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Old Forum Index » Other Stuff » Off Topic » NL Central
| Poll: NL Central | |
|---|---|
| Cubs | 21 |
| Cards | 14 |
| Astros | 10 |
| Pirates | 2 |
| Brewers | 3 |
| Reds | 0 |
TheSkipper
pujols
rolen
renteria
edmonds
williams (woody)
if morris can get healthy, that's 2 aces
pay attention son
July 13, 2003 at 07:39PM View BBCode
i was refering to the all star team--pujols
rolen
renteria
edmonds
williams (woody)
if morris can get healthy, that's 2 aces
pay attention son
skierdude44
July 13, 2003 at 08:03PM View BBCode
williams is having a good season but hes not at the wood prior oswalt wagner caliber. hes put together decent seasons in the past but thats all. and when u refer to allstars say allstars bcuz if u look at just stars u could say griffey and sosa even thou neither r on the allstar team son.
TheSkipper
August 12, 2003 at 03:37PM View BBCode
i'm just giving this thread a little bump, so all those who picked the cubs to win don't forget
TheSkipper
by the end of the month, the cards should
have morris, vina, and marrero back in time for the key nl central matchups with cubs and astros.
August 12, 2003 at 03:46PM View BBCode
p.s.by the end of the month, the cards should
have morris, vina, and marrero back in time for the key nl central matchups with cubs and astros.
farfetched
I know that SS isn't the only determinant involved in winning the division, but this is just one factor I felt I'd point out.
August 12, 2003 at 06:22PM View BBCode
You've got to look at quite possibly the most difficult position to fill in the league today, despite the numerous stars there are throughout the league... And between the Cards, Cubs, and Astros, Edgar Renteria is by far the best shortstop of these three teams..I know that SS isn't the only determinant involved in winning the division, but this is just one factor I felt I'd point out.
skierdude44
August 12, 2003 at 10:03PM View BBCode
that is true bcuz their are so few good shortstops. shortstops used to be known for their glove and for not having a bat. by those qualifications rey ordonez wuz a good shortstop. now with jeter arod nomar tejada and renteria the bar has been raised but the only shortstops that fit the new standard are jeter arod nomar tejada and renteria.
jvo1
August 12, 2003 at 10:09PM View BBCode
If you leave Jeter out of that last list, you might actually be onto something skierdude. If you combined Jeter and Ordonez, you might get the Jeter you currently think he already is.
Meathead44
August 12, 2003 at 10:14PM View BBCode
I'd throw Cabrera and Furcal into that list of offensive shortstops.
skierdude44
August 12, 2003 at 10:18PM View BBCode
really jvo interesting. now if a non yankee hater said that that mite have some truth. cabrera and furcal also could join the list. furcal may be one of the best shortstops a little later bcuz he is still developing. cabrera has recently raised his game up and also is on the brink.
jvo1
August 12, 2003 at 10:33PM View BBCode
What I said about Jeter had nothing to do with the Yankees, I thought we were talking about shortstops, were we not? I also thought you might remember my and Hollywood stances on how we feel Jeter ranks defensively...shall we revisit that thread?
Meathead44
August 12, 2003 at 10:48PM View BBCode
OK, here's a non-Yankee hater. Jeter is above average in hitting and below average in fielding. As the total package, he'd rank about 6th or so in the league. Maybe a bit lower.
skierdude44
August 12, 2003 at 10:57PM View BBCode
yea meat ur a real non yankee hater there. ur not as bad as hollywood but still. ive seen jeter make bettr plays than arod. ive also seen arod get hit in the face with the throw from the catcher. jeter is also a leader like mattingly and munson. arod is in texas for the money for 5 mill less he could be in atl and have a couple rings but u kno he absolutly needed that 5 mill to survive. nomar even though he hasnt this year is always injured for the middle of the year which is also my knock on pedro who can rarely go over 6 innings in a game and is injured down the stretch. and this isnt my only example but it is my best jeters play against oakland to save the series.
