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Cubsfan13
August 19, 2004 at 12:36AM View BBCode
Im bumping this. Its funny how high the hopes were for the Orioles then.
Duff77
August 19, 2004 at 05:13AM View formatted
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I never thought the O's were much more than a .500 team, mainly because the pitching was so young. And I didn't think Javy Lopez would put up the kind of numbers he had the year before. Though I was probably a bit overly hopeful myself at the time. Even though we're under .500, this is the most interesting team we've had in B-more in a long time.
skierdude44
One thing I would like to point out about the wild card is that it does keep the interest in cities where their team has no chance (or very little chance) to catch the division leader because one team ran away with the division. For example the Yankees have an 8 game lead over the Red Sox. And while that isnt an unreachable deficit for Boston it is unlikely that they will catch the Yankees. In cases like that the fans might think what is the point of watching the games if there is no point to watching the games because the team will not catch the division leader if there was no wild card.
Overall though I agree. There are teams that win the Wild card that are vastly inferior to the rest of the teams in the playoffs but get hot and win the World Series. Everyone knows that the Yankees were a better team than the Marlins but the combination of the Marlins being on a hot streak and the Yankees coming off a very draining series resulted in the Marlins winning. If the wild card didnt exist we might have had a Yankees-Cubs World Series which would have been a very interesting series. But, we also wouldnt have had the Yankees-Red Sox ALCS and without the Wild Card we wouldnt have any division rivals facing off in the playoffs. Series like Yankees-Red Sox or Cubs-Cardinals are very interesting but we would miss out on them. So I'm torn. On one hand the Wild Card waters down the division races and lets inferior teams into the playoffs, but on the other hand it does allow us to see division rivals square off in the playoffs and also allows a team that was better than one of the other division winners but had the misfortune of being grouped in a division with a more dominant team get into the playoffs.
August 19, 2004 at 03:24PM View BBCode
I think there were like a total of three posts about the DH and then the rest of the thread became about the Wild card and the rest of baseball's problems.One thing I would like to point out about the wild card is that it does keep the interest in cities where their team has no chance (or very little chance) to catch the division leader because one team ran away with the division. For example the Yankees have an 8 game lead over the Red Sox. And while that isnt an unreachable deficit for Boston it is unlikely that they will catch the Yankees. In cases like that the fans might think what is the point of watching the games if there is no point to watching the games because the team will not catch the division leader if there was no wild card.
Overall though I agree. There are teams that win the Wild card that are vastly inferior to the rest of the teams in the playoffs but get hot and win the World Series. Everyone knows that the Yankees were a better team than the Marlins but the combination of the Marlins being on a hot streak and the Yankees coming off a very draining series resulted in the Marlins winning. If the wild card didnt exist we might have had a Yankees-Cubs World Series which would have been a very interesting series. But, we also wouldnt have had the Yankees-Red Sox ALCS and without the Wild Card we wouldnt have any division rivals facing off in the playoffs. Series like Yankees-Red Sox or Cubs-Cardinals are very interesting but we would miss out on them. So I'm torn. On one hand the Wild Card waters down the division races and lets inferior teams into the playoffs, but on the other hand it does allow us to see division rivals square off in the playoffs and also allows a team that was better than one of the other division winners but had the misfortune of being grouped in a division with a more dominant team get into the playoffs.
Unclescam777
You know when baseball fans argue with football fans we'll commonly hear how boring baseball is. But the diehard baseball fans will say how every pitch is a battle, and on every play there are so many different outcomes, blah blah blah. Yet half of these people who point out that strategy is why they love baseball are in favor of the DH, which takes away some of it. So you like baseball because it's a thinking man's game, but you'd prefer if thinking was kept to a minimum? The arguement for the DH just confuses me.
Plus, I hate half players. DH is half of a player and a pitcher who doesn't hit is half of a player. It's so easy for a pitcher to give the other team some chin music when they know they don't have to step up to the plate. The best example I can think of is Pedro Martinez. He's always been an aggressive pitcher but ever since he went to the AL he's been more of a headhunter. Some say the same about Roger Clemons settling down in the NL, but I don't follow him so I wouldn't know. No DH just makes everything more alive.
