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HollywoodOz
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=545&ncid=755&e=2&u=/ap/20040302/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_steroids_bonds
Get those asterisks out for one Barry Bonds.
[Edited on 2-3-2004 by HollywoodOz]
Had to reappear to say this.
March 02, 2004 at 07:45PM View BBCode
I told you so.http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=545&ncid=755&e=2&u=/ap/20040302/ap_on_sp_ba_ne/bbo_steroids_bonds
Get those asterisks out for one Barry Bonds.
[Edited on 2-3-2004 by HollywoodOz]
sycophantman
welcome back Hollywood, if only for a bit.
Anyone surprised by this, anyone?
I know no one seemed surprised by Bonds and his middle age growth spurt, an unprecidented growth in the history of mankind (if he indeed didn't use 'roids that is...)
Can we stop defending him now, please?
March 02, 2004 at 07:48PM View BBCode
Blast from the past...welcome back Hollywood, if only for a bit.
Anyone surprised by this, anyone?
I know no one seemed surprised by Bonds and his middle age growth spurt, an unprecidented growth in the history of mankind (if he indeed didn't use 'roids that is...)
Can we stop defending him now, please?
skierdude44
March 02, 2004 at 09:10PM View BBCode
doesnt look good for barry, gary, or jason, BUT it also said that anderson offered barry steroids and he REJECTED. it said he never took anything illegal. u need cold hard facts, which this is close to, but isnt.
sycophantman
But I agree, it REALLY doesn't look good for those guys.
March 02, 2004 at 09:15PM View BBCode
We'll have to wait and see.But I agree, it REALLY doesn't look good for those guys.
skierdude44
March 02, 2004 at 09:20PM View BBCode
dawson, how can u say he is guilty. it says he received steroids, not that he actually took them. i receive things in the mail all the time, doesnt mean that i use them. it doesnt look good, but like the constitution says, innocent until proven guilty, without a shadow of a doubt. and there is still some doubt.
ME
March 02, 2004 at 10:10PM View BBCode
Giambi more guilty than Sheffield or LF-SF. It doesn't look good for any of them, but they could go out and prove it all wrong.
ME
March 02, 2004 at 10:10PM View BBCode
LF-SF is as big this year as last year, Giambi claims to have lost only 4 pounds but it looks more like 40.
nextyearcubs
That being said, I'm glad that this situation is being investigated on a federal level. I wouldn't trust baseball - or any professional sports league, but especially baseball - to be able to close the book on this case. If the feds find credible evidence to incarcerate Conte, Anderson, and the rest of the BALCO crew, it no doubt will reveal who among the accused took part as well. The investigation is about getting answers, and if baseball doesn't care enough to find the truth, hopefully the feds do.
I'd just like for this witch hunt to be over. That's what it is, really, fingers pointing everywhere, but nobody really knows for sure, except those involved. It would be nice if baseball would step up and demend stricter testing and punishments from the players' union. If it takes the trashing of our current generation of stars to ensure future ones to be free of steroids, it would be terribly unfortunate, but at this point, it looks like that will be the case.
March 02, 2004 at 11:02PM View BBCode
I think the acid test will be the court trial. The story never named the source or how the information was obtained. Will it be admissable in court? How reliable is the source? Leaks of this nature don't tell the full story, but the court trial should shed more light on this. I don't think anyone has ever been convicted on the basis of a newspaper story.That being said, I'm glad that this situation is being investigated on a federal level. I wouldn't trust baseball - or any professional sports league, but especially baseball - to be able to close the book on this case. If the feds find credible evidence to incarcerate Conte, Anderson, and the rest of the BALCO crew, it no doubt will reveal who among the accused took part as well. The investigation is about getting answers, and if baseball doesn't care enough to find the truth, hopefully the feds do.
I'd just like for this witch hunt to be over. That's what it is, really, fingers pointing everywhere, but nobody really knows for sure, except those involved. It would be nice if baseball would step up and demend stricter testing and punishments from the players' union. If it takes the trashing of our current generation of stars to ensure future ones to be free of steroids, it would be terribly unfortunate, but at this point, it looks like that will be the case.
HollywoodOz
That really is the weakest defence ever. It's not like BALCO was randomly mailing steroids out to baseballers and Giambi's name was on some mailing list from Sears. If he was given them by these people, it's because he asked for them. And likely that they showed him how to use them, how to avoid detection, how often to put them into his system for best results....
And if that's not enough, Giambi's sudden weight drop really is. I mean, come on, what's he been doing, hitting the Atkins diet?
