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happy
The season is over, and Favre predictably sucked. He single handedly gave games away by becoming an interception machine. His stats weren't all too impressive despite playing a cupcake schedule. And he didnt make the playoffs, so even the "he just wins" and "clubhouse atmosphere" arguments are dead. In fact, i think if pennington was their QB instead of Favre, the jets mightve made the playoffs this season.
From footballoutsiders, Favre rated 21st in DYAR (counting stat) and 27th in DVOA (rate stat) among quarterbacks. note: I dont really think these stats are very good, but they are certainly talking points.
I believe that any argument against Brees, Cutler, or Rivers being worse is essentially dead in the water. Add the obvious Manning/Brady to the equation, and we can all agree that Favre is not a top 5 quarterback.
January 05, 2009 at 08:40AM View BBCode
I know, someone is going to make fun of me for obsessing about favre, but god, im tired of idiot fans sucking his dick and overrating him so much. So im going to make my point in the thread where this absurd argument started.The season is over, and Favre predictably sucked. He single handedly gave games away by becoming an interception machine. His stats weren't all too impressive despite playing a cupcake schedule. And he didnt make the playoffs, so even the "he just wins" and "clubhouse atmosphere" arguments are dead. In fact, i think if pennington was their QB instead of Favre, the jets mightve made the playoffs this season.
From footballoutsiders, Favre rated 21st in DYAR (counting stat) and 27th in DVOA (rate stat) among quarterbacks. note: I dont really think these stats are very good, but they are certainly talking points.
I believe that any argument against Brees, Cutler, or Rivers being worse is essentially dead in the water. Add the obvious Manning/Brady to the equation, and we can all agree that Favre is not a top 5 quarterback.
sycophantman
(The Jets are very much not a smart organization, sorry.)
Still, Favre at his peak was a very good quarterback, this year he was utter rubbish though. The real key to success in the NFL is staying ahead of player declines, and in spite of all the angst at the time, the Packers were very smart to get rid of Favre when they did, they knew he was a washed-up diva. You just can't win for long in the NFL if you cannot see a player for what they currently are.
[Edited on 1/5/2009 by sycophantman]
January 05, 2009 at 01:28PM View BBCode
Is anyone holding on to that argument? Brett Favre appeared on his way out a few seasons ago. His last Green Bay season was a big turnaround at a very advanced age for a quarterback, that should have been a huge red flag for a smart front office.(The Jets are very much not a smart organization, sorry.)
Still, Favre at his peak was a very good quarterback, this year he was utter rubbish though. The real key to success in the NFL is staying ahead of player declines, and in spite of all the angst at the time, the Packers were very smart to get rid of Favre when they did, they knew he was a washed-up diva. You just can't win for long in the NFL if you cannot see a player for what they currently are.
[Edited on 1/5/2009 by sycophantman]
FuriousGiorge
January 05, 2009 at 02:50PM View BBCode
The Jets won 5 more games this year than they did last year.
sycophantman
Yes, and they were 10-6 the season before that. Brett Favre helped them, but if I recall Kellen Clemens *snicker* started half their games in that 2007 season. Chad Pennington? Apparently, not completely washed up.
[Edited on 1/5/2009 by sycophantman]
January 05, 2009 at 03:07PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
The Jets won 5 more games this year than they did last year.
Yes, and they were 10-6 the season before that. Brett Favre helped them, but if I recall Kellen Clemens *snicker* started half their games in that 2007 season. Chad Pennington? Apparently, not completely washed up.
[Edited on 1/5/2009 by sycophantman]
tm4559
pennington went to the dolphins and they made the playoffs (all his fault, obviously). if you (happy) are going to harp on the dolphins' weak schedule in one thread, maybe you shouldn't go turning pennington into a god in this one.
January 05, 2009 at 03:16PM View formatted
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the Jets needed help, they took farve. they almost made the playoffs, the fans came out to see him, certainly he wasn't the sole reason the team lost out at the end of the season (i mean, there was the whole rest of the offense and the defense playing. can they take a little teensy part of the blame? can you come up with a fraction that doesn't assign 100% to the quarterback)?
pennington went to the dolphins and they made the playoffs (all his fault, obviously). if you (happy) are going to harp on the dolphins' weak schedule in one thread, maybe you shouldn't go turning pennington into a god in this one.
sycophantman
Once again proving why the NFL is the best league. Even a team in New York will be allowed to fail if the management is terrible enough.