August 19, 2004 at 04:16PM View BBCode
There's not much I can really add since every baseball fan knows the arguments for and against the DH. I personally despise the DH, then again I'm a National League fan. I just prefer games with more strategy involved.You know when baseball fans argue with football fans we'll commonly hear how boring baseball is. But the diehard baseball fans will say how every pitch is a battle, and on every play there are so many different outcomes, blah blah blah. Yet half of these people who point out that strategy is why they love baseball are in favor of the DH, which takes away some of it. So you like baseball because it's a thinking man's game, but you'd prefer if thinking was kept to a minimum? The arguement for the DH just confuses me.
Plus, I hate half players. DH is half of a player and a pitcher who doesn't hit is half of a player. It's so easy for a pitcher to give the other team some chin music when they know they don't have to step up to the plate. The best example I can think of is Pedro Martinez. He's always been an aggressive pitcher but ever since he went to the AL he's been more of a headhunter. Some say the same about Roger Clemons settling down in the NL, but I don't follow him so I wouldn't know. No DH just makes everything more alive.
skierdude44
August 19, 2004 at 04:44PM View BBCode
Since I rarely see the Astros play I cant say if the Rocket has settled down or not. But if he has it may be as much due to the fact that he is 41 as much as it is to the fact that he has to hit. I dont mind the DH, but Im a Yankee fan so I am partial to the AL. I do like the strategy involved in baseball though, especially in the National League. When Joe Torre came to the Yankees he brought a lot of that NL strategy with him and they won 5 World Series. But they have gotten away from the stolen bases, hit and runs, bunts, etc. the last few years which makes you wonder if the National League strategy is more effective than the AL strategy. Of course it all comes down having the players to execute your strategy but the Yankees were very sucessful with that strategy and have just sat back and relied on the long ball the last few years which is a dangerous strategy IMO. If you are having an off day you dont have any other way to score runs, but if you play aggressive baseball and make things happen and make your outs productive ones you can still win when your offense is pretty much shut down.
Duff77
Skier's right on with this. Torre used something more of an NL strategy with the Yankees, at least in comparison to the strategy of a team like Boston. And it worked well because the Yankees didn't have a lot of super power bats back in the day. They had a bunch of good hitters and some speed, and they chose a strategy that was effective for their team. I think that's really what you have to do. I mean we're only talking about one hitter here. That's not enough to explain the entire difference in strategy between leagues. A lot of it is tradition and managerial stupidity.
As I said before, my main argument in favor of the DH is that I don't like seeing a good pitching performance cut short because of an offensive situation. I just...simply...HATE THAT. As for anything else, I see both sides and I honestly don't care. I think the split should be left the way it is.
With one exception: Pitchers should never bat in the All-Star game. That is the lamest BS imaginable.
August 19, 2004 at 08:55PM View BBCode
Frankly, I think the pitcher batting is only partially responsible for the differences in strategy between leagues. Most teams aren't stacked 1 through 9. Plenty of AL teams could stand to drop a bunt now and then (or hit and run, or something), but it still happens much more infrequently. The DH may be the route of this style difference, but I still don't think it makes much sense, even in the AL. The style you use should depend more on the makeup of your team than whether or not you have a DH.Skier's right on with this. Torre used something more of an NL strategy with the Yankees, at least in comparison to the strategy of a team like Boston. And it worked well because the Yankees didn't have a lot of super power bats back in the day. They had a bunch of good hitters and some speed, and they chose a strategy that was effective for their team. I think that's really what you have to do. I mean we're only talking about one hitter here. That's not enough to explain the entire difference in strategy between leagues. A lot of it is tradition and managerial stupidity.
As I said before, my main argument in favor of the DH is that I don't like seeing a good pitching performance cut short because of an offensive situation. I just...simply...HATE THAT. As for anything else, I see both sides and I honestly don't care. I think the split should be left the way it is.
With one exception: Pitchers should never bat in the All-Star game. That is the lamest BS imaginable.
Unclescam777
In the end AL players have the chance to come out healthier while their team gets virtually all the benefits of the player. He still hits helping the team but he doesn't risk injury or fatigue as much. Of course this theory only counts if they don't have a true DH, but use the DH spot to rest players.