As for Bonds, the story doesn't say he refused to take steroids, it said he was given steroids but refused TGH, a newer steroid that BALCO was working on. I expect he was probably more than happy with the junk he'd been taking since his 73 HR season.
Sosa next, then Boone...
March 02, 2004 at 11:40PM View BBCode
Originally posted by skierdude44
dawson, how can u say he is guilty. it says he received steroids, not that he actually took them. i receive things in the mail all the time, doesnt mean that i use them. it doesnt look good, but like the constitution says, innocent until proven guilty, without a shadow of a doubt. and there is still some doubt.
That really is the weakest defence ever. It's not like BALCO was randomly mailing steroids out to baseballers and Giambi's name was on some mailing list from Sears. If he was given them by these people, it's because he asked for them. And likely that they showed him how to use them, how to avoid detection, how often to put them into his system for best results....
And if that's not enough, Giambi's sudden weight drop really is. I mean, come on, what's he been doing, hitting the Atkins diet?
As for Bonds, the story doesn't say he refused to take steroids, it said he was given steroids but refused TGH, a newer steroid that BALCO was working on. I expect he was probably more than happy with the junk he'd been taking since his 73 HR season.
Sosa next, then Boone...
arodtoo
March 02, 2004 at 11:43PM View BBCode
hey old peopel can come fomr now where to produce great seasons, look at Jamie Moyer, came from nowhere, and now has the most wins of any picther since 1996. and with a 80 mph fastball, he isn't popping steroids http://www.mlb.com/NASApp/mlb/sea/team/sea_player_stats.jsp?playerid=119469&club_context=mlb
skierdude44
March 03, 2004 at 12:15AM View BBCode
hollywood, this is all circumstantial evidence. maybe giambi, sheff, and bonds ordered legal vitimins from BALCO and BALCO gave them some steroids too. i mean u are questioning other people's integrity here and u better be damn sure u are right, because it isnt fair to go around throwing accusations out everywhere. granted it doesnt look good for these guys but i doubt that sheffield is popping roids. i mean he offered to take a drug test and the guy from newsday i think came but didnt have everything in order and was stopped by gene orza. sheff says he spoke out about steroids a few years ago, which i dont know if he did or not. but he is willing to prove his innocence and has never gotten extremely big. there are many reasons for why giambi may have slimmed down, maybe it was his health issues from last year, or the fact that he will be the starter at first base this year, or both. people are comparing bonds to when he broke into the majors, well of course he will be bigger now than he was then, and he was always a top power hitter. even jordan got bigger from when he was a rookie in the nba, it happens. now are these guys guilty, maybe, but u need concrete evidence and to be able to prove beyond a shadow of a doubt that these guys are guilty otherwise they are innocent until proven guilty. you dont know who this source is and if they are credible. i mean the sources that we have heard from that accuse players of steroids are, ken caminiti (who admitted taking steroids), turk wendell (a mediocre reliever, and i completely agree with bonds about wendells comments), and i believe jose canseco. if u consider those reliable sources u need ur head examined. plus their estimates where at between 40 and 60% which is way off. i wish that the players union would just let baseball test everyone and give these guys a chance to clear their names.
Duff77
Yes, we shouldn't jump the gun and call anyone guilty on the basis of circumstanial evidence. Frankly, I don't think we should even worry about what happened in the past. There's no point to it. Just institute a harsh, random testing policy and get the drugs out of the game. We all know there are drugs in the game...we may not know which specific players, but let's just put a stop to it. That's the important thing.
ON THE OTHER HAND, the fact that all the evidence against a certain player is circumstantial doesn't mean he isn't guilty, and it doesn't mean that player shouldn't be held up for public scrutiny. Public scrutiny, in the end, is what gets a hell of a lot of things accomplished in this society.
But like I said, there's no point bickering over individual players. The fact is, nobody will ever prove that Barry was on steroids when he hit 73. It will have, by default, an asterick next to it just becuase of the controversy. Same for McGwire's 70. The point is, and the PROBLEM is, we have reason to suspect so many players, and sheer probability suggests at least several top of the line superstars are guilty. So for me, I don't give a damn if there's "proof" that Barry did it. As far as I'm concerned, every statistic from 1990 on is suspect. That's when you started to see guys balloon into 340 pound behemoth body builders.
So...we're just going to have to live with this. The asterics are there already, and will never be removed. So just get the drugs out of the game and get the season started. I'm sick of winter.
