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Old Forum Index » Sim Forums » Baseball Enhancements » 49 wins in a season? Total BS exploit.
redcped
I can't say I complained about it, but I did note that it was pretty much farcical.
August 01, 2013 at 11:18PM View BBCode
I had a SP with F health pitch close to 20 seasons without missing a start.I can't say I complained about it, but I did note that it was pretty much farcical.
paulcaraccio
A probably crazy idea that I hatched was that if I had a dominant ace on a real MLB team, I would consider holding him out until the 3rd inning, and letting him pitch the final 7, instead of the first 7. Send in an opener (instead of a closer), if he gets bombed, you can save the ace for tomorrow, if it's a game, bring in the Kershaw in the 3rd, and he takes you home. How crazy/stupid is that? Aren't the latter innings more important than the early ones? The best pitchers have always started the games because they used to usually finish the games too. Nowadays with the pitch counts and Tommy Johns and all, these guys can't ever pitch 9 innings, so if they're only gonna go 7, why not the last 7 instead of the first 7?
August 02, 2013 at 06:52AM View BBCode
i went to the Dodgers-Yankees game in LA yesterday. Kershaw pitched, dominated for 8 innings, then left, and the Yankees won in the 9th off some couple of relievers. It got me thinking more about this topic, and more about how pitching staffs are used.A probably crazy idea that I hatched was that if I had a dominant ace on a real MLB team, I would consider holding him out until the 3rd inning, and letting him pitch the final 7, instead of the first 7. Send in an opener (instead of a closer), if he gets bombed, you can save the ace for tomorrow, if it's a game, bring in the Kershaw in the 3rd, and he takes you home. How crazy/stupid is that? Aren't the latter innings more important than the early ones? The best pitchers have always started the games because they used to usually finish the games too. Nowadays with the pitch counts and Tommy Johns and all, these guys can't ever pitch 9 innings, so if they're only gonna go 7, why not the last 7 instead of the first 7?
ccox
August 02, 2013 at 12:14PM View BBCode
That's an interesting idea, Paul. Same thing happened in Boston last night. King Felix pitches 7 great innings, leaves, and the relievers manage to get blasted for 7 runs in 2 innings.
thatrogue
August 02, 2013 at 02:16PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevilOF's converting to SS in the majors...any player converting to C in the majors... There are all kinds of "unnatural" issues that owners overlook all the time.
I think it's partly because the SP abuse looks normal when it's happening. He starts every 5 days, which of course he should and he doesn't get hurt, which we like. he pitches 7-8 innings every time out, which of course our ace should. Then at the end of the year when he has racked up 290 IP, we chalk it up to smart team management. When a RP starts pitching 2-3 innings three days of every four it looks odd, because none of our team's real life relievers can do that. It sticks out so someone calls BS on it.
SB abuse most people don't even see.
dirtdevil
I don't disagree. they don't keep stats for that though, maybe that's why people don't get upset.
August 02, 2013 at 03:12PM View BBCode
Originally posted by thatrogue
Originally posted by dirtdevilOF's converting to SS in the majors...any player converting to C in the majors... There are all kinds of "unnatural" issues that owners overlook all the time.
I think it's partly because the SP abuse looks normal when it's happening. He starts every 5 days, which of course he should and he doesn't get hurt, which we like. he pitches 7-8 innings every time out, which of course our ace should. Then at the end of the year when he has racked up 290 IP, we chalk it up to smart team management. When a RP starts pitching 2-3 innings three days of every four it looks odd, because none of our team's real life relievers can do that. It sticks out so someone calls BS on it.
SB abuse most people don't even see.
I don't disagree. they don't keep stats for that though, maybe that's why people don't get upset.
tm4559
What, exactly, have you got against.........FUN?
most folks like fun. try it. its.......well. fun.