January 05, 2009 at 03:27PM View BBCode
The Jets couldn't have possibly foreseen the Pennington of 2008, just like most of us didn't. It made since at the time for the Jets and you just can't bash them for it in hindsight. The fact remains that the expectations were always vaguely hopeful, but never serious, at least outside of New York. No one really thought that the Jets would make any noise, not really.Once again proving why the NFL is the best league. Even a team in New York will be allowed to fail if the management is terrible enough.
thatrogue
January 05, 2009 at 03:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by sycophantmanMeh...it happens in baseball, basketball and hockey too.
...
Once again proving why the NFL is the best league. Even a team in New York will be allowed to fail if the management is terrible enough.
happy
also, syco, read thru this thread. You say no one is holding onto Favre being a top 5 QB. Maybe not now, but thats because he was such a disaster this season. at the end of last season a lot of sports fans on these forums, whose opinions i normally respect, were equally as enamored with this utterly overrated quarterback.
this is the kind of argument that comes out when people blindly try to defend Favre:
also, i stand by my "ridiculous hyperbole" (craig's words) where i listed 9 players who were pretty clearly better, and another 2 or 3 who i believed would become better this season. I mean, craig doesnt even like him, and he indulged in the overrating too.
January 05, 2009 at 03:47PM View BBCode
they won 5 more games largely due to more luck and a cupcake schedule. Sure, he was probably better than Clemens. The Dolphins won 10 more games this year. was pennington 10 games better than Miami QB? I'd say no.also, syco, read thru this thread. You say no one is holding onto Favre being a top 5 QB. Maybe not now, but thats because he was such a disaster this season. at the end of last season a lot of sports fans on these forums, whose opinions i normally respect, were equally as enamored with this utterly overrated quarterback.
this is the kind of argument that comes out when people blindly try to defend Favre:
Originally posted by barterer2002
Seriously Brees? He's good, certainly not great.
also, i stand by my "ridiculous hyperbole" (craig's words) where i listed 9 players who were pretty clearly better, and another 2 or 3 who i believed would become better this season. I mean, craig doesnt even like him, and he indulged in the overrating too.
FuriousGiorge
Speaking of hyperbole.
January 05, 2009 at 04:04PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
he was such a disaster this season.
Speaking of hyperbole.
tm4559
[Edited on 1-5-2009 by tm4559]
January 05, 2009 at 04:22PM View BBCode
it is much what we expected, no? also, don't forget, jason campbell is god.[Edited on 1-5-2009 by tm4559]
dirtdevil
so what exactly is your point then, other than you have a rejected man-crush on brett favre? that there's never any point in trying to make your team better because any change in win total is due more to luck and strength of schedule than calibre of players? i don't know why they even bother to play the games really. they should just ask you who's going to win and save on all the travel costs. look, i don't think anyone would suggest that favre had a top calibre season this year. but even with that he was an upgrade at qb over the play the jets received at that position last season. i also don't think anyone saw pennington's season in miami coming, as much as i personally enjoyed seeing him quarterbacking the team that knocked the jets out of the playoffs. i suspect that any team given the option to have brett favre or chad pennington at qb after last season would have opted for favre as well.
that's because at the end of last season he had just completed a season in which he was pretty clearly a top-5 quarterback. this year, obviously, not so much. but isn't that how top-5 qb's are determined? by how well they perform during the year? or should we put you in charge of determining the league mvp and top rated qb before the season starts and not bother playing at all?
ok, you don't like brett favre. we get it. he didn't have a good season this year and likely should have stayed retired. you're not going to find anyone who will argue with the first part of that statement and perhaps not too many who will argue the latter part. but this ongoing rant just makes you look somewhat childish.
January 05, 2009 at 04:24PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
they won 5 more games largely due to more luck and a cupcake schedule. Sure, he was probably better than Clemens. The Dolphins won 10 more games this year. was pennington 10 games better than Miami QB? I'd say no.
so what exactly is your point then, other than you have a rejected man-crush on brett favre? that there's never any point in trying to make your team better because any change in win total is due more to luck and strength of schedule than calibre of players? i don't know why they even bother to play the games really. they should just ask you who's going to win and save on all the travel costs. look, i don't think anyone would suggest that favre had a top calibre season this year. but even with that he was an upgrade at qb over the play the jets received at that position last season. i also don't think anyone saw pennington's season in miami coming, as much as i personally enjoyed seeing him quarterbacking the team that knocked the jets out of the playoffs. i suspect that any team given the option to have brett favre or chad pennington at qb after last season would have opted for favre as well.
