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Bob
Bill Byrd is the only starting pitcher nominated this year. His career numbers are remarkably similar to Bill Toland, who looks like he will make the HOF. The major difference is that Byrd pitched over 200 fewer innings than Toland. Byrd appeared in 1 more All Star games (6 to 5), but Toland started 4 AS games, versus only 1 for Byrd. Toland also won a Cy Young and finished in the top 5 three other times, whereas Byrd was in the top 5 twice and never won. Although Toland was a slightly better pitcher, I still think Byrdâ??s 6 AS games are enough to get him in. Vote: YES.
This year there are four relievers eligible, and two of them are strong candidates. In alphabetical order:
Dixon, Roy: 4.42 ERA and a 1.44 WHIP. That ainâ??t good enough for the HOF. Vote: NO.
Greenfield, Jack: 6 time All Star and 3 time Fireman winner. 318 saves is the most of any retired player. 2.86 ERA and 1.17 WHIP arenâ??t overwhelming, but heâ??s one of the best relievers of his generation. Vote: YES.
McCabe, Paul: A poor manâ??s Jack Greenfield. 6 AS games, but never won the Fireman award (he did finish in the top 5 four times, though). Slightly worse ERA, WHIP and saves than Greenfield. He is a really tough call for me, but 6 AS games does it. Vote: YES.
White, Tex: 6 career saves for a reliever doesnâ??t warrant the HOF. Vote: NO.
Now for the position players:
Fisher, Danny (1B): 5 time All Star, 4 as a starter. .300 career average. However, he barely averaged 50 runs scored per year. Heâ??s a difficult call and I could certainly see him making it. However, I think he falls just a whisker short. Vote: NO.
Schulz, Ubaldo (2B): 7 time AS, 5 as a starter. Career average of .308. Leads all retired players in runs scored and is 2nd in RBI (only 2 behind Chuck Frey). The only downside is he made an incredible 198 errors. Still, his numbers are too good to be ignored. Vote: YES.
Lilly, Tiger (3B): Appeared in 4 All Star games. Drove in 825 runs and scored 672. However, his AVG, OBA and SLG are all lower than Fisherâ??s. Another brutally difficult decision. Certainly deserves a close look, but I canâ??t quite pull the trigger. Vote: NO.
Madrid, Caligula (3B): Not really close. Vote: NO.
Nelson, Peanuts (3B): Not really close, either. Vote: NO.
McGee, Wally (C): Career AVG of .320 and OPS of .934. RBI and runs scored are not what youâ??d expect given those numbers â?? mainly because he only averaged 112 games per year. Still, played in 5 AS games and with those numbers, I think he makes it. Vote: YES.
Gundersonn, Cornelius (CF): Career AVG of .291 is impressive, but 513 RBI is not. Good player who deserves consideration, but only 2 AS appearances tips the scales against him. Vote: NO.
Ruebel, Dan (CF): Career OPS of .885 and AVG of .293 are excellent. However, he barely averaged 100 games per year, and those numbers are good enough to overcome that. Plus, he only played in 1 AS game, and that isnâ??t good enough. Vote: NO.
Bedell, Night (RF): .768 OPS and only 447 RBI is enough to keep him out of the HOF. Vote: NO.
In summary, I vote â??yesâ?? on Byrd, Greenfield, McCabe, Schulz and McGee. â??Noâ?? on the rest, although Iâ??m still waffling on Fisher and Lilly.
Iâ??ve sent the spreadsheet with all the stats (for these guys and all previous nominees) to BC â?? hopefully heâ??ll be able to post these on the web. Iâ??m also happy to send a copy via e-mail to anyone who wants one. Just send me a U2U with your e-mail address.
Class of 1960
December 02, 2002 at 03:18PM View BBCode
Wow, now the decisions get tough. This year weâ??ve got 14 candidates (9 position players and 5 pitchers) and I think 9 of them deserve serious consideration.Bill Byrd is the only starting pitcher nominated this year. His career numbers are remarkably similar to Bill Toland, who looks like he will make the HOF. The major difference is that Byrd pitched over 200 fewer innings than Toland. Byrd appeared in 1 more All Star games (6 to 5), but Toland started 4 AS games, versus only 1 for Byrd. Toland also won a Cy Young and finished in the top 5 three other times, whereas Byrd was in the top 5 twice and never won. Although Toland was a slightly better pitcher, I still think Byrdâ??s 6 AS games are enough to get him in. Vote: YES.
This year there are four relievers eligible, and two of them are strong candidates. In alphabetical order:
Dixon, Roy: 4.42 ERA and a 1.44 WHIP. That ainâ??t good enough for the HOF. Vote: NO.
