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gheck
The offending party knows who he is. I'm livid about this.
Apparently...
September 13, 2009 at 02:33AM View BBCode
Handshake agreements don't mean anything in this league. And I've had MY trading policies challenged by league members?The offending party knows who he is. I'm livid about this.
Cigamynnoj
"I plan on accepting it, but cant till the end of season (ie tomorrow
afternoon) because I cant CP mr parker"
That was completely true. I think we're pretty clear in this league that no trade is final until it happens. Im not sure if you think I should have rejected the better offer. I even told him I thought he was overpaying.
September 13, 2009 at 03:02AM View BBCode
I said:"I plan on accepting it, but cant till the end of season (ie tomorrow
afternoon) because I cant CP mr parker"
That was completely true. I think we're pretty clear in this league that no trade is final until it happens. Im not sure if you think I should have rejected the better offer. I even told him I thought he was overpaying.
gheck
censored it.
September 13, 2009 at 03:11AM View BBCode
Whatever, man. You made the offer, I accepted the offer. You want to cite semantics to back your case? That's fine. The censored part of this is, I was doing you a favor by leaving the CPs on Parker in anticipation of a made deal.censored it.
Cigamynnoj
Im really sorry if you felt differently, but Ive always thought all trades were under the former framework, not the latter.
September 13, 2009 at 03:23AM View BBCode
Its not semantics. I wanted to make that trade, but couldnt till the end of the season. We're actually forbidden from committing to a trade before it is actually consummated (as kesselman politely told me after I made a end of season handshake deal with Tony my first year playing). I thought that was pretty clear to everyone - theres a big difference between coming to terms on a deal were both happy with and then doing it at the end of the season versus a deal that weave both committed to 100% with 2 days left.Im really sorry if you felt differently, but Ive always thought all trades were under the former framework, not the latter.
ttsai
September 13, 2009 at 03:27AM View BBCode
Like the previous thread that was mentioned before, this is somewhat pointless as nothing is going to be changed now and nothing will be changed in the future.
gheck
I find integrity to be way overrated anyway...
September 13, 2009 at 03:58AM View BBCode
You know what? You guys are right. Silly of me to even be upset.I find integrity to be way overrated anyway...
benducey
September 13, 2009 at 04:06AM View BBCode
I have always been under the impression that handshake deals were prohibited.
Paluka
September 13, 2009 at 05:23AM View BBCode
Jon is correct on this, and you actually make the case for why these sorts of deals are collusive in your post. You said "I was doing you a favor by leaving the CPs on Parker in anticipation of a made deal"- if Jon had already traded for 5 CPs this year than this is effectively the same as him trading for extra CPs. This clearly would not be a legal trade. If the prospect had got incredible improves for the rest of the season, you would have been well within your rights to back out.
Jdredd73
Again, I can't know what was actually said, but I would be extremely surprised if Jon said something more binding than "i'd be extremely likely to do that at the season's end."
There are all sorts of reasons to prevent future dealing, including collusion, rental players, and just sheer awkwardness of not knowing what has effectively transpired but not been posted. While these issues are more problematic over lengthy time periods they are still true over shorter time periods such as until the end of the current season, and a 'handshake agreement' for that time period would still be illegal.
I'd also like to add for whatever its worth that I think Jon is one of the most trustworthy people I know, and whatever complaint you may have is entirely based on a misunderstanding.
September 13, 2009 at 05:34AM View BBCode
I admit I know nothing of what was actually said, but I can definitely confirm that handshake deals (meaning any agreement to do something in the future) are illegal, and that Jon and I have recently had a conversation where that was discussed and made clear.Again, I can't know what was actually said, but I would be extremely surprised if Jon said something more binding than "i'd be extremely likely to do that at the season's end."
There are all sorts of reasons to prevent future dealing, including collusion, rental players, and just sheer awkwardness of not knowing what has effectively transpired but not been posted. While these issues are more problematic over lengthy time periods they are still true over shorter time periods such as until the end of the current season, and a 'handshake agreement' for that time period would still be illegal.
I'd also like to add for whatever its worth that I think Jon is one of the most trustworthy people I know, and whatever complaint you may have is entirely based on a misunderstanding.
gheck
As for all of the consternation about favor being made...please. There were 12 games or so left in the season. He made me a trade offer. I accepted. He reneged. I'm pissed. End of story.
Good luck to everyone in the playoffs.
September 13, 2009 at 01:56PM View BBCode
Yep. I misunderstood that when he made me a trade offer and I accepted it, that he might consider that binding.As for all of the consternation about favor being made...please. There were 12 games or so left in the season. He made me a trade offer. I accepted. He reneged. I'm pissed. End of story.
Good luck to everyone in the playoffs.