also, syco, read thru this thread. You say no one is holding onto Favre being a top 5 QB. Maybe not now, but thats because he was such a disaster this season. at the end of last season a lot of sports fans on these forums, whose opinions i normally respect, were equally as enamored with this utterly overrated quarterback.
that's because at the end of last season he had just completed a season in which he was pretty clearly a top-5 quarterback. this year, obviously, not so much. but isn't that how top-5 qb's are determined? by how well they perform during the year? or should we put you in charge of determining the league mvp and top rated qb before the season starts and not bother playing at all?
ok, you don't like brett favre. we get it. he didn't have a good season this year and likely should have stayed retired. you're not going to find anyone who will argue with the first part of that statement and perhaps not too many who will argue the latter part. but this ongoing rant just makes you look somewhat childish.
whiskybear
Fixed.
January 05, 2009 at 04:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
it is much what we expected, no? also, don't forget, jasoncampbellcollins is god.
[Edited on 1-5-2009 by tm4559]
Fixed.
whiskybear
This is my favorite little hidden hilarity. "Generic Baseball Player finished 27th in RBI (counting stat) and 21st in batting average (rate stat) among first basemen. Now I think both of those stats kind of suck, but like any empty-headed little puke who just loves an argument, I think they certainly are talking points."
January 05, 2009 at 04:29PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
From footballoutsiders, Favre rated 21st in DYAR (counting stat) and 27th in DVOA (rate stat) among quarterbacks. note: I dont really think these stats are very good, but they are certainly talking points.
This is my favorite little hidden hilarity. "Generic Baseball Player finished 27th in RBI (counting stat) and 21st in batting average (rate stat) among first basemen. Now I think both of those stats kind of suck, but like any empty-headed little puke who just loves an argument, I think they certainly are talking points."
dirtdevil
not to nitpick, but didn't you have carson palmer in the 'clearly better than favre' category too? how did that turn out for you?
January 05, 2009 at 04:39PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
I believe that any argument against Brees, Cutler, or Rivers being worse is essentially dead in the water. Add the obvious Manning/Brady to the equation, and we can all agree that Favre is not a top 5 quarterback.
not to nitpick, but didn't you have carson palmer in the 'clearly better than favre' category too? how did that turn out for you?
FuriousGiorge
January 05, 2009 at 05:04PM View BBCode
This and the Shanahan thread are starting to meld into one entity (More Cowbell gives Shanahan piles of blame but no credit for anything, Happy does the same for Favre).
happy
I had Palmer as clearly better, and he was injured. Brady is still clearly better too. I was hopeful that Favre sucking this season might let people realize that he isnt good enough to stand up to palmer. we can take palmer off the list, it doesnt matter. he isnt a top 5 QB, he isnt a top 10 QB, he probably isnt a top 15 QB.
You said Favre was pretty clearly a top 5 QB. You are wrong. He wasnt. His offensive line was the best in the league by a significant margin, his WRs had obnoxious YAC, Favre had luck with interceptions (interceptions have high variance, it was low, and based off his career stats, it isnt surprising that it regressed to the mean), he was moving to a new team, and he is old. Anyone who said that the jets were picking up a top 5 QB (i think you could be in that category) was wrong, and made a hillariously dumb statement. Im not saying this with hindsight, i said it before, and now it has been proven.
Also, tyler, DYAR/DVOA is the equivalent of VORP and EqA (or some more all inclusive equivalent that i dont feel like thinking of right now) for baseball. But it a much much worse stat. But any stat is. I just think VORP or EqA is a pretty good be all end all stat, and although these arent, they certainly tell a lot more of the story than any other stat out there.
January 05, 2009 at 05:56PM View BBCode
wow, dirtdevil puked on this thread with idiocy. we started off with the essential "you print spreadsheets on your bedsheets" argument. why do we play the game? what? just shut up, just stop talking, find a new hobby. Oh my God.I had Palmer as clearly better, and he was injured. Brady is still clearly better too. I was hopeful that Favre sucking this season might let people realize that he isnt good enough to stand up to palmer. we can take palmer off the list, it doesnt matter. he isnt a top 5 QB, he isnt a top 10 QB, he probably isnt a top 15 QB.
You said Favre was pretty clearly a top 5 QB. You are wrong. He wasnt. His offensive line was the best in the league by a significant margin, his WRs had obnoxious YAC, Favre had luck with interceptions (interceptions have high variance, it was low, and based off his career stats, it isnt surprising that it regressed to the mean), he was moving to a new team, and he is old. Anyone who said that the jets were picking up a top 5 QB (i think you could be in that category) was wrong, and made a hillariously dumb statement. Im not saying this with hindsight, i said it before, and now it has been proven.