August 02, 2013 at 03:38PM View BBCode
here is the thing. this is a computer game. folks that want to play by the Holy Rules of Whatever (no lefthanded non first basemen infielders or catchers, no position converting in the majors, no pitcher abuse, no this, no freaking that) should find a league of like minded folks and do that. en.......joy. nobody wants to take that from you. and they should just stop complaining about the other stuff. the game is what is. messing around with this kind of silly stuff is part of the fun. my question, really, has always been this:What, exactly, have you got against.........FUN?
most folks like fun. try it. its.......well. fun.
eragon
Agreed but a pitcher with 49 wins in one season is fun for nobody except that pitchers owner.
August 02, 2013 at 06:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
here is the thing. this is a computer game. folks that want to play by the Holy Rules of Whatever (no lefthanded non first basemen infielders or catchers, no position converting in the majors, no pitcher abuse, no this, no freaking that) should find a league of like minded folks and do that. en.......joy. nobody wants to take that from you. and they should just stop complaining about the other stuff. the game is what is. messing around with this kind of silly stuff is part of the fun. my question, really, has always been this:
What, exactly, have you got against.........FUN?
most folks like fun. try it. its.......well. fun.
Agreed but a pitcher with 49 wins in one season is fun for nobody except that pitchers owner.
eragon
Interesting idea. BTW does anyone know why Kershaw was not pinch hit for in the 8th and was pulled for the ninth inning anyway?
August 02, 2013 at 06:22PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
i went to the Dodgers-Yankees game in LA yesterday. Kershaw pitched, dominated for 8 innings, then left, and the Yankees won in the 9th off some couple of relievers. It got me thinking more about this topic, and more about how pitching staffs are used.
A probably crazy idea that I hatched was that if I had a dominant ace on a real MLB team, I would consider holding him out until the 3rd inning, and letting him pitch the final 7, instead of the first 7. Send in an opener (instead of a closer), if he gets bombed, you can save the ace for tomorrow, if it's a game, bring in the Kershaw in the 3rd, and he takes you home. How crazy/stupid is that? Aren't the latter innings more important than the early ones? The best pitchers have always started the games because they used to usually finish the games too. Nowadays with the pitch counts and Tommy Johns and all, these guys can't ever pitch 9 innings, so if they're only gonna go 7, why not the last 7 instead of the first 7?
Interesting idea. BTW does anyone know why Kershaw was not pinch hit for in the 8th and was pulled for the ninth inning anyway?
dirtdevil
that's not really true. there are entire leagues that are/have been dedicated to just such endeavours where the response to that, if anything, would be a tip of the cap.
August 02, 2013 at 06:28PM View BBCode
Originally posted by eragon
Originally posted by tm4559
here is the thing. this is a computer game. folks that want to play by the Holy Rules of Whatever (no lefthanded non first basemen infielders or catchers, no position converting in the majors, no pitcher abuse, no this, no freaking that) should find a league of like minded folks and do that. en.......joy. nobody wants to take that from you. and they should just stop complaining about the other stuff. the game is what is. messing around with this kind of silly stuff is part of the fun. my question, really, has always been this:
What, exactly, have you got against.........FUN?
most folks like fun. try it. its.......well. fun.
Agreed but a pitcher with 49 wins in one season is fun for nobody except that pitchers owner.
that's not really true. there are entire leagues that are/have been dedicated to just such endeavours where the response to that, if anything, would be a tip of the cap.
dirtdevil
it's because don mattingly saw all the pinstripes on the field and thought he was in the AL.
August 02, 2013 at 06:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by eragon
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
i went to the Dodgers-Yankees game in LA yesterday. Kershaw pitched, dominated for 8 innings, then left, and the Yankees won in the 9th off some couple of relievers. It got me thinking more about this topic, and more about how pitching staffs are used.