Greenfield, Jack: 6 time All Star and 3 time Fireman winner. 318 saves is the most of any retired player. 2.86 ERA and 1.17 WHIP arenâ??t overwhelming, but heâ??s one of the best relievers of his generation. Vote: YES.
McCabe, Paul: A poor manâ??s Jack Greenfield. 6 AS games, but never won the Fireman award (he did finish in the top 5 four times, though). Slightly worse ERA, WHIP and saves than Greenfield. He is a really tough call for me, but 6 AS games does it. Vote: YES.
White, Tex: 6 career saves for a reliever doesnâ??t warrant the HOF. Vote: NO.
Now for the position players:
Fisher, Danny (1B): 5 time All Star, 4 as a starter. .300 career average. However, he barely averaged 50 runs scored per year. Heâ??s a difficult call and I could certainly see him making it. However, I think he falls just a whisker short. Vote: NO.
Schulz, Ubaldo (2B): 7 time AS, 5 as a starter. Career average of .308. Leads all retired players in runs scored and is 2nd in RBI (only 2 behind Chuck Frey). The only downside is he made an incredible 198 errors. Still, his numbers are too good to be ignored. Vote: YES.
Lilly, Tiger (3B): Appeared in 4 All Star games. Drove in 825 runs and scored 672. However, his AVG, OBA and SLG are all lower than Fisherâ??s. Another brutally difficult decision. Certainly deserves a close look, but I canâ??t quite pull the trigger. Vote: NO.
Madrid, Caligula (3B): Not really close. Vote: NO.
Nelson, Peanuts (3B): Not really close, either. Vote: NO.
McGee, Wally (C): Career AVG of .320 and OPS of .934. RBI and runs scored are not what youâ??d expect given those numbers â?? mainly because he only averaged 112 games per year. Still, played in 5 AS games and with those numbers, I think he makes it. Vote: YES.
Gundersonn, Cornelius (CF): Career AVG of .291 is impressive, but 513 RBI is not. Good player who deserves consideration, but only 2 AS appearances tips the scales against him. Vote: NO.
Ruebel, Dan (CF): Career OPS of .885 and AVG of .293 are excellent. However, he barely averaged 100 games per year, and those numbers are good enough to overcome that. Plus, he only played in 1 AS game, and that isnâ??t good enough. Vote: NO.
Bedell, Night (RF): .768 OPS and only 447 RBI is enough to keep him out of the HOF. Vote: NO.
In summary, I vote â??yesâ?? on Byrd, Greenfield, McCabe, Schulz and McGee. â??Noâ?? on the rest, although Iâ??m still waffling on Fisher and Lilly.
Iâ??ve sent the spreadsheet with all the stats (for these guys and all previous nominees) to BC â?? hopefully heâ??ll be able to post these on the web. Iâ??m also happy to send a copy via e-mail to anyone who wants one. Just send me a U2U with your e-mail address.
FiveToolPlayer
YES
Bill Byrd - Yes
Ubaldo Shulz - Yes (This guy couldn't field but his bat in the middle of the PK lineup put us over the top. He won two championships if that means anything)
Wally McGee - Yes (He got injured once a year, limiting his games but the guy was a hitting machine)
Jack Greenfield - Yes
NO
Paul McCabe - No (Saves are an overrated stat so unless you are the best, you shouldn't be in the HOF)
Everyone else - No
NOTES
I'm really not sure what to do with Fisher. His runs were so low because he was a D- in speed. As you know, this makes it virtually impossible to score from second. In real life, that isn't very realistic as my grandma could score on a single 50% of the time. So if you are waffling on him because of runs, maybe that will sway you.
December 02, 2002 at 03:40PM View BBCode
I managed a few of these guys so this is fun to vote on.YES
Bill Byrd - Yes
Ubaldo Shulz - Yes (This guy couldn't field but his bat in the middle of the PK lineup put us over the top. He won two championships if that means anything)
Wally McGee - Yes (He got injured once a year, limiting his games but the guy was a hitting machine)
Jack Greenfield - Yes
NO
Paul McCabe - No (Saves are an overrated stat so unless you are the best, you shouldn't be in the HOF)
Everyone else - No
NOTES
I'm really not sure what to do with Fisher. His runs were so low because he was a D- in speed. As you know, this makes it virtually impossible to score from second. In real life, that isn't very realistic as my grandma could score on a single 50% of the time. So if you are waffling on him because of runs, maybe that will sway you.
jer2911
"Saves are an overrated stat" --FiveToolPlayer
December 02, 2002 at 03:58PM View BBCode
I'm glad to know that it is not just me that thinks that. If you get a save it should be really hard to get one. To get a save, "I" think that the tying run should be up to bat when you enter the game. That truely is a save.
celamantia
Dixon: NO
Greenfield: YES
McCabe: YES
White: NO
Fisher: YES
Schulz: YES
Lilly: NO
Madrid: NO
Nelson: NO
McGee: YES (even though he always seemed to be injured)
Gundersonn: Hmm... let me think about this one some more
Ruebel: NO
Bedell: NO
--Chris
December 02, 2002 at 04:30PM View BBCode
Byrd: NODixon: NO
Greenfield: YES
McCabe: YES
White: NO
Fisher: YES
Schulz: YES
Lilly: NO
Madrid: NO
Nelson: NO
McGee: YES (even though he always seemed to be injured)
Gundersonn: Hmm... let me think about this one some more
Ruebel: NO
Bedell: NO
--Chris
andrew
No to the rest, also I agree on saves being over rated.