Meathead44
August 12, 2003 at 11:13PM View BBCode
Just because I think you are full of it, doesn't make me a Yankee Hater. I actually liked watching the Yankees in the 70's and early 80's. The first World Series that I ever remember watching was the 1977 series with The Yankees and The Dodgers.
FuriousGiorge
Derek Jeter is, clearly and unequivocably, a bad defensive SS. Skierdude, fight the urge to stop reading right now, because it gets better eventually. Derek Jeter is consistently among the worst in the league in range factor and zone rating (3.62 and 7.67 this year, easily the worst in the league in both cases). These aren't perfect numbers, but his consistent awfulness shows that he clearly doesn't get to enough balls, and that defensively he'd be better off at 3rd, where his hands and arm would offset his poor range a little better.
I disagree with the assessment that Jeter is the 6th best SS in the league at best. First, Jeter has better career accomplishments than anyone except Nomar and ARod, and if Pedro didn't deserve the 1999 AL MVP then Jeter did. Jeter currently sports the second-highest OBP of any SS (.392, behind only Nomar), the 4th-highest OPS (871) and the 3rd-highest RC/27 (6.97). If anything, Jeter has proven this year that those who wrote him off after his mediocre 2002 were wrong, and he is still a top tier SS, not just in the AL but in the entire league. Of all the other SS who are mentioned, the only guy besides Nomar or ARod who is in his class is Renteria.
August 12, 2003 at 11:49PM View BBCode
God, this Derek Jeter stuff gets rehashed so often. I guess I might as well weigh in too.Derek Jeter is, clearly and unequivocably, a bad defensive SS. Skierdude, fight the urge to stop reading right now, because it gets better eventually. Derek Jeter is consistently among the worst in the league in range factor and zone rating (3.62 and 7.67 this year, easily the worst in the league in both cases). These aren't perfect numbers, but his consistent awfulness shows that he clearly doesn't get to enough balls, and that defensively he'd be better off at 3rd, where his hands and arm would offset his poor range a little better.
I disagree with the assessment that Jeter is the 6th best SS in the league at best. First, Jeter has better career accomplishments than anyone except Nomar and ARod, and if Pedro didn't deserve the 1999 AL MVP then Jeter did. Jeter currently sports the second-highest OBP of any SS (.392, behind only Nomar), the 4th-highest OPS (871) and the 3rd-highest RC/27 (6.97). If anything, Jeter has proven this year that those who wrote him off after his mediocre 2002 were wrong, and he is still a top tier SS, not just in the AL but in the entire league. Of all the other SS who are mentioned, the only guy besides Nomar or ARod who is in his class is Renteria.
skierdude44
August 12, 2003 at 11:53PM View BBCode
although i dont agree with the whole range factor u cant argue with george there.
andrew
August 13, 2003 at 12:09AM View BBCode
It is great that you can agree with numbers that make Jeter look good but not ones that make him look not so good. I think it is safe to say you are not open minded.
andrew
BTW
August 13, 2003 at 12:11AM View BBCode
How did this get turned into another Jeter discussion?
skierdude44
August 13, 2003 at 12:33AM View BBCode
i dont agree with the range factor bcuz i have seen jeter make great plays. im a yankee fan remember. i watch prolly about 130 yankee games a year. now maybe bcuz i see jeter more than any other shortstop his great plays mayb not so great for them although i highly doubt it.
jvo1
That said, my statement had nothing to do with Jeter offensively, as he is very good, he just cant field. Granted, anyone can make a better play than someone else on any given day, its being able to do it consistently that makes you a good defensemen. This is why ARod is and Jeter isnt. I cant remember the last time I saw Jeter on any defensive highlight reel for that matter.
skierdude, you turn all your arguments into irrelevant points, like how much money ARod makes in comparison. He's the closest thing to worth that money, so its alright by me. He's compensated by the lowsy team he plays for. And yes, Jeter made one good play, on that lame throw to the plate a long time ago, too bad he could've been any position and made that play, it had nothing to do with shortstop.