A probably crazy idea that I hatched was that if I had a dominant ace on a real MLB team, I would consider holding him out until the 3rd inning, and letting him pitch the final 7, instead of the first 7. Send in an opener (instead of a closer), if he gets bombed, you can save the ace for tomorrow, if it's a game, bring in the Kershaw in the 3rd, and he takes you home. How crazy/stupid is that? Aren't the latter innings more important than the early ones? The best pitchers have always started the games because they used to usually finish the games too. Nowadays with the pitch counts and Tommy Johns and all, these guys can't ever pitch 9 innings, so if they're only gonna go 7, why not the last 7 instead of the first 7?
Interesting idea. BTW does anyone know why Kershaw was not pinch hit for in the 8th and was pulled for the ninth inning anyway?
it's because don mattingly saw all the pinstripes on the field and thought he was in the AL.
tm4559
(this stuff is harmless, ok? how does it hurt anybody? mess up the single season wins record? who the hell cares? come on now.)
August 02, 2013 at 06:44PM View formatted
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not since shep went into the sunset with all his stuff about "vulture wins" has there been such an awesome, crackling discussion.
(this stuff is harmless, ok? how does it hurt anybody? mess up the single season wins record? who the hell cares? come on now.)
paulcaraccio
August 02, 2013 at 06:58PM View BBCode
Evidently Kershaw is a prodigious bunter, so he remained in the game to perform his greatest skill before leaving so someone else could take care of the pitching nonsense.
paulcaraccio
August 02, 2013 at 07:00PM View BBCode
tm, this thread and the other one have shown several people who very much care about single-season wins records. Asking "who the hell cares" about it is kind of a strange question at this point.
eragon
The thrill of watching it slowly trickle down the baseline is unmatched in any sport.
August 02, 2013 at 07:42PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
pitchers bunting. EXCITEMENT AT ITS FINEST!
The thrill of watching it slowly trickle down the baseline is unmatched in any sport.
dirtdevil
August 02, 2013 at 08:09PM View BBCode
is it fair? is it foul? did he miss it entirely? THE SUSPENSE!
ccox
Personally, I've never checked to see if my catcher's a leftie. I don't care too much if WAR shows in stats or if the cards show the occasional player wearing glasses. Maybe these things would make the game more fun or realistic for some but that would only be icing on the cake. With the exploit, the cake wasn't even a cake. It was missing egg (which was instead on anyone's face who came here for realism, or something close to it).
Bunting's underrated, btw, and should factor heavily in the MVP vote.
August 02, 2013 at 09:04PM View BBCode
tm to me 49 wins in a season is tantamount to 90 home runs. Ridiculous and unprecedented. The sim has been fairly streamlined so the latter doesn't occur. Now they're fixing it stop the former. Awesome.Personally, I've never checked to see if my catcher's a leftie. I don't care too much if WAR shows in stats or if the cards show the occasional player wearing glasses. Maybe these things would make the game more fun or realistic for some but that would only be icing on the cake. With the exploit, the cake wasn't even a cake. It was missing egg (which was instead on anyone's face who came here for realism, or something close to it).
Bunting's underrated, btw, and should factor heavily in the MVP vote.
tm4559
(the code that lets the sps pitch all those innings, season after season is stupid, its unrealistic, its impossible, its dumb. ok? it is. no real pitcher can do it. the ones that try? are finished, early.)
August 03, 2013 at 03:01PM View BBCode
you missed the point. only fixing some abuse and leaving other, just as bad abuse alone is worse than fixing nothing.(the code that lets the sps pitch all those innings, season after season is stupid, its unrealistic, its impossible, its dumb. ok? it is. no real pitcher can do it. the ones that try? are finished, early.)
paulcaraccio
August 03, 2013 at 06:50PM View BBCode
i couldn't disagree more. Letting SPs pitch like 280 innings instead of 240 or whatever ML pitchers usually do is a very minor difference compared to 49 wins instead of like 22. Anyway who cares about innings? We can certainly wait to fix those...the wins had to be fixed now. Fixing the wins without fixing the innings is certainly not "worse than fixing nothing".
Beanballs
The only relievers that even comes close to duplicating this was Mike Marshall, who was 15-12 with a record 208 1/3 relief innings in 1974, or Roy Face who was 18-1 in 1959. Heck even Phil Regan was nicknamed the Vulture for picking up wins late in the games for the Dodgers in the 60's, and he was only 14-1 in 1966, his best season!!!
I have to completely agree with Paul, this was a major loophole that needed to be fixed, and thanks to the admins it will be. Starters logging many innings has been an integral part of the game that the sim is based on, after all the game here is modeled after the 1950's and 1960's (with some adaptations to add elements of the modern game), so honestly I have no problem with starter usage...
August 03, 2013 at 07:42PM View BBCode
Yeah I have to disagree as well, take a look at the careers of workhorse pitchers like Jim Palmer, Nolan Ryan, Gaylord Perry, Fergie Jenkins, Mike Cuellar, Wilbur Wood, Mickey Lolich, Steve Carlton, Phil Niekro, and many more who regularly worked 270-300+ innings a season in the 60's and 70's. I know they started more games with a 4 man rotation, but they logged the innings. There is no precedent for 49 wins in a season, and those of us that care about records/stats/awards do not have the ability to put an asterisk next to those, they are just so far from anything that has ever been done since the dead ball era.The only relievers that even comes close to duplicating this was Mike Marshall, who was 15-12 with a record 208 1/3 relief innings in 1974, or Roy Face who was 18-1 in 1959. Heck even Phil Regan was nicknamed the Vulture for picking up wins late in the games for the Dodgers in the 60's, and he was only 14-1 in 1966, his best season!!!
I have to completely agree with Paul, this was a major loophole that needed to be fixed, and thanks to the admins it will be. Starters logging many innings has been an integral part of the game that the sim is based on, after all the game here is modeled after the 1950's and 1960's (with some adaptations to add elements of the modern game), so honestly I have no problem with starter usage...
tm4559
August 04, 2013 at 12:17AM View BBCode
wins..........is.........a...........dumb..............stat. it doesn't matter if a starter gets credit for 25 or a reliever gets credit for 45. a pitcher does not "win" anything. its a meaningless number.
tm4559
August 04, 2013 at 12:19AM View BBCode
the simulaton is supposed to be modeling modern baseball, not the fifities, not the sixties, none of that. a simulated pitcher can pitch 300 innngs for 15 seasons in a row. and get better each year. no real pitcher can do that, ok? they would be out of the game with a destroyed arm after three seasons.
WillyD
Injuries are still with us, and I'd argue have increased, despite all the extra precautions. The reasons for this are complex, but it's not the innings in most cases that cause injury.
August 04, 2013 at 02:31AM View BBCode
I disagree Tim. The fact is, no one tries to pitch a guy 300 innings because of the fear of injuries. And yet, they are dropping like flies anyways. Some pitchers can pitch 300 innings and some can't. These days though no one is going to let anyone even try it.Injuries are still with us, and I'd argue have increased, despite all the extra precautions. The reasons for this are complex, but it's not the innings in most cases that cause injury.
eragon
August 04, 2013 at 05:07AM View BBCode
As stated by Willy D, Paul, and others, pitchers have started 40 games in a season, pitchers have thrown 30 CGs and thrown 300 innings. Perhaps it does not happen now but as SD is set in 1950 and there is no DH it is quite understandable to see numbers like 25 wins, 15 CGs and 300 IP. On the other hand the last pitcher to win more than 40 games in year was Jack Chesbro for the Highlanders (now the Yankees) back in 1904 when he started 51 games, with 48 CGs and 454 IP. Obviously that is completely impossible to do these days and totally ruins the realistic baseball experience that we pay for. In MLB, there never has been a reliever that won 20 games in a season. The MLB record is 18 by Elroy Face of the 1959 Pittsburgh Pirates who pitched in 57 games. A relief pitcher has never won 20 games. 49 wins are a JOKE. Tm people care very much about win totals, just like they care about HR records or strikeout records.