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| Poll: Most important stat for a pitcher? | |
|---|---|
| Earned Run Average | 3 |
| WHIP | 2 |
| On Base Average Against | 0 |
| SO to Walks to Hits ratio | 0 |
| Percent of Batters SO | 0 |
| Wins and Losses percentage | 1 |
sycophantman
Most important stat for a pitcher?
January 07, 2004 at 04:20PM View BBCode
Which one is most telling of a good pitcher?
ME
January 07, 2004 at 05:31PM View BBCode
ERA probably. WHIP is basically the same as on-base allowed (its walks/hits per innings pitched)
skierdude44
January 07, 2004 at 08:02PM View BBCode
depends on the pitcher's role really. for starters i would probably say WHIP is the most important bcuz even if a guy has a good era if he lets a lot of guys on base but always gets away there is a lot of risk with him while someone with a low WHIP should have a low era and is more reliable. for closers i would say era bcuz WHIP can get blown out of porportion for them bcuz they only pitch one inning.
farfetched
Every other stat for a pitcher is affected by another element which plays a role in the fluctuation or increase of it from game to game.
January 07, 2004 at 08:55PM View BBCode
About the only stat which reflects the ability of the pitcher and the ability of the pitcher ONLY is walks. That's the most telling of any stat, and it's easy. The fewer, the better.Every other stat for a pitcher is affected by another element which plays a role in the fluctuation or increase of it from game to game.
jigakoeochiro
January 07, 2004 at 09:01PM View BBCode
the only two legit chocies are ERA and WHIP. both are telling numbers pretty equal
arodtoo
January 07, 2004 at 09:04PM View formatted
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ERA, it doesn't matter if you have a whip of 3.0, as long as you don't let them score, if you give up 27 hittings in a game, and shut them out, you are a great pitcher, you win or lose the game base on how many people are on base, it is won or lost on how many runs you allow to score
skierdude44
January 07, 2004 at 09:17PM View BBCode
yea but if u have a whip of 3 ur a high risk guy and u cant always count on that guy to win the game.
farfetched
WHIP is a fairly accurate stat, but as I said before, you can't ever tell how hitters are going to hit against you from start to start or appearance to appearance, no matter how good a pitcher you are.
But a lot of stats rest on whether or not you can find the plate consistently.
January 07, 2004 at 09:21PM View BBCode
And you could allow 0 runs one start, and 10 runs the next. You can never tell when the opposing hitters are going to be at their best. There've been 20-game winners with ERAs over 4.00, and there've been 20-game losers with ERAs under 3.00. That's why you can't always trust ERA in measuring the worth of a pitcher, because you could allow 4-5 runs a game with a GREAT team hitting behind you and win, or you could allow as few as 2-3 runs a game and have a crap team hitting behind you and lose. I know the hitting of both teams don't necessarily affect how good a pitcher one is, but it can severely mess up his stats.WHIP is a fairly accurate stat, but as I said before, you can't ever tell how hitters are going to hit against you from start to start or appearance to appearance, no matter how good a pitcher you are.
But a lot of stats rest on whether or not you can find the plate consistently.
sycophantman
But I find that the SO to Walk ratio is a very telling stat, and it works across the board, relief or starter.
Win loss i put in because i needed more than five...
I hope nobody votes that one...:P
January 07, 2004 at 10:18PM View BBCode
WHIP is usually low on good pitchers, it's quite dependable.But I find that the SO to Walk ratio is a very telling stat, and it works across the board, relief or starter.
Win loss i put in because i needed more than five...
I hope nobody votes that one...:P
happy
January 07, 2004 at 10:32PM View BBCode
ok, ERA can be changed by different things, for example better Defense behind you, and good relief pitchers to come in when you are in a jam. WHIP doesnt take into account if you give up a lot of homeruns and other stuff. opposing OPS might be somewhat important.
tysok
Take my last season I played, 45 IP, 20 Runs let in, 4 ER, 0 Ks, 1 BB, 9 Hits, 2 HRs, and 35 errors committed behind me (29 allowing men on base). My team sucked btw if ya can't tell. :)
Amazingly enough my stats worked out to make easy figuring...
So I had an ERA of 0.40
WHIP of 0.22
We had a pathetic Run average of 4.00
Looks fair, and ERA and WHIP look really good but with that many errors behind me and runs scored the numbers themselves may show only the fact that the defense really really sucked. I dug back through and found how many inherited runners I had (50), and how many of those scored (11), and how many were charged to those other pitchers as ER (5).
So 39 runners reached base with me on the mound, take away the 2 HRs because they weren't really on base they just touched them while trotting. 37 runners I let on base, 50 inherited.
87 Runners.
Then 20 runners scored, minus the 2 HRs again. 18 runners scored plus the 11 inherited.
29 Runs.
Only 35% of runners that were on base when I was pitching scored.
That's not a bad total at all. Even with all the stupidity going on behind me I was able to pull that kind of number. From best figuring it's about 5% higher than a fair ML pitcher.
Compare those stats with the other pitchers on the team... the team ERA was 3.83, 1.43 WHIP, 56% of runners scored, and 47% of all inherited runners scored.... it looks even better.
But anyhow, I'd think the next best thing would be to look at WHIP... Low means if the runner isn't there he can't score... high means their playing with fire.
I'd personally love to see a stat like that, runs charged indirectly to a pitcher... they have the inherited runners and how many score but it's never printed as far as I see. :(
January 07, 2004 at 11:14PM View BBCode
I was a pitcher, and I didn't really look at any single stat to see how well I did. Personally I don't think a pitcher is overly interested in any single stat... but maybe look at a stat that doesn't really exist.Take my last season I played, 45 IP, 20 Runs let in, 4 ER, 0 Ks, 1 BB, 9 Hits, 2 HRs, and 35 errors committed behind me (29 allowing men on base). My team sucked btw if ya can't tell. :)
Amazingly enough my stats worked out to make easy figuring...
So I had an ERA of 0.40
WHIP of 0.22
We had a pathetic Run average of 4.00
Looks fair, and ERA and WHIP look really good but with that many errors behind me and runs scored the numbers themselves may show only the fact that the defense really really sucked. I dug back through and found how many inherited runners I had (50), and how many of those scored (11), and how many were charged to those other pitchers as ER (5).
So 39 runners reached base with me on the mound, take away the 2 HRs because they weren't really on base they just touched them while trotting. 37 runners I let on base, 50 inherited.
87 Runners.
Then 20 runners scored, minus the 2 HRs again. 18 runners scored plus the 11 inherited.
29 Runs.
Only 35% of runners that were on base when I was pitching scored.
That's not a bad total at all. Even with all the stupidity going on behind me I was able to pull that kind of number. From best figuring it's about 5% higher than a fair ML pitcher.
Compare those stats with the other pitchers on the team... the team ERA was 3.83, 1.43 WHIP, 56% of runners scored, and 47% of all inherited runners scored.... it looks even better.
But anyhow, I'd think the next best thing would be to look at WHIP... Low means if the runner isn't there he can't score... high means their playing with fire.
I'd personally love to see a stat like that, runs charged indirectly to a pitcher... they have the inherited runners and how many score but it's never printed as far as I see. :(
Duff77
I had a guy named Will Parris who won 20 games in the DML. His ERA was well over 4.00, but he was the only other guy to win 20 games. We had a good offense, but he just seemed to get the job done when he really had to. And that held: In the Champion's league, where I went 22-140, Parris won 6 starts... Another starter of mine, who had a similar ERA and WHIP, went 0-31.
But my point is, I think all these stats work together...none of them say a whole lot as raw numbers.
IPs are big too--for starters. I think in the long run, having a workhorse out there is very helpful.
January 08, 2004 at 02:26AM View BBCode
I think all these stats have to be taken together--one is not more important than another...or not greatly. I'd say WHIP, ERA, and W-L record have to be up there...but it's still impossible to analyze effectively if you don't know what the run support is. A guy with a low WHIP and a relatively high ERA is probably giving up a lot of big home runs, while a guy with a higher WHIP but decent ERA is cagey enough to get out of the jams he makes for himself. But ultimately, I think the W-L record says a lot...I mean, if your team scores 2 runs a game, you're going to have a bad W-L no matter who you are, but when compared to the run support it can tell you whether the guy ultimately gets it done or not.I had a guy named Will Parris who won 20 games in the DML. His ERA was well over 4.00, but he was the only other guy to win 20 games. We had a good offense, but he just seemed to get the job done when he really had to. And that held: In the Champion's league, where I went 22-140, Parris won 6 starts... Another starter of mine, who had a similar ERA and WHIP, went 0-31.
But my point is, I think all these stats work together...none of them say a whole lot as raw numbers.
IPs are big too--for starters. I think in the long run, having a workhorse out there is very helpful.
DrDiamond
Shandler's come up with three ratings for pitchers which, when considered together, provide a top-drawer analysis of a pitcher, any pitcher. They are a measure of the pitcher as an individual, factoring out as much of the team influence on stats as possible.
The three ratings are:
Control: Walks times 9 divided by innings pitched.
Dominance: Strikeouts times 9 divided by innings pitched.
Command: strikeouts divided by walks.
Major League averages for 2003 for each rating are:
Control- 3.3. Dominance- 6.5 Command- 1.9.
In other words, an average MLB pitcher walks a little over three batters per nine innings, strikes out six-and-a-half per nine, and has almost twice as many strikeouts as walks.
Try rating a few pitchers using these standards; you'll separate the wheat from the chaff in no time.
January 08, 2004 at 04:33AM View BBCode
Some of you may be familiar with the work of Ron Shandler, the founder and publisher of Baseball Forecaster. This guy has been evaluating major leaguers and publishing the results for eighteen years, and he's got as good a track record as there is. He's even read by front-office people in MLB, including Theo Epstein.Shandler's come up with three ratings for pitchers which, when considered together, provide a top-drawer analysis of a pitcher, any pitcher. They are a measure of the pitcher as an individual, factoring out as much of the team influence on stats as possible.
The three ratings are:
Control: Walks times 9 divided by innings pitched.
Dominance: Strikeouts times 9 divided by innings pitched.
Command: strikeouts divided by walks.
Major League averages for 2003 for each rating are:
Control- 3.3. Dominance- 6.5 Command- 1.9.
In other words, an average MLB pitcher walks a little over three batters per nine innings, strikes out six-and-a-half per nine, and has almost twice as many strikeouts as walks.
Try rating a few pitchers using these standards; you'll separate the wheat from the chaff in no time.
sycophantman
In fact, I started this post in order to figure a good way to figure the ranking of all the pitchers and hitters in my league and figured I'd go get some advice, so that helps a lot. :)
Any good formulae for hitting that hadn't been mentioned on the corresponding post?
January 08, 2004 at 04:49AM View BBCode
The doctor is on the case, thanks!In fact, I started this post in order to figure a good way to figure the ranking of all the pitchers and hitters in my league and figured I'd go get some advice, so that helps a lot. :)
Any good formulae for hitting that hadn't been mentioned on the corresponding post?
happy
January 08, 2004 at 08:00PM View BBCode
that is really cool. maybe tyson could put up a "dominance" "control" and "command" rankings on the rankings page.
sycophantman
Yup, I do stats for all the teams in my league, I'm a dork.
At least the other owners seem to like it...
January 08, 2004 at 08:04PM View BBCode
I'll probably use it for the end-of-season stat report, makes it easier for record keeping.Yup, I do stats for all the teams in my league, I'm a dork.
At least the other owners seem to like it...
sycophantman
January 09, 2004 at 04:00AM View BBCode
I'm sure i'll do it for the off-topic league, whenever it gets off the ground.:)Pages: 1