August 13, 2003 at 12:39AM View BBCode
Because skierdude knows nothing and constantly feels the need to share it.That said, my statement had nothing to do with Jeter offensively, as he is very good, he just cant field. Granted, anyone can make a better play than someone else on any given day, its being able to do it consistently that makes you a good defensemen. This is why ARod is and Jeter isnt. I cant remember the last time I saw Jeter on any defensive highlight reel for that matter.
skierdude, you turn all your arguments into irrelevant points, like how much money ARod makes in comparison. He's the closest thing to worth that money, so its alright by me. He's compensated by the lowsy team he plays for. And yes, Jeter made one good play, on that lame throw to the plate a long time ago, too bad he could've been any position and made that play, it had nothing to do with shortstop.
skierdude44
August 13, 2003 at 12:47AM View BBCode
well knoblauch and tino were cutoffs so if he played 2nd or 1st he couldnt have made the play. the pitcher wuz backing up home so he couldnt have made the play. posada wuz covering home so he couldnt have made the play and the leftfielder or bernie couldnt have made the play leaving jeter at short or broscius at third to make the play. jeter turned down an offer for a contract extension bcuz it wuz too much money. he wanted to play for the yanks as a kid and got his dream. he is a leader. arod chased the money to texas were he could have played for atlanta for 5 mill less and would have made atl by far the most dominant team in baseball. u have hammered the yankees and their players for being all about money but atleast jeter is a team leader and wins. arod is greedy and doesnt care about winning. yet arod is a saint and jeter is evil. that makes sense.
FuriousGiorge
As a Yankees fan I'm sure you feel very passionately about Jeter, but you're just doing a disservice to him when you say that you believe numbers that show he's good and you don't believe numbers that show he's not so good. This is why people jump on the guy and why people get so frustrated by Yankees fans, because they will only listen to things that make their players sound good, and they sound like idiots when they deny the existence of evidence that shows their players aren't perfect.
I've given you evidence of Jeter's goodness as a hitter and badness as a fielder. If you can't give me any more than "I see him, and I know" then you've lost the argument whether you realize it or not.
By the way, Derek Jeter does do SOME things well in the field. He's good at going back for pop-ups, and he has a good accurate arm for relay throws. He just doesn't do the most important thing very well in the field, which is get to a lot of ground balls.
August 13, 2003 at 12:48AM View BBCode
It'd be great if we could just pick and choose what things we want to believe. "I believe that cancer kills lots of people, but all those numbers on AIDS are bullshit, I mean, I don't know anyone who ever had it."As a Yankees fan I'm sure you feel very passionately about Jeter, but you're just doing a disservice to him when you say that you believe numbers that show he's good and you don't believe numbers that show he's not so good. This is why people jump on the guy and why people get so frustrated by Yankees fans, because they will only listen to things that make their players sound good, and they sound like idiots when they deny the existence of evidence that shows their players aren't perfect.
I've given you evidence of Jeter's goodness as a hitter and badness as a fielder. If you can't give me any more than "I see him, and I know" then you've lost the argument whether you realize it or not.
By the way, Derek Jeter does do SOME things well in the field. He's good at going back for pop-ups, and he has a good accurate arm for relay throws. He just doesn't do the most important thing very well in the field, which is get to a lot of ground balls.
jvo1
August 13, 2003 at 12:54AM View BBCode
You made no point relevant to the conversation!! You made no mention to his defensive skills at all, just that he is a leader and turned down a contract extension. Do you have moron written on your forehead? I agree he is a leader, but he's no better than anyone else because he wants to stay on a good team. DUH.
jvo1
August 13, 2003 at 12:55AM View BBCode
By the way, you also missed my very simple point of, his little play showed no shortstop skills at all, you know, his position???!?