March 03, 2004 at 07:08AM View BBCode
Okay...let me straddle the fence here for a moment...Yes, we shouldn't jump the gun and call anyone guilty on the basis of circumstanial evidence. Frankly, I don't think we should even worry about what happened in the past. There's no point to it. Just institute a harsh, random testing policy and get the drugs out of the game. We all know there are drugs in the game...we may not know which specific players, but let's just put a stop to it. That's the important thing.
ON THE OTHER HAND, the fact that all the evidence against a certain player is circumstantial doesn't mean he isn't guilty, and it doesn't mean that player shouldn't be held up for public scrutiny. Public scrutiny, in the end, is what gets a hell of a lot of things accomplished in this society.
But like I said, there's no point bickering over individual players. The fact is, nobody will ever prove that Barry was on steroids when he hit 73. It will have, by default, an asterick next to it just becuase of the controversy. Same for McGwire's 70. The point is, and the PROBLEM is, we have reason to suspect so many players, and sheer probability suggests at least several top of the line superstars are guilty. So for me, I don't give a damn if there's "proof" that Barry did it. As far as I'm concerned, every statistic from 1990 on is suspect. That's when you started to see guys balloon into 340 pound behemoth body builders.
So...we're just going to have to live with this. The asterics are there already, and will never be removed. So just get the drugs out of the game and get the season started. I'm sick of winter.
sycophantman
The government asked these players to testify beforehand, and they had to have
this information then.
Pretty smart if you ask me, the government must have the goods, because
they are obviously going for perjury charges...
Looks really REALLY bad for these guys, we're talking criminal charges now!
March 03, 2004 at 02:39PM View BBCode
I think the most damning thing here is this...The government asked these players to testify beforehand, and they had to have
this information then.
Pretty smart if you ask me, the government must have the goods, because
they are obviously going for perjury charges...
Looks really REALLY bad for these guys, we're talking criminal charges now!
nextyearcubs
It is highly unlikely that the government would use secret grand jury proceedings to entrap witnesses into perjury. First off, the investigation is not about the players, it is about BALCO, illegal steroid distribution, and tax evasion. Secondly, if the goverment was gunning for the players, why give them immunity? Because the government needed what the players had to say about BALCO to get their indictments on BALCO, not on any players involved. Immunity was not required to get the players to testify, however, the players could simply, legally plead the fifth on every question, unless they were immune from prosecution. Finally, if the goverment were intending on using entrapment (a viable defense for a defendant anyhow)to garner a perjury charge, they would not have given immunity, because the players would be more likely to lie without being immune to prosecution.
I think that we need to remember not to throw stones at those we presume guilty based upon what we see or think we know. The is so much that we don't know, and all any speculation we do here will just be to irritate the fans of whom we suspect, with our trained and up close eyes, of juicing. What we need to hope for isn't finding out who we think is guilty, we need to hope for better, more stringent testing, stronger punishment, and prevention. What has happened in the past happened in the past, and if we will forever refer to the current era as the "Steroid Era", so be it as long as we can say that this era ends now. We need to hope that the bringing of the allegations and indictments out will help end what is and has been going on. I, for one, has always wanted proof, becuase without proof, all you have are accusations and gossip, and those things never get anything done. The proof is slowly building, and now its in Bud's lap... Let us all hope he can cowboy up!
March 03, 2004 at 04:46PM View BBCode
They players didn't testify for the real trial. They testified in front of a grand jury. The point of it is for the grand jury to decide if it is worthy of trial, and which counts to indict on. Grand jury proceedings are secret and do not require unanimous voting by jurors to indict. The players testified in exchange for immunity, even if Bonds himself said he took the juice in front of the grand jury, he could not be convicted.It is highly unlikely that the government would use secret grand jury proceedings to entrap witnesses into perjury. First off, the investigation is not about the players, it is about BALCO, illegal steroid distribution, and tax evasion. Secondly, if the goverment was gunning for the players, why give them immunity? Because the government needed what the players had to say about BALCO to get their indictments on BALCO, not on any players involved. Immunity was not required to get the players to testify, however, the players could simply, legally plead the fifth on every question, unless they were immune from prosecution. Finally, if the goverment were intending on using entrapment (a viable defense for a defendant anyhow)to garner a perjury charge, they would not have given immunity, because the players would be more likely to lie without being immune to prosecution.
I think that we need to remember not to throw stones at those we presume guilty based upon what we see or think we know. The is so much that we don't know, and all any speculation we do here will just be to irritate the fans of whom we suspect, with our trained and up close eyes, of juicing. What we need to hope for isn't finding out who we think is guilty, we need to hope for better, more stringent testing, stronger punishment, and prevention. What has happened in the past happened in the past, and if we will forever refer to the current era as the "Steroid Era", so be it as long as we can say that this era ends now. We need to hope that the bringing of the allegations and indictments out will help end what is and has been going on. I, for one, has always wanted proof, becuase without proof, all you have are accusations and gossip, and those things never get anything done. The proof is slowly building, and now its in Bud's lap... Let us all hope he can cowboy up!
skierdude44
March 03, 2004 at 06:31PM View BBCode
duff i agree that public scrutiny gets things done, but just saying "bonds is guilty" or "giambi is juicin" isnt gonna get us anywhere. u could say that giambi was on steroids because he put up great numbers in the past and was rather big and now he has slimmed down considerably, but i could tell you that he slimmed down because of his health problems last year and the fact that he will be playing a lot more first base this year, so u dont really get anywhere. that is why u need concrete, undisputable evidence, otherwise u are just running around like the salem witch trials. i agree also that whats done is done and lets get some strict testing in here and then punish those who are guilty.
happy
Also, Jeff Kent pointed out that no one knows what kind of drugs Ruth mightve been taking while he was playing baseball.
March 04, 2004 at 04:27PM View BBCode
all right hollywood, i concede. I never really thought that he did steiroids, and i stuck with him throughout this, but now i gotta face the facts, but lets look at something else. These people took Steiroids and/or HGH. HGH has not been outlawed by MLB yet, so if Bonds took HGH, he doesnt deserve to be in so much trouble.Also, Jeff Kent pointed out that no one knows what kind of drugs Ruth mightve been taking while he was playing baseball.
skierdude44
March 04, 2004 at 06:19PM View BBCode
lyea happy there were steroids back then.:puzzled: seriously though, no one knows if bonds did or didnt take steroids except for greg anderson and bonds himself. thats right greg anderson, not hollywood, not me, not any of us. so, barry has denied it, so unless the feds can get greg anderson to say barry bonds took steroids and have a case to back that up than he is INNOCENT.
happy
and although i dont think there were steiroids back then (although there mightve been) there were all kinds of supplemental drugs.
March 04, 2004 at 09:59PM View BBCode
Oh, i thought that Anderson said he took steiroids. Everyone said that Giambi looked about 50 pounds lighter this year, but Bonds didnt look much smaller. Some people talked about how small he looked, but he didnt look that much different.and although i dont think there were steiroids back then (although there mightve been) there were all kinds of supplemental drugs.
happy
March 04, 2004 at 10:00PM View BBCode
oh also, hollywood, gotta give it to you on the dynasty team names.
HollywoodOz
They're very near and dear to me, thanks for noticing Happy.
On the topic of Bonds, look - I'm not a lawyer, so I don't need to temper my comments of play the 'innocent until proven guilty' game. I can make an assessment in the info available and judge for myself whether I think someone is guilty or not.
And yeah, I think Bonds is guilty. And I think Giambi is guilty. And I know McGwire was. And I think Sosa was. And I think Boone was. And I think Brady Anderson was. Canseco admits he was, so does Caminitti, and I'm sure as hell not going to discount Turk Wendell's opinion just because his ERA isn't low.
I've said this before, but if 'between 5 and 7% of major leaguers' tested positive for steroids last year when:
A) They knew thye were going to be tested
B) There are other drugs, such as TGH and HGH out there that aren't tested for.
...and they STILL got one positive from every team in the league, then I'm going to say that in the years previous there were ten times that number on the juice. Only the absolute idiots of the game would have stayed on the juice last season and they still got 5-7% positives?
Sheesh.
And yes, it does do us good to accuse without proof, because that kind of outrage will get the Player's Union to finally get off their asses and do something about this. If we forever make excuses and say 'oh, the Feds will catch them one day' or 'there's a one-year ban after five (!) positive tests, so it's all good', then this will never get sorted. The only way to make it change is to accuse all players with the slightest hint of suspicion, and make them prove to their employers (the fans) that they're clean.
And if that kind of a drug testing policy is good enough for people who have nine to five jobs in an office, I'm damn sure it's good enough for guys getting paid $20m a year to play baseball.
[Edited on 4-3-2004 by HollywoodOz]
March 04, 2004 at 11:11PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
oh also, hollywood, gotta give it to you on the dynasty team names.
They're very near and dear to me, thanks for noticing Happy.
On the topic of Bonds, look - I'm not a lawyer, so I don't need to temper my comments of play the 'innocent until proven guilty' game. I can make an assessment in the info available and judge for myself whether I think someone is guilty or not.