August 19, 2004 at 11:01PM View BBCode
With a name like Cubsfan I could have sworn your favored the AL :P Really my only argument against the DH is I like all players to be complete. I want everybody to field, throw, hit, and run the bases. I have a problem with what I call half players. The DH gives the AL an unfair advantage in the sense that they can keep their star healthy by playing him in the DH spot if he's suffering from a nagging injury. Try to imagine if say Mike Piazza played in the AL. He could catch like normal but he'd also be able to play when he gets hurt from a foul ball off his hand, or he'd be able to play a day game after a night game. The NL has a disadvantage because certain players won't play in day games after night games, and if they have a small injury the manager usually has to rest them to prevent further injury.In the end AL players have the chance to come out healthier while their team gets virtually all the benefits of the player. He still hits helping the team but he doesn't risk injury or fatigue as much. Of course this theory only counts if they don't have a true DH, but use the DH spot to rest players.
Unclescam777
August 19, 2004 at 11:14PM View BBCode
yes I saw that, I'll try to have an offer on your desk by tomorrow morning. I'm still doing a bit of thinking of how much I'm willing to give for that player....you know, determining value, need, and all that junk.
skierdude44
But your point about guys with nagging injuries playing DH is certainly valid. The Yankees will occasionally DH Gary Sheffield when his shoulder starts acting up and put Ruben Sierra out in right. They DH Giambi as much as possible due to his inconsistent defense and health problems. Guys like Ruben Sierra hang on as DH because they can still hit although their speed and defense is gone (I love watching Ruben try and track down fly balls in the outfield, its like watching someone running in quick sand). But most DH are older players that are just hanging on to their careers. Most of the big hitters in the AL are regular position players. Only Edgar Martinez has made a career out of being a full time DH. I think that the biggest advantage it gives the AL is that they can pull another good hitter off the bench to pinch hit or something when they play in National League parks, but other than that that is really it. And most of the time the DH will be subbed into the lineup when they play in a National League park, like Giambi was for Nick Johnson in the World Series.
It is dumb to play a certain way depending on what league you are in. Your strategy should be based on your personnel not which league you play in. There are some teams in the AL that use the NL style that they Yankees once used. Minnesota comes to mind. They arent a big power team but they dont have a lot of good on base guys either so the NL style can have some let downs for them too. The Yankees of the late 90's where a perfect example of how to run a baseball team IMO. I think that to be successful against top tier pitching you need to be aggressive, but patient. That means work the count and try to draw walks and foul off tough pitches and capitalize off mistake pitches. That also means that when you get a runner on, your first priority should be to advance him not try and knock in two runs with one swing. If you can hit a homer that is great but you shouldnt go out trying to hit every pitch out of the park. The other thing you need to do is create havoc on the bases. Steal a bag, hit and run, double steal, that kind of stuff. Those Yankee teams are a prime example of that and they were very successful with that technique. Torre still tries to do that alittle bit now, even though he doesnt have the personnel to fit that style of play anymore. Bernie has lost his speed and the rest of the players other than Cairo and Jeter are big power hitters and some dont have speed. But occassionally you will see Torre double steal. Hell Arod stole home about a month ago. That in my opinion is the best kind of baseball to play. I believe that the Yankees lost the World Series last year because they got away from that style of play. Dont get me wrong, Florida deserves a ton of credit. Florida pitched very well but when the Yankees did get runners on they didnt capitalize. They didnt move the guy over from 2nd to third and as a result they stranded a lot of runners and hit very poorly with RISP.
I also think that the AL teams are probably better suited to play "NL" style ball. What I mean by that is that they have 9 hitters instead of 8 hitters and a pitcher. Im sure that there are some pitchers that cant lay down bunts and cant hit behind runners and so on, but in the AL the hitters should be able to do those things and they have an extra power guy in the DH spot so they should be able to set up their power guys better if they chose to play that style. But I do enjoy watching an NL game for the added strategy as well. Sure if you play "NL" style baseball you add strategy to the game but the NL teams have to worry about pinch hitters more and be more selective about who they use out of their bullpen and double switches are more prominent. The only way to get that in the AL is to eliminate the DH.