Also, tyler, DYAR/DVOA is the equivalent of VORP and EqA (or some more all inclusive equivalent that i dont feel like thinking of right now) for baseball. But it a much much worse stat. But any stat is. I just think VORP or EqA is a pretty good be all end all stat, and although these arent, they certainly tell a lot more of the story than any other stat out there.
happy
if we call him "top 5 QB" we can agree it was a disaster. if we accept that he was league average when the season started, we can say it was the expected season.
January 05, 2009 at 05:57PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Originally posted by happy
he was such a disaster this season.
Speaking of hyperbole.
if we call him "top 5 QB" we can agree it was a disaster. if we accept that he was league average when the season started, we can say it was the expected season.
FuriousGiorge
January 05, 2009 at 06:20PM View BBCode
It's really weird and personal with you (also, stop using obnoxious in that manner).
dirtdevil
your obsession with favre has long ago reached the embarassing stage and your search for 'evidence' to back up your opinion has gone nonsensical. according to your various rantings, we need to disregard the accomplishments of any qb who plays behind an o-line that doesn't suck, who throws to receivers that don't immediately fall down after catching a pass, who lower interception totals or who play for teams which realize improved win totals? no wonder you've got a hard-on for jason campbell and carson palmer. apparently the skills and results you value in a qb are those which at any given time reflect most poorly on bret favre.
oh, and since you're apparently once again disincined to actually read the same thread you want others to go back over, i'll repost this for you from way back in page 1:
i've always thought favre's reputation was greater than his skill. but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be given proper credit for having a good season when it happens. last year he had a great year, a top-5 quality year. whatever other factors you want to identify in no way diminish what favre accomplished on the field last year. systematically refusing to acknowledge when favre has success diminishes and marginalizes whatever value your opinions might otherwise hold by completely destroying your credibility as an objective observer. if you had simply said something like 'favre had a top-5 quality year last year, but for the following reasons i think it was a fluke that won't be repeated', you'd have a good, solid, defendable opinion that many (myself included) would agree with, and even those who didn't would have taken seriously. instead you once again elect to make blanket statements of opinion as fact and make yourself look bitter and ridiculous. i suppose it's not really your fault, with your binary brain and all, but if you could some day realize that most issues aren't solved by an 'if not 1 then 2 ' resolution, you'll find yourself in far fewer arguments in which you don't understand why so many people are telling you you're full of crap.
[Edited on 1-5-2009 by dirtdevil]
January 05, 2009 at 07:32PM View BBCode
happy, your egomania is astounding, and your opinions inpenetrable. there has been a great deal of puking idiocy in this thread, but you'd have more success finding its source by checking your bathroom mirror.your obsession with favre has long ago reached the embarassing stage and your search for 'evidence' to back up your opinion has gone nonsensical. according to your various rantings, we need to disregard the accomplishments of any qb who plays behind an o-line that doesn't suck, who throws to receivers that don't immediately fall down after catching a pass, who lower interception totals or who play for teams which realize improved win totals? no wonder you've got a hard-on for jason campbell and carson palmer. apparently the skills and results you value in a qb are those which at any given time reflect most poorly on bret favre.
oh, and since you're apparently once again disincined to actually read the same thread you want others to go back over, i'll repost this for you from way back in page 1:
Originally posted by dirtdevil
i don't remember saying anything about his rep improving the team. the team is improved if he's an upgrade at QB. i've never really thought that favre was as good as his reputation, but he's certainly an uprgrade for the jets.
i've always thought favre's reputation was greater than his skill. but that doesn't mean he shouldn't be given proper credit for having a good season when it happens. last year he had a great year, a top-5 quality year. whatever other factors you want to identify in no way diminish what favre accomplished on the field last year. systematically refusing to acknowledge when favre has success diminishes and marginalizes whatever value your opinions might otherwise hold by completely destroying your credibility as an objective observer. if you had simply said something like 'favre had a top-5 quality year last year, but for the following reasons i think it was a fluke that won't be repeated', you'd have a good, solid, defendable opinion that many (myself included) would agree with, and even those who didn't would have taken seriously. instead you once again elect to make blanket statements of opinion as fact and make yourself look bitter and ridiculous. i suppose it's not really your fault, with your binary brain and all, but if you could some day realize that most issues aren't solved by an 'if not 1 then 2 ' resolution, you'll find yourself in far fewer arguments in which you don't understand why so many people are telling you you're full of crap.
[Edited on 1-5-2009 by dirtdevil]