And yeah, I think Bonds is guilty. And I think Giambi is guilty. And I know McGwire was. And I think Sosa was. And I think Boone was. And I think Brady Anderson was. Canseco admits he was, so does Caminitti, and I'm sure as hell not going to discount Turk Wendell's opinion just because his ERA isn't low.
I've said this before, but if 'between 5 and 7% of major leaguers' tested positive for steroids last year when:
A) They knew thye were going to be tested
B) There are other drugs, such as TGH and HGH out there that aren't tested for.
...and they STILL got one positive from every team in the league, then I'm going to say that in the years previous there were ten times that number on the juice. Only the absolute idiots of the game would have stayed on the juice last season and they still got 5-7% positives?
Sheesh.
And yes, it does do us good to accuse without proof, because that kind of outrage will get the Player's Union to finally get off their asses and do something about this. If we forever make excuses and say 'oh, the Feds will catch them one day' or 'there's a one-year ban after five (!) positive tests, so it's all good', then this will never get sorted. The only way to make it change is to accuse all players with the slightest hint of suspicion, and make them prove to their employers (the fans) that they're clean.
And if that kind of a drug testing policy is good enough for people who have nine to five jobs in an office, I'm damn sure it's good enough for guys getting paid $20m a year to play baseball.
[Edited on 4-3-2004 by HollywoodOz]
happy
I think Turk Wendell is a TOTAL moron. People care less about Turk Wendell taking steiroids. If his personal trainer was in front of the courts, no one would care. People think people like Bonds is on steiroids because they play good. People dont automatically think Wendell took steiroids.
I DO NOT think Anderson took steiroids. Very big DO NOT.
other than that, all this juice talk is getting me thirsty:P
March 05, 2004 at 12:41AM View BBCode
"I'm sure as hell not going to discount Turk Wendell's opinion just because his ERA isn't low. "I think Turk Wendell is a TOTAL moron. People care less about Turk Wendell taking steiroids. If his personal trainer was in front of the courts, no one would care. People think people like Bonds is on steiroids because they play good. People dont automatically think Wendell took steiroids.
I DO NOT think Anderson took steiroids. Very big DO NOT.
other than that, all this juice talk is getting me thirsty:P
skierdude44
March 05, 2004 at 03:19AM View BBCode
i believe anderson said he offered bonds THG and he rejected. thats all i know about that. and hollywood if u wanna play that game than u are a murder, i have no proof but im just gonna go slinging accusations around. and im as much outraged about steroids as u are but im not gonna go convicting people that i dont have concrete facts on. i would threaten to boycott the game if no testing was implemented, that would get results not this gay name calling and finger pointing. and im not discounting turk wendell's opinion bcuz his era is high, im discounting it bcuz he acted like a moron. i dont know exactly what he said, but it was basically was accusing bonds of being on steroids without any proof. i agree with bonds when he said if u have a problem with me come say it to my face, dont accuse me of something without concrete evidence infront of the media.
jzyehoshua
[Edited on 10-10-2007 by jzyehoshua]
March 05, 2004 at 04:46AM View BBCode
Ok, as for Bonds, the guy sure didn't act innocent when that reporter asked him about the steroids. He's also known to have a 'slight' attitude problem. As for Giambi, if he lost anything it was 44 pounds, not 4, and his daily diet of steroid supplements. I think it's pretty much a sure thing that they're both guilty. You take Bonds, why's the guy breaking records now that he's past his prime. Giambi's lost pork is pretty condemning by itself, not to mention that he didn't start having straight 40 homer seasons until 2000, when he was 29 and going past his prime. Incidentally, that's the same year Bonds homerun totals stopped declining (he was 36) and started climbing instead. Before that his best year was 93 when he had 46 homeruns but starting in 2000 on up his homerun totals have been as follows: 49, 73, 46, 45. At first I was inclined to think Sheff innocent too but looking at the stats he honly had 2 seasons of 30 or more homers before 1999 but that year at 31 years old he started hitting bombs too, with homerun totals since then of 34, 43, 36, 25, and 39. Bonds and Giambi have both lost trainers but as far as I know Sheff hasn't. Going by numbers alone it looks like this bunch of guys had some reason for their homerun totals shooting up once they reached their 30's, and I doubt it was just because of healthy living.[Edited on 10-10-2007 by jzyehoshua]
jzyehoshua
[Edited on 10-10-2007 by jzyehoshua]
March 05, 2004 at 04:49AM View BBCode
All the same, I guess all we can do is wait and see but I'll say this: if there is any drug-slugging going on I want to see it kicked out so the best team can win rather than the one with the most drugged up goons.[Edited on 10-10-2007 by jzyehoshua]
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