August 20, 2004 at 12:28AM View BBCode
Well, it isnt really a common practice to play your starting catcher at DH on a day game after a night game. Torre always gives Posada the day off (unless he is needed in a crucial pinch hitting appearance in the late innings but even then he is reluctant to do that and only uses Posada as a last resort). Most AL managers usually give the catcher the day off. The reason for that is probably because there are very few good hitting catchers that even if you could put your starting catcher at DH your regular DH is probably a better hitter. Outside of Victor Martinez, Posada, and Varitek there are few big bats at the catcher spot in the AL.But your point about guys with nagging injuries playing DH is certainly valid. The Yankees will occasionally DH Gary Sheffield when his shoulder starts acting up and put Ruben Sierra out in right. They DH Giambi as much as possible due to his inconsistent defense and health problems. Guys like Ruben Sierra hang on as DH because they can still hit although their speed and defense is gone (I love watching Ruben try and track down fly balls in the outfield, its like watching someone running in quick sand). But most DH are older players that are just hanging on to their careers. Most of the big hitters in the AL are regular position players. Only Edgar Martinez has made a career out of being a full time DH. I think that the biggest advantage it gives the AL is that they can pull another good hitter off the bench to pinch hit or something when they play in National League parks, but other than that that is really it. And most of the time the DH will be subbed into the lineup when they play in a National League park, like Giambi was for Nick Johnson in the World Series.
It is dumb to play a certain way depending on what league you are in. Your strategy should be based on your personnel not which league you play in. There are some teams in the AL that use the NL style that they Yankees once used. Minnesota comes to mind. They arent a big power team but they dont have a lot of good on base guys either so the NL style can have some let downs for them too. The Yankees of the late 90's where a perfect example of how to run a baseball team IMO. I think that to be successful against top tier pitching you need to be aggressive, but patient. That means work the count and try to draw walks and foul off tough pitches and capitalize off mistake pitches. That also means that when you get a runner on, your first priority should be to advance him not try and knock in two runs with one swing. If you can hit a homer that is great but you shouldnt go out trying to hit every pitch out of the park. The other thing you need to do is create havoc on the bases. Steal a bag, hit and run, double steal, that kind of stuff. Those Yankee teams are a prime example of that and they were very successful with that technique. Torre still tries to do that alittle bit now, even though he doesnt have the personnel to fit that style of play anymore. Bernie has lost his speed and the rest of the players other than Cairo and Jeter are big power hitters and some dont have speed. But occassionally you will see Torre double steal. Hell Arod stole home about a month ago. That in my opinion is the best kind of baseball to play. I believe that the Yankees lost the World Series last year because they got away from that style of play. Dont get me wrong, Florida deserves a ton of credit. Florida pitched very well but when the Yankees did get runners on they didnt capitalize. They didnt move the guy over from 2nd to third and as a result they stranded a lot of runners and hit very poorly with RISP.
I also think that the AL teams are probably better suited to play "NL" style ball. What I mean by that is that they have 9 hitters instead of 8 hitters and a pitcher. Im sure that there are some pitchers that cant lay down bunts and cant hit behind runners and so on, but in the AL the hitters should be able to do those things and they have an extra power guy in the DH spot so they should be able to set up their power guys better if they chose to play that style. But I do enjoy watching an NL game for the added strategy as well. Sure if you play "NL" style baseball you add strategy to the game but the NL teams have to worry about pinch hitters more and be more selective about who they use out of their bullpen and double switches are more prominent. The only way to get that in the AL is to eliminate the DH.
Unclescam777
*sigh* I mostly agree with you skier. I can't explain because my computer hates when I say something important.
August 20, 2004 at 01:43AM View BBCode
bubblegum bubblegum damnit! Everytime I write a nice big reply my internet screws up and it doesn't post. I think something is wrong with my router.*sigh* I mostly agree with you skier. I can't explain because my computer hates when I say something important.
skierdude44
August 20, 2004 at 01:55AM View BBCode
Haha. I have had that happen to me a few times. Give your computer a smack. For some reason that always works when I am having problems with electronic devices...
Unclescam777
August 20, 2004 at 02:03AM View BBCode
That's how I get my CD player to work, by giving it a few good whacks
skierdude44
August 20, 2004 at 03:35AM View BBCode
Its strange how electronic equipment seems to always respond favorably to violence.
Unclescam777
August 20, 2004 at 03:42AM View BBCode
If cartoons have taught me anything it's that violence is always the answer ;)
drew
I laughed out loud.
August 20, 2004 at 03:49AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
I can't explain because my computer hates when I say something important.
I laughed out loud.
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