December 02, 2002 at 08:33PM View BBCode
Yes- Byrd, Shulz (Barly though because of horrible defence), Fisher, McGee, Greenfield.No to the rest, also I agree on saves being over rated.
celamantia
--Chris
December 02, 2002 at 08:45PM View BBCode
I'm not counting Schulz's errors against him because I still think ABE's error logic it a bit wonky.--Chris
hcboomer
I'm with the "saves are overrated" contingent, particularly in Sim Dynasty, where if you've got two top relievers, the better of the two should probably be in the setup/closer role because he'll get more innings. So within Sim world, the saves are even more a function of usage. Pains me to vote against McCabe -- since he was a key contributor to some Steamroller champions -- but neither he nor Greenfield have the peripheral stats worthy of HOF consideration.
One note on McGee -- aside from his injuries, one reason his RBI total was so low is that, if memory serves, he batted leadoff for a few years early in his career. Back in the pre-Five Tool era in Washington, I believe the team may have been on auto-pilot for a season or two and McGee was sort of the default leadoff guy. He might have been there on purpose, but regardless, that spot in the order did affect his numbers a bit.
December 02, 2002 at 08:54PM View BBCode
I'll go with Byrd, Schulz and McGee.I'm with the "saves are overrated" contingent, particularly in Sim Dynasty, where if you've got two top relievers, the better of the two should probably be in the setup/closer role because he'll get more innings. So within Sim world, the saves are even more a function of usage. Pains me to vote against McCabe -- since he was a key contributor to some Steamroller champions -- but neither he nor Greenfield have the peripheral stats worthy of HOF consideration.
One note on McGee -- aside from his injuries, one reason his RBI total was so low is that, if memory serves, he batted leadoff for a few years early in his career. Back in the pre-Five Tool era in Washington, I believe the team may have been on auto-pilot for a season or two and McGee was sort of the default leadoff guy. He might have been there on purpose, but regardless, that spot in the order did affect his numbers a bit.
geoffrey13
Byrd, Greenfield, McCabe, Shulz, McGee are yes.
This is actually the class of 1961, right? There was never a vote for last seasons including guys li
December 02, 2002 at 11:26PM View BBCode
Having said that.Byrd, Greenfield, McCabe, Shulz, McGee are yes.
geoffrey13
Correct class, players missed from class of '59.
December 02, 2002 at 11:34PM View BBCode
Please see the 1959 class thread, Hank Kimbro should definitely have been included for consideration.
geoffrey13
Kimbro's Card
December 02, 2002 at 11:42PM View BBCode
http://www.simdynasty.com/beta/player.jsp?id=453
jer2911
I just typed up a long post for this, and then IE locked up on me.
Anyway, I think waht it came down to was yes on Greenfield, McCabe, McGee, Byrd, Fisher, Schulz. Gundersonn was a conditional yes, because of his low RBI totals, but if it can be explained by the fact that he batted #1 or #2 in the lineup then he gets my vote otherwise its a no. Does anyone remember?
December 03, 2002 at 01:09AM View BBCode
Argh!!!:mad::mad::mad:I just typed up a long post for this, and then IE locked up on me.
Anyway, I think waht it came down to was yes on Greenfield, McCabe, McGee, Byrd, Fisher, Schulz. Gundersonn was a conditional yes, because of his low RBI totals, but if it can be explained by the fact that he batted #1 or #2 in the lineup then he gets my vote otherwise its a no. Does anyone remember?
