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DwightKSchrute
if you believe so steadfastly that so many of them used, then why do you believe so steadfastly that junior did not? I don't.
He's just the example most used and I would tend to agree that it doesn't appear he used. However, if evidence came out against him I wouldn't be totally shocked. I was just curious what examples you had of players you thought were clean and good.
May 07, 2009 at 07:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
Originally posted by DwightKSchrute
[Edited on 5-7-2009 by tm4559]
Who Tim? Besides Griffey there aren't many I can't think of many. My guess is that around 80% of the league has used at some point.
if you believe so steadfastly that so many of them used, then why do you believe so steadfastly that junior did not? I don't.
He's just the example most used and I would tend to agree that it doesn't appear he used. However, if evidence came out against him I wouldn't be totally shocked. I was just curious what examples you had of players you thought were clean and good.
tm4559
maybe a bunch of pitchers, greg maddux and any other number of others come to mind.
or maybe i am just naive. maybe there was so much money on the line, that everybody just hauled off and injected themselves with chemicals that are were known to be less than good for your health, and shrink your balls in addition to that.
maybe everybody who we thought was a decent player just gave up every notion they ever had about doing things the right way, or being honest, or playing fair, and just said, "the hell with it, i am taking this stuff." maybe everybody had the exact same moral code as jose canseco.
i certainly don't want to think it was like that, but i can see how some folks might think it.
May 07, 2009 at 07:50PM View BBCode
maybe cal ripken. maybe derek jeter. maybe bobby abreu or vlad guerro or albert puljos. maybe chipper jones, or maybe fred mcgriff, or maybe sean casey, or maybe adam dunn, or maybe, i don't know, a whole load of players whose names i just can't think of right now.maybe a bunch of pitchers, greg maddux and any other number of others come to mind.
or maybe i am just naive. maybe there was so much money on the line, that everybody just hauled off and injected themselves with chemicals that are were known to be less than good for your health, and shrink your balls in addition to that.
maybe everybody who we thought was a decent player just gave up every notion they ever had about doing things the right way, or being honest, or playing fair, and just said, "the hell with it, i am taking this stuff." maybe everybody had the exact same moral code as jose canseco.
i certainly don't want to think it was like that, but i can see how some folks might think it.
FuriousGiorge
May 07, 2009 at 08:02PM View BBCode
The potential side effects of using performance-enhancers have been greatly exaggerated.
ironhorse2ko
May 07, 2009 at 08:03PM View BBCode
I agree with an earlier point made that Manny probably assumed that his doctor knew what was good and what was bad. As he said he passed his other tests. But then again to be safe, he should have doubled checked to see if his doctor knew was was banned and what wasn't. You want to give Manny the benefit of doubt, but again he has the knowledge of what is banned and now has to pay the price.
FuriousGiorge
May 07, 2009 at 08:05PM View BBCode
Can you picture a reason for why Manny's doctor would prescribe HCG for him? Is he trying to get pregnant?
FuriousGiorge
May 07, 2009 at 08:07PM View BBCode
(Maybe "Manny being Manny" includes not knowing how babies are made.)
tm4559
all that i do not actually find unlikely. because doctors are people, and they like money too. and manny has a fairly well documented history of being a little bit clueless. so he got suspended. there it is. and he tested positive. there that is. no HOF. the moldy museum will have to be content with sammy sosa, no positive test.
May 07, 2009 at 08:10PM View BBCode
it seems to have some efficacy in weight management regimens, along with proper diet. these statements have not been evaluated by the FDA. the safe bet is to assume it was a masker, the doctor a hack who profits from helping players mask, and that said doctor and manny were clueless enough to not know this thing would show up on a test, and that it was banned.all that i do not actually find unlikely. because doctors are people, and they like money too. and manny has a fairly well documented history of being a little bit clueless. so he got suspended. there it is. and he tested positive. there that is. no HOF. the moldy museum will have to be content with sammy sosa, no positive test.
FuriousGiorge
May 07, 2009 at 08:15PM View BBCode
Whatever. We're not going to do the Hall of Fame thing again, right? Because that is just so, so, so boring.
jchelland
May 07, 2009 at 08:17PM View BBCode
I am already bored so lets do it. or something else. either way
FuriousGiorge
May 07, 2009 at 08:20PM View BBCode
The worst thing about this whole steroid mess is how sanctimonious people get about the stupid records and stupid Hall of Fame. If this was about trying to protect adolescents from feeling like they need to use in order to compete, then that would be one thing (adults can, with some caveats, use steroids and come out perfectly fine, but kids can censored themselves up really bad with them.) And sometimes people even throw that up as a smokescreen, but it's obvious that this whole thing is about grown-ass men whose lives lose meaning if they can't accurately count how many times some censored hit the ball out of the various ballparks in which he played. As if steroids are the only thing that anyone has ever done to get some advantage in accomplishing that stupid feat. If I have to hear "baseball is about the numbers" or some variation thereof one more time, I'm going to punch an old lady in the face.
jchelland
Griffey is missing time with the M's due to a "colon condition". That is brillant.
May 07, 2009 at 08:21PM View BBCode
How about this.....Griffey is missing time with the M's due to a "colon condition". That is brillant.
tm4559
are you trying to tell me that commercial with the statue crumbling is horsehit? because next you will be telling me that ross never loved rachel.
May 07, 2009 at 08:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
The potential side effects of using performance-enhancers have been greatly exaggerated.
are you trying to tell me that commercial with the statue crumbling is horsehit? because next you will be telling me that ross never loved rachel.
tm4559
can we punch derek's face instead of an old lady?
May 07, 2009 at 08:23PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
yeah, sammy's not going in either.
can we punch derek's face instead of an old lady?
FuriousGiorge
"This is ancient Earth's most foolish program! Why does Ross, the largest Friend, not simply eat the other five?"
May 07, 2009 at 08:24PM View BBCode
I can punch his Canadian face."This is ancient Earth's most foolish program! Why does Ross, the largest Friend, not simply eat the other five?"
tm4559
they pipe in sunshine to your part of canada don't they?
May 07, 2009 at 08:25PM View BBCode
*giggle*they pipe in sunshine to your part of canada don't they?
dirtdevil
at the moment they're piping in rain, but occasionally we get the sunshine florida doesn't feel they need at the moment.
(how do you know i'm not an old woman?)
May 07, 2009 at 08:29PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
*giggle*
they pipe in sunshine to your part of canada don't they?
at the moment they're piping in rain, but occasionally we get the sunshine florida doesn't feel they need at the moment.
(how do you know i'm not an old woman?)
DwightKSchrute
I also think that there is another set of players who felt like morally they HAD to use. They believed "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". Which is a concept that originated in baseball. Also, when this all started it wasn't even against the rules of the game.
To say that the players should have known better is ignoring the whole concept of proffesional sports. Sports are all about atheletes sacrificing their bodies for the game, the fans, fame, entertainment, or a big payday. Whatever you want to call what their motivation sports take a toll on the body. We glorify Aaron Rowand planting his face in the wall or Derek Jeter leaving two pints of blood in the forth row. We call those things great plays because the player sacrificed himself for the team. Now I'm not saying these things are completely equal but it isn't difficult to see how players could convince themselves that the risks invovled in steroid use are a similar sacrifce. They are only risking their own bodies for the good of the team. You wouldn't tell a highschool kid to seriously injure himself to make a play anymore than you would tell him to roid up.
Also add to this the large number of narcisistic players who would do anything to advance themselves reguardless of risk or appearance. (see A-rod)
May 07, 2009 at 08:32PM View BBCode
I certainly see what you're saying but I do think that in the face of that opportunity and under that pressure your average man would abandon their morals. I think it would take a person of outstanding moral fiber (which is why I agree with you on Sean Casey) to do it the right way amidst that culture.I also think that there is another set of players who felt like morally they HAD to use. They believed "If you ain't cheating, you ain't trying". Which is a concept that originated in baseball. Also, when this all started it wasn't even against the rules of the game.
To say that the players should have known better is ignoring the whole concept of proffesional sports. Sports are all about atheletes sacrificing their bodies for the game, the fans, fame, entertainment, or a big payday. Whatever you want to call what their motivation sports take a toll on the body. We glorify Aaron Rowand planting his face in the wall or Derek Jeter leaving two pints of blood in the forth row. We call those things great plays because the player sacrificed himself for the team. Now I'm not saying these things are completely equal but it isn't difficult to see how players could convince themselves that the risks invovled in steroid use are a similar sacrifce. They are only risking their own bodies for the good of the team. You wouldn't tell a highschool kid to seriously injure himself to make a play anymore than you would tell him to roid up.
Also add to this the large number of narcisistic players who would do anything to advance themselves reguardless of risk or appearance. (see A-rod)
bobcat73
May 08, 2009 at 01:06AM View formatted
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I am looking forward to the Dodger fans standing up for Manny, after years of making fun of Giant fans for doing the same thing with Barry.
bobcat73
pay attention. some old lady is getting punch in the face.
May 08, 2009 at 01:07AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
the jersey numbers, yes.
pay attention. some old lady is getting punch in the face.
bobcat73
by Avg. you mean dirt poor kid in a 3rd world country then I agree. If you mean a guy like me punching a clock, a stupid 9-5 ham and egg'r, then I agree.
However if you mean someone like Sean Casey then I totally disagree.
May 08, 2009 at 01:10AM View BBCode
Originally posted by DwightKSchrute
I certainly see what you're saying but I do think that in the face of that opportunity and under that pressure your average man would abandon their morals.
by Avg. you mean dirt poor kid in a 3rd world country then I agree. If you mean a guy like me punching a clock, a stupid 9-5 ham and egg'r, then I agree.
However if you mean someone like Sean Casey then I totally disagree.