Makisupa
September 13, 2009 at 04:49PM View BBCode
I overpaid anyway. Would you have really offered more than I did?
Cigamynnoj
If you accept the fact that from my perspective that there are no such thing as a "binding trade" to be carried out in the future, and in fact any sort of implicitly binding handshake agreements are explicitly forbidden in the league (and making them would, might I daresay, lack integrity) then I think it's quite difficult for you to honestly think I did anything wrong (though of course it's easy to be mad that a trade you wanted fell through).
I have included our email exchange for people who may be curious:
Heck, Gregory
Okay - no problem
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Finkel [mailto:jonfinkel@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:07 AM
To: Heck, Gregory
- Hide quoted text -
Subject: Re: Sim
I plan on accepting it, but cant till the end of season (ie tomorrow
afternoon) because I cant CP mr parker
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Heck, Gregory <GHeck@firstrust.com> wrote:
> Okay - I can do that. I'll make the offer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Finkel [mailto:jonfinkel@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:09 AM
> To: Heck, Gregory
> Subject: Sim
>
> Im interested in Lefty Parker and in getting rid of the #1 overall.
> Id trade it to you for PArker and the 10 CPs itll take to get him to
> the majors if you have any interest(tho the CPs would have to be in 66
> and 67).
Now I ask you Greg what I should have done when I got a better offer:
A. Say I like your offer better, but cannot accept it because I have a "handshake agreement" already (which of course I dont think are allowed to exist in the league)
or
B. Accept the better offer?
I'll point out that these sort of situations are exactly why there are clear rules of these things, so everyone can understand what's OK and what isn't. In this case it turns out that what you think I should have done would have been precisely what was against the rules of the league.
I don't really expect that I'll get an apology from you, but maybe this will help you see things from my perspective.
September 13, 2009 at 04:58PM View BBCode
Despite the fact that you're constantly impugning my integrity, I'm going to give it one more try. I dont think I'll change your mind, because that never happens with these things, and I get that you're unhappy. God knows I've gotten livid over things way more trivial than this in sim dynasty (such as the acceptable # of players to use 3 letter initials as names for).If you accept the fact that from my perspective that there are no such thing as a "binding trade" to be carried out in the future, and in fact any sort of implicitly binding handshake agreements are explicitly forbidden in the league (and making them would, might I daresay, lack integrity) then I think it's quite difficult for you to honestly think I did anything wrong (though of course it's easy to be mad that a trade you wanted fell through).
I have included our email exchange for people who may be curious:
Heck, Gregory
Okay - no problem
-----Original Message-----
From: Jon Finkel [mailto:jonfinkel@gmail.com]
Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 9:07 AM
To: Heck, Gregory
- Hide quoted text -
Subject: Re: Sim
I plan on accepting it, but cant till the end of season (ie tomorrow
afternoon) because I cant CP mr parker
On Fri, Sep 11, 2009 at 9:01 AM, Heck, Gregory <GHeck@firstrust.com> wrote:
> Okay - I can do that. I'll make the offer.
>
> -----Original Message-----
> From: Jon Finkel [mailto:jonfinkel@gmail.com]
> Sent: Friday, September 11, 2009 1:09 AM
> To: Heck, Gregory
> Subject: Sim
>
> Im interested in Lefty Parker and in getting rid of the #1 overall.
> Id trade it to you for PArker and the 10 CPs itll take to get him to
> the majors if you have any interest(tho the CPs would have to be in 66
> and 67).
Now I ask you Greg what I should have done when I got a better offer:
A. Say I like your offer better, but cannot accept it because I have a "handshake agreement" already (which of course I dont think are allowed to exist in the league)
or
B. Accept the better offer?
I'll point out that these sort of situations are exactly why there are clear rules of these things, so everyone can understand what's OK and what isn't. In this case it turns out that what you think I should have done would have been precisely what was against the rules of the league.
I don't really expect that I'll get an apology from you, but maybe this will help you see things from my perspective.
Jdredd73
I do sympathize with your anger, especially if you were unaware of this rule.
[Edited on 9-13-2009 by Jdredd73]
September 13, 2009 at 06:06PM View BBCode
I agree with you greg that it would have been better if Jon had said only things like "are you interested in...." instead of "I'd trade you" and "i cant commit to it til seasons over, but i currently plan on accepting" but to be livid that he didnt perfectly use qualifiers in expressing his following of league rules seems a bit extreme.I do sympathize with your anger, especially if you were unaware of this rule.
[Edited on 9-13-2009 by Jdredd73]
Azizal
September 13, 2009 at 07:02PM View BBCode
Yeah Greg I think you got screwed by misunderstanding and differing perspectives, as opposed to being screwed by Jon.Pages: 1