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lvnwrth
Totally, completely disagree with you on Pujols. His stats are very comparable to Lee's, and he's done it without Scott Rolen, Larry Walker, or Reggie Sanders for most of the year. Were it not for Pujols, the Cardinals would not be coasting in the NL Central.
Without Pujols this year the Cards would probably be the NL wild card and Houston would win the division. A valid argument can be made that Lee is still the NL MVP, but if Pujols wins it, it won't be "undeservedly" as someone put it.
September 08, 2005 at 08:17PM View BBCode
Originally posted by DeVeau31
The Braves would be nowhere without Jones, the Cards will still be great without Pujols this year.
The Red Sox would NOT be in 1st place without Ortiz, the Yankees would still struggle without ARod.
Totally, completely disagree with you on Pujols. His stats are very comparable to Lee's, and he's done it without Scott Rolen, Larry Walker, or Reggie Sanders for most of the year. Were it not for Pujols, the Cardinals would not be coasting in the NL Central.
Without Pujols this year the Cards would probably be the NL wild card and Houston would win the division. A valid argument can be made that Lee is still the NL MVP, but if Pujols wins it, it won't be "undeservedly" as someone put it.
ME
September 09, 2005 at 12:08AM View BBCode
Yes, it will, because only one player can deserve the award. He wouldn't be as underserving as Andruw Jones, but he sitll would be undeserving.
lvnwrth
If that's your semantic approach to the issue, fine. In that case, Pujols deserves it. Without Pujols, the Cardinals are not winning the NL Central. Without Lee the Cubs could still be mediocre.
September 09, 2005 at 12:16AM View BBCode
"Yes, it will, because only one player can deserve the award. He wouldn't be as underserving as Andruw Jones, but he sitll would be undeserving."If that's your semantic approach to the issue, fine. In that case, Pujols deserves it. Without Pujols, the Cardinals are not winning the NL Central. Without Lee the Cubs could still be mediocre.
ME
September 09, 2005 at 12:25AM View BBCode
Without Chris Carpenter the Cards would not be winning the central either. Without Roger Clemens the Astros would not be in the wild card race. Without Miguel Cabrera the Marlins would not be in the wild card race.
lvnwrth
If you want to argue for tossing Cabrera into the mix, I won't stop you. Since I give more weight to actually WINNING a divsion, rather than slipping in as the best of the losers, I'd still vote for Pujols, if I had a vote.
September 09, 2005 at 12:56AM View formatted
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RE: Clemens, Carpenter. You are correct, which is why they will likely finish 1-2 in the Cy Young voting, though Willis could certainly jump in there, too. Regardless, when was the last time a pitcher won the MVP? AL - Eckersley, 1992. NL - Gibson, 1968. So they aren't really germane to the discussion.
If you want to argue for tossing Cabrera into the mix, I won't stop you. Since I give more weight to actually WINNING a divsion, rather than slipping in as the best of the losers, I'd still vote for Pujols, if I had a vote.
FuriousGiorge
September 09, 2005 at 01:18AM View BBCode
Without Brian Giles the Padres would not be winning their division. Clearly, he should enter the MVP mix.
swerve
Pujols - .338/.433/.635/116R/39HR/106RBI
Lee - .344/.426/.671/107R/40HR/97RBI
September 09, 2005 at 03:39AM View BBCode
I want to now how Lee deserves it more than Pujols? I'm baffled.Pujols - .338/.433/.635/116R/39HR/106RBI
Lee - .344/.426/.671/107R/40HR/97RBI
ME
September 09, 2005 at 04:00AM View BBCode
Runs and RBIs are garbage statistics. Lee's OBP is a little worse but his SLG is better, and he's a much better defender.
swerve
Runs scored DO matter, that is what wins games, especially when you subtract HR's because that means a "lesser" player had to come through.
September 09, 2005 at 07:07AM View BBCode
Considering they both primarily play 1B(Lee for sure), defense is practically useless, typically the worst fielders end up at 1B. Considering Pujols is a viable option at other positions gives him an advantage there too. IMO, your argument is mute.Runs scored DO matter, that is what wins games, especially when you subtract HR's because that means a "lesser" player had to come through.
skierdude44
It may be true that the Cards wouldn't be winning the NL Central without Pujols, but the Cubs would be A LOT worse without Lee. The MVP is an individual award so it's hard to use team win-loss records to determine the MVP. You need to approximate how many wins a given player contributed to his team. Lee has contributed a lot of wins to the Cubs who would probably be absolutely horrible with out him. Pujols has made his fair share of contributions to the Cards but even without him they are likely still leading the division (by a small margin) or leading the wild card.
September 09, 2005 at 10:56AM View BBCode
Runs scored are a by product of the players behind you. Yes it's true that you can't score runs if you don't get on base, but once you're on base you need to rely on the hitters behind you to knock you in. If you have good hitters behind you then you will probably have a high runs scored total. If you don't have good hitters hitting behind you you won't score as many runs. So runs scored doesn't really reflect individual ability. OBP however is important because from that you can see that a player would score a lot of runs if the hitters around him are good.It may be true that the Cards wouldn't be winning the NL Central without Pujols, but the Cubs would be A LOT worse without Lee. The MVP is an individual award so it's hard to use team win-loss records to determine the MVP. You need to approximate how many wins a given player contributed to his team. Lee has contributed a lot of wins to the Cubs who would probably be absolutely horrible with out him. Pujols has made his fair share of contributions to the Cards but even without him they are likely still leading the division (by a small margin) or leading the wild card.
ME
So what? While it's less important defensively than SS or CF, there are still good defensive 1B and bad defensive 1B. Lee saves him team a couple of runs a year over an average defender, and that has value. Pujols hasn't played any other positions this year, he was an ok left-fielder (another position where worthless fielders are put) and a bad 3B.
September 09, 2005 at 11:07AM View BBCode
Originally posted by swerve
Considering they both primarily play 1B(Lee for sure), defense is practically useless, typically the worst fielders end up at 1B.
So what? While it's less important defensively than SS or CF, there are still good defensive 1B and bad defensive 1B. Lee saves him team a couple of runs a year over an average defender, and that has value. Pujols hasn't played any other positions this year, he was an ok left-fielder (another position where worthless fielders are put) and a bad 3B.
yankeekid
September 09, 2005 at 05:58PM View BBCode
Just out of curiousity, if OBP is such an important stat why not have Giambi win the AL MVP. I'm not saying he deserves it because I don't think he does but if you're gonna be saying OBP is a very important stat Giambi has to be thrown into the mix for the AL MVP.
youngallstar
September 09, 2005 at 06:24PM View BBCode
OBP is very important but Giambi only has a 280 average with 457 plate appearances. Not very noteworthy
skierdude44
OBP is the most important batting stat, but it's not the only one that matters. Basically all Giambi does is draw a walk or hit a homer. Besides that he's been very streaky this year (horrible April, terrific July, .198 average in August until the final weekend) and he sucks defensively. He's been a pleasant surprise this season, but that's it.
September 09, 2005 at 07:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by yankeekid
Just out of curiousity, if OBP is such an important stat why not have Giambi win the AL MVP. I'm not saying he deserves it because I don't think he does but if you're gonna be saying OBP is a very important stat Giambi has to be thrown into the mix for the AL MVP.
OBP is the most important batting stat, but it's not the only one that matters. Basically all Giambi does is draw a walk or hit a homer. Besides that he's been very streaky this year (horrible April, terrific July, .198 average in August until the final weekend) and he sucks defensively. He's been a pleasant surprise this season, but that's it.
FuriousGiorge
September 09, 2005 at 07:32PM View BBCode
For a 1st baseman or DH to win the award, he really has to be the best hitter in the league, not just among the best. If there's a player at a real position who's a better hitter, you can pretty much toss the 1st baseman/DH out of the MVP discussion.
yankeekid
September 09, 2005 at 07:59PM View BBCode
So does that mean Ortiz is out of the discussion too?
yankeekid
September 09, 2005 at 07:59PM View BBCode
So does that mean Ortiz is out of the discussion too?
FuriousGiorge
September 09, 2005 at 08:06PM View BBCode
Here's another problem for Giambi - not enough PA's. Ortiz has about 150 more than Giambi does. Yes, to me, it should clearly be given to Alex Rodriguez who brings quality defense to go with the best bat in the AL. But if you want to compare Giambi's case to Ortiz's, Giambi still comes up short.
yankeekid
September 09, 2005 at 08:07PM View BBCode
So basically A-rod automatically wins or who else is there? Why did it post that last one twice...
yankeekid
September 09, 2005 at 08:08PM View BBCode
I wasn't saying Giambi should get it, I even told you I didn't think he should get it, but I was just making a point based on what skier said about OBP.
FuriousGiorge
September 09, 2005 at 08:11PM View BBCode
Who will win? Who knows - maybe Ortiz, maybe ARod, maybe Guerrero again. Could be someone else. Who won't win? Roid monkey Jason Giambi.
krusecontrol
FG, you make some good points about D.Lee, and I don't think the team has to be great for a player to be MVP, but down the stretch - during the most important part of the season - Jones has been great and has really carried his team to first place.
And looking at defensive #s for a CF doesn't even give you half the story. AJ is still an outstanding OFer, and plays a much more important position on the field.
Jones
September 16, 2005 at 07:56PM View BBCode
Jones would be my pick for NL MVP.FG, you make some good points about D.Lee, and I don't think the team has to be great for a player to be MVP, but down the stretch - during the most important part of the season - Jones has been great and has really carried his team to first place.
And looking at defensive #s for a CF doesn't even give you half the story. AJ is still an outstanding OFer, and plays a much more important position on the field.
FuriousGiorge
Yes, this matters. He has been good down the stretch, and that counts for something. It's still a long way from his numbers up to Pujols'/Lee's, and those guys have been doing it all year.
As far as the defensive numbers, they're not perfect. But they indicate a guy who is not as good as he once was and, from my point of view at least, that bears out when you watch him. He looks a little slower, a little more tentative. Not a lot, but a little, and enough to allow the rest of the field to catch up. Besides, when Jones was still living up to the reputation of "greatest center fielder in the game" in the late-90's, early 00's, I always thought Mike Cameron was just a little better anyway.
September 16, 2005 at 08:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by krusecontrol
down the stretch - during the most important part of the season - Jones has been great and has really carried his team to first place.
Yes, this matters. He has been good down the stretch, and that counts for something. It's still a long way from his numbers up to Pujols'/Lee's, and those guys have been doing it all year.
As far as the defensive numbers, they're not perfect. But they indicate a guy who is not as good as he once was and, from my point of view at least, that bears out when you watch him. He looks a little slower, a little more tentative. Not a lot, but a little, and enough to allow the rest of the field to catch up. Besides, when Jones was still living up to the reputation of "greatest center fielder in the game" in the late-90's, early 00's, I always thought Mike Cameron was just a little better anyway.