations. Well, the problems here are multiple: First off, his postseason plate appearances are infrequent enough that they don't give us a very large (and thus statitically accurate) representation. Secondly, how are we defining "clutch" in this situation - do all the plate appearances in the regular season that helped get his teams into the post-season in the first place not count? What about other definitions of clutch, such as hitting with runners in scoring position, or hitting with runners in scoring position in late-innings, or in a ballgame decided by less than 2 runs, etc?
I don't mean to pick on anyone here - I can certainly understand why someone would think that clutch hitting is a trait that exists based on observation. But the fact is that such a trait does not seem to be corroborated by objective analysis of the statistical record.
tysok
I would agree that when players are in scoring position, or the game is on the line, that there are people you'd rather have in that situation. But it isn't his "clutch" ability that makes that.
If your opponent have the bases loaded and no outs you'd want your best relief pitcher pitching. In that situation they never call for the guy that has an ERA of 20.0 through 60+ IP. They go for the best player. If you have 2 runners in scoring position in the bottom of the 9th and 2 out you want your best hitter there, the guy hitting .387 for the year. They never pinch hit and bring in the guy that's hitting .187 with 150 ABs.
On the other hand the guy that has the highest average isn't always the best hitter you have. Everything is situational in baseball. If the bases are loaded and you're tied in the bottom of the 9th you'll bring in the best reliever you have... maybe the best ERA is 3.00 in 100 IP and 40 BBs, while the guy with a 5.00 ERA has 100 IP and 10 BBs. Which do you bring in? Need more info, 3.00 ERA guy has given up 50 hits, 5.00 ERA guy has only given up 35 hits.
5.0 is coming in. I'd rather them win with that 45/100 chance than the 90/100 chance.
Now say 3.0 ERA guy has 150 Ks on the year, 5.0 has only 20 Ks. Does that change anything?
No, while 3.0 ERA guy is definately who you want out there if there was just runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 (or maybe even 0) outs, 5.0 is the guy you want on the mound when it comes to the above scenario.
A rather simplistic example, I admit. But still valid.
Anyhow, in my opinion "clutch" doesn't exist in baseball. Even with the statistics I can't say it's absolutely correct. What defines clutch? It can't really be in the earlier innings, although if a hitter gets a Game winning RBI HR in the 3rd off a pitcher that continues to pitch a one hitter for the day that would seem pretty clutch. It can't be with runners in scoring position, if it's the 3rd inning and you already lead by 5 the situation just isn't clutch. The only thing that makes sense is if the winning run is on base with 1 or 2 out in the 9th or later... and honestly, there just that many times that players come up with that in place, so the numbers really aren't large enough to give an accurate representation.
July 27, 2002 at 12:30AM View BBCode
Exactly Dawgfan, that was my intention in my statement.I would agree that when players are in scoring position, or the game is on the line, that there are people you'd rather have in that situation. But it isn't his "clutch" ability that makes that.
If your opponent have the bases loaded and no outs you'd want your best relief pitcher pitching. In that situation they never call for the guy that has an ERA of 20.0 through 60+ IP. They go for the best player. If you have 2 runners in scoring position in the bottom of the 9th and 2 out you want your best hitter there, the guy hitting .387 for the year. They never pinch hit and bring in the guy that's hitting .187 with 150 ABs.
On the other hand the guy that has the highest average isn't always the best hitter you have. Everything is situational in baseball. If the bases are loaded and you're tied in the bottom of the 9th you'll bring in the best reliever you have... maybe the best ERA is 3.00 in 100 IP and 40 BBs, while the guy with a 5.00 ERA has 100 IP and 10 BBs. Which do you bring in? Need more info, 3.00 ERA guy has given up 50 hits, 5.00 ERA guy has only given up 35 hits.
5.0 is coming in. I'd rather them win with that 45/100 chance than the 90/100 chance.
Now say 3.0 ERA guy has 150 Ks on the year, 5.0 has only 20 Ks. Does that change anything?
No, while 3.0 ERA guy is definately who you want out there if there was just runners on 1st and 2nd with 1 (or maybe even 0) outs, 5.0 is the guy you want on the mound when it comes to the above scenario.
A rather simplistic example, I admit. But still valid.
Anyhow, in my opinion "clutch" doesn't exist in baseball. Even with the statistics I can't say it's absolutely correct. What defines clutch? It can't really be in the earlier innings, although if a hitter gets a Game winning RBI HR in the 3rd off a pitcher that continues to pitch a one hitter for the day that would seem pretty clutch. It can't be with runners in scoring position, if it's the 3rd inning and you already lead by 5 the situation just isn't clutch. The only thing that makes sense is if the winning run is on base with 1 or 2 out in the 9th or later... and honestly, there just that many times that players come up with that in place, so the numbers really aren't large enough to give an accurate representation.
Bob
I remember Bill James did a study on this and he couldn't find statistical evidence to show a clutch hitting ability. While that ability may exist, until somebody can show me some stats to back it up, I don't believe it -- what can I say, I'm a skeptic.
That being said, if a clutch rating makes SimDynasty more fun, it may be worth adding -- even if it's not realistic. Hell, it ain't realistic not having salary considerations, but we do so to make SimDynasty more enjoyable. Personally, I'd rather keep things as realistic as possible, so I vote "no" on Clutch. But I can certainly see why someone would like, whether or not it represents an ability that truly exists in the real world.
July 27, 2002 at 01:10AM View BBCode
Even though I brought up the idea of a clutch rating, I agree with Tysok and Dawgfan. Still, I'm glad I raised the issue since it's generated some good discussion.I remember Bill James did a study on this and he couldn't find statistical evidence to show a clutch hitting ability. While that ability may exist, until somebody can show me some stats to back it up, I don't believe it -- what can I say, I'm a skeptic.
That being said, if a clutch rating makes SimDynasty more fun, it may be worth adding -- even if it's not realistic. Hell, it ain't realistic not having salary considerations, but we do so to make SimDynasty more enjoyable. Personally, I'd rather keep things as realistic as possible, so I vote "no" on Clutch. But I can certainly see why someone would like, whether or not it represents an ability that truly exists in the real world.
DougPaz
Although it may be less obvious statistically, especially in Major League Baseball, you guys will never be able to convince me that there is no such thing as a "clutch" player. I think it would make a GREAT addition to SimDynasty!
:):)
July 27, 2002 at 02:11AM View BBCode
Huff, Darrell How to Lie with Statistics. New York, W. W. Norton & Company, 1954.
This is a delightful little book about statistical deception, illustrated charmingly by Irving Geis. If you've ever wondered what all the numbers in news stories mean, and where they come from, this is a good book for you to read. If you haven't ever wondered about the numbers--it's an even better read for you.
Huff shows a good selection of the methods by which numbers can be made to say something different than the actual data would support. He looks at presentation, correlations, collection of data, sample size, sample bias, and other critical factors which can enter into the validity of statistics and of the conclusions we try to draw from them. All of the material is written in a clear, interesting manner which will be easy for the layperson to comprehend and apply.
Don't let the media continue to deceive you--intentionally or unintentionally!
Although it may be less obvious statistically, especially in Major League Baseball, you guys will never be able to convince me that there is no such thing as a "clutch" player. I think it would make a GREAT addition to SimDynasty!
:):)
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