rickoshea
Others, including Kimbro: No
December 03, 2002 at 02:15AM View BBCode
Byrd, Greenfield, McCabe, and McGee: YesOthers, including Kimbro: No
dawgfan
Roy Dixon was a decent pitcher, but heâ??s nowhere close enough to qualify as a relief pitcher IMO â?? only 149 saves, 1.44 WHIP and 4.42 ERA just donâ??t cut it. Heâ??s a NO
Jack Greenfield is definitely one of the better closers from his era, but I just donâ??t see the domination I require from a Hall-of-Fame candidate reliever. I place a high bar for relief pitchers to qualify, and outside of outstanding seasons in â??53 and â??57 I just donâ??t see it with him. Heâ??s a NO
Paul McCabe to me was a better closer than Greenfield, but he still falls just shy of what Iâ??m looking for in a Hall-of-Fame reliever. The 1.22 WHIP, 2.98 ERA and 303 saves are just a hair short of what Iâ??d deem Hall-worthy. Itâ??s close, but heâ??s a NO
Tex White was a serviceable reliever, but well short of Hall-of-Fame standards. Heâ??s a NO
Danny Fisher was one of the best 1B of his generation as his 4 All-star starts and 1 reserve indicate. While his career offensive numbers arenâ??t eye-popping (.869 OPS, .489 SLG), he did draw a ton of walks and hit for a high average making him one of the top on-base machines in the game. Given the context, with a lack of great 1B so far, I think he qualifies as the first inductee at the position â?? his All-star nods push him over the top for me. Heâ??s a YES
Ubaldo Schulz was an offensive powerhouse at 2B for most of his career. He easily outdistances all other retired 2B in production and is one of the best ever with a career .905 OPS and 268 HR. He was a 5-time All-star starter and 2-time reserve. His error total is a bit high, but not enough to negate his offensive contributions. Heâ??s a YES
Tiger Lilly is a real tough call at 3B. Heâ??s got the best numbers of all the retired 3B, and had the monster season in â??57. On the other hand, he wasnâ??t great defensively, and didnâ??t have enough power (IMO) to make up for relatively low batting averages and OBPâ??s. The telling thing for me is that he was an All-star starter only once; I believe there are more deserving candidates that will soon retire and make this decision clearer. Heâ??s close, but heâ??s a NO
Caligula Madrid was a 1-time All-star reserve, but he really didnâ??t have an outstanding career. A career .753 OPS tells the story here. Heâ??s a NO
Peanuts Wilson is in almost exactly the same boat as Madrid â?? good, but not Hall-of-Fame material. Heâ??s a NO
Wally McGee was an outstanding C early in his career before settling into a part-time role. Normally, the lack of playing time would be a real concern for me but his numbers are just too good to ignore especially when you look at his stretch from â??50-â??55 that included 3 seasons with an OPS over 1.000. His career OPS of .934 is tops among all retired players, and his HR total of 256 is 4th. Heâ??s a YES
Cornelius Gunderson was a real solid OF for a number of seasons, and his numbers arenâ??t awful. With his runs-scored and RBI numbers, along with his OBP, Iâ??m assuming he spent most of his career batting near the top of the lineup. While he was good, thereâ??s nothing outstanding about his career that makes him a Hall-of-Famer IMO. Heâ??s a NO
Dan Ruebel is an interesting case as a CF. While his OPS is very good (.885) and he had an outstanding 3-year stretch from â??51-â??53, his relatively low number of AB per season hurts his cause, as does his low All-star total (1 reserve appearance). He may have been a viable candidate if he could have stayed in the lineup a little more often. As it is, heâ??s close but a NO
Night Bedell was a solid OF, but heâ??s not Hall-of-Fame material. A career OPS of .768 speaks volumes. Heâ??s a NO
To summarize, I vote YES to the following:
Bill Byrd
Danny Fisher
Ubaldo Schulz
Wally McGee
December 04, 2002 at 01:11AM View BBCode
Bill Byrd was an outstanding pitcher, and his career numbers are too good to pass up: 154-73 record, 1.08 WHIP, 2.25 ERA and 6 All-star appearances all seem good enough to qualify. Still, I wonder if in 10 seasons weâ??ll look as favorably on his career when the current crop of studs retire. Despite this, I say heâ??s a YESRoy Dixon was a decent pitcher, but heâ??s nowhere close enough to qualify as a relief pitcher IMO â?? only 149 saves, 1.44 WHIP and 4.42 ERA just donâ??t cut it. Heâ??s a NO
Jack Greenfield is definitely one of the better closers from his era, but I just donâ??t see the domination I require from a Hall-of-Fame candidate reliever. I place a high bar for relief pitchers to qualify, and outside of outstanding seasons in â??53 and â??57 I just donâ??t see it with him. Heâ??s a NO
Paul McCabe to me was a better closer than Greenfield, but he still falls just shy of what Iâ??m looking for in a Hall-of-Fame reliever. The 1.22 WHIP, 2.98 ERA and 303 saves are just a hair short of what Iâ??d deem Hall-worthy. Itâ??s close, but heâ??s a NO
Tex White was a serviceable reliever, but well short of Hall-of-Fame standards. Heâ??s a NO
Danny Fisher was one of the best 1B of his generation as his 4 All-star starts and 1 reserve indicate. While his career offensive numbers arenâ??t eