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yankeekid
October 14, 2005 at 05:36PM View BBCode
Whos the last one that we kept? Well we kept Soriano for a little bit but before him... I guess Jeter right?
FuriousGiorge
Chien-Ming Wang struck out 47 batters in 116 and a third innings, and walked nearly as many (32). His ERA will not continue to be below the league average for very long if he doesn't figure out how to strike some guys out. It's a fairly safe bet that both of these guys are going to take a step back next year, maybe precipitously so. They may both become quality players, but the odds are stacked against them. These aren't the beginning pieces of a youth movement in New York; these are guys who are fortunate to play on a good team that can hide some of their shortcomings.
October 14, 2005 at 05:38PM View BBCode
Both of those players have HUGE red flags on their 2005 performance. Cano is an average defensive 2nd baseman with bad hands who has very limited secondary skills - he took 16 walks in 2005. Unless he learns some patience, his already limited power is going to decline and he'll rely on his batting average in order to bring anything to the table offensively. When he hits .297 he'll be an asset; when he hits .260 he'll be a black hole.Chien-Ming Wang struck out 47 batters in 116 and a third innings, and walked nearly as many (32). His ERA will not continue to be below the league average for very long if he doesn't figure out how to strike some guys out. It's a fairly safe bet that both of these guys are going to take a step back next year, maybe precipitously so. They may both become quality players, but the odds are stacked against them. These aren't the beginning pieces of a youth movement in New York; these are guys who are fortunate to play on a good team that can hide some of their shortcomings.
yankeekid
1. He is a rookie and will continue to get better as he ages
2. You don't really have to strike out guys to be a great pitcher. It helps but their are plenty of guys that don't strikeout many but are still good pitchers.
October 14, 2005 at 07:23PM View BBCode
I understand what your saying but I dont think that a guy that hit .297 in his rookie year is gonna all the sudden start hitting .260. Wang was great before his injury and then slowed down but you cant say that he wont be good because of the strikeout thing for a few reasons...1. He is a rookie and will continue to get better as he ages
2. You don't really have to strike out guys to be a great pitcher. It helps but their are plenty of guys that don't strikeout many but are still good pitchers.
skierdude44
Generally guys with higher strikeout rates tend to do better for a variety of reasons, but you don't need to strike guys out like Nolan Ryan to be successful.
I agree that Cano needs to learn to be more patient at the plate. His OBP was around .320 which obviously needs to improve. But he has a great swing and hits the ball well to all fields. A lot of times young hitters get pull-happy and can't handle the outside pitch, but Cano is not one of them. I think that in time he can develop some plate discipline. He may never lead the league in walks, but if he can get it to a point where he get's on base at a decent clip that's all that matters.
Wang is a bit more of a question mark in my opinion. He pitched much better before he got hurt and when he came back he didn't look nearly as sharp. You have to wonder if his shoulder will be able to hold up for a full season.
I don't want to see them trade either of these guys though, unless of course they can get top tier talent on the right side of 35 back. Hunter is a nice player and solves all of their defensive issues in center but he's not a particularly great hitter and you have to wonder if he'll reel in his agressive style alittle bit after his injury. Zito hasn't looked quite the same since he won the Cy Young a few years back. He had a dominant stretch around the Allstar break this year but he got off to a poor start and cooled down alittle at the end of the year. Obviously the philosophy of trading away all of their halfway decent prospects for aging veterans hasn't worked out so maybe they should bring their focus back to what helped them win in the 90's: develop some talent in your farm system and bring over quality veteran players via trade to complement them. I'm not saying go on a complete youth movement, but realize that every decent prospect doesn't have to be trade bait.
October 14, 2005 at 07:38PM View BBCode
Originally posted by yankeekid
2. You don't really have to strike out guys to be a great pitcher. It helps but their are plenty of guys that don't strikeout many but are still good pitchers.
Generally guys with higher strikeout rates tend to do better for a variety of reasons, but you don't need to strike guys out like Nolan Ryan to be successful.
I agree that Cano needs to learn to be more patient at the plate. His OBP was around .320 which obviously needs to improve. But he has a great swing and hits the ball well to all fields. A lot of times young hitters get pull-happy and can't handle the outside pitch, but Cano is not one of them. I think that in time he can develop some plate discipline. He may never lead the league in walks, but if he can get it to a point where he get's on base at a decent clip that's all that matters.
Wang is a bit more of a question mark in my opinion. He pitched much better before he got hurt and when he came back he didn't look nearly as sharp. You have to wonder if his shoulder will be able to hold up for a full season.
I don't want to see them trade either of these guys though, unless of course they can get top tier talent on the right side of 35 back. Hunter is a nice player and solves all of their defensive issues in center but he's not a particularly great hitter and you have to wonder if he'll reel in his agressive style alittle bit after his injury. Zito hasn't looked quite the same since he won the Cy Young a few years back. He had a dominant stretch around the Allstar break this year but he got off to a poor start and cooled down alittle at the end of the year. Obviously the philosophy of trading away all of their halfway decent prospects for aging veterans hasn't worked out so maybe they should bring their focus back to what helped them win in the 90's: develop some talent in your farm system and bring over quality veteran players via trade to complement them. I'm not saying go on a complete youth movement, but realize that every decent prospect doesn't have to be trade bait.
yankeekid
October 14, 2005 at 07:42PM View BBCode
Cano should be mentored by Giambi.... Honestly could Giambi somehow teach in any way how to get more walks. I mean part of it is just that Giambi has a great eye but you'd think he could do something...
FuriousGiorge
"I don't think that a guy that hit .297 in his rookie year is goona all the sudden start hitting .260."
Seriously? This is your argument? Let me give you some names:
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Pat Listach
Angel Berroa
Eric Hinske
(Here's a good one): Jerome Walton
"He is a rookie and will continue to get better as he ages"
He is not playing Sim Dynasty. He wouldn't be the first pitcher to peak early, either because he's just not that great, or because (more likely) he gets injured and doesn't recover.
"their (sic) are plenty of guys that don't strikeout many but are still good pitchers"
Name one pitcher with a strikeout rate as low as Wang's that had a long and successful career. Well, I shouldn't say that, since you probably don't know any players who started before about 1995 and who aren't Yankees. But I'm going to give you the answer - there are none. Zero. You cannot have a good, long career if you don't strike guys out at a reasonable clip - say, about 5.5-6/9 innings is the absolute bottom, and most guys who strike that few out and are successful have ridiculously low walk rates. Wang's walk rate is decent, but not ridiculously good.
October 14, 2005 at 07:44PM View BBCode
Jeter, you're an okay guy, you really are. You've grown on me, not unlike an adorable fungus. But please please PLEASE, you must learn some things. It is imperative. I cannot hold your hand through these very fundamental exercises anymore. I will give you this last time, and then you are on your own."I don't think that a guy that hit .297 in his rookie year is goona all the sudden start hitting .260."
Seriously? This is your argument? Let me give you some names:
Sandy Alomar Jr.
Pat Listach
Angel Berroa
Eric Hinske
(Here's a good one): Jerome Walton
"He is a rookie and will continue to get better as he ages"
He is not playing Sim Dynasty. He wouldn't be the first pitcher to peak early, either because he's just not that great, or because (more likely) he gets injured and doesn't recover.
"their (sic) are plenty of guys that don't strikeout many but are still good pitchers"
Name one pitcher with a strikeout rate as low as Wang's that had a long and successful career. Well, I shouldn't say that, since you probably don't know any players who started before about 1995 and who aren't Yankees. But I'm going to give you the answer - there are none. Zero. You cannot have a good, long career if you don't strike guys out at a reasonable clip - say, about 5.5-6/9 innings is the absolute bottom, and most guys who strike that few out and are successful have ridiculously low walk rates. Wang's walk rate is decent, but not ridiculously good.
yankeekid
October 14, 2005 at 07:54PM View BBCode
Yeah... what you said is true but somehow the way Cano played it just seems like hes gonna be good. He might fall apart but.... Sany Alomar Jr. and Erick Hinske didn't turn out too bad anyway. I remember Angel Berroa... I think I picked him up on a fantasy league because I was desperate for a shortstop and then was really suprised when he started doing well. He was really bad the next year... heh heh....
yankeekid
October 14, 2005 at 08:09PM View BBCode
Oh.... and is an adorable fungus a good thing or bad... I think I'll just leave that one alone...
hobos
[Edited on 10-14-2005 by hobos]
October 14, 2005 at 10:34PM View BBCode
We realize Wang is 26 next season (so he's not THAT young), and his 2005 numbers, which were unspectacular, are about on pace with his minor league numbers? (other than his strikeouts, which I doubt will increase too much). I see him as trade bait, unless the GM (Cashman or whoever it may be) thinks the Yankees need to keep their mediocre prospects to prove they can develop talent.[Edited on 10-14-2005 by hobos]
yankeekid
October 14, 2005 at 10:37PM View BBCode
I am really hoping we keep Cano. I wouldn't be as upset about Wang if we get someone good for him.
ABDREW
[Edited on 10-15-2005 by ABDREW]
October 14, 2005 at 11:15PM View BBCode
WOW, I can't believe you busted out Jerome Walton , good stuff. Who's next Kevin Mass? Phil Plantier? Hensley "Bam Bam" Muelens? Sam Horn? :lol: Brien Taylor:lol:[Edited on 10-15-2005 by ABDREW]
ABDREW
Exactly what I would want, my best young prospect bieng taken under the wing of a 'riod head and probable HGH user. I will repeat what FG said, this is not SD. (Why do I feel like this needs to be said way too often?) There is no mentoring program in MLB, players don't just improve with age. Most of the time rookies are caught up to the next year when the league studies them more and finds a weakness.
October 14, 2005 at 11:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by yankeekid
Cano should be mentored by Giambi.... Honestly could Giambi somehow teach in any way how to get more walks. I mean part of it is just that Giambi has a great eye but you'd think he could do something...
Exactly what I would want, my best young prospect bieng taken under the wing of a 'riod head and probable HGH user. I will repeat what FG said, this is not SD. (Why do I feel like this needs to be said way too often?) There is no mentoring program in MLB, players don't just improve with age. Most of the time rookies are caught up to the next year when the league studies them more and finds a weakness.
jetpac
He is not playing Sim Dynasty. He wouldn't be the first pitcher to peak early, either because he's just not that great, or because (more likely) he gets injured and doesn't recover.
[/quote]
Yankee's never played a multi-season league, anyway. I'm trying to convert him, but.....
October 15, 2005 at 02:45AM View formatted
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[quote][i]Originally posted by FuriousGiorge[/i]
He is not playing Sim Dynasty. He wouldn't be the first pitcher to peak early, either because he's just not that great, or because (more likely) he gets injured and doesn't recover.
[/quote]
Yankee's never played a multi-season league, anyway. I'm trying to convert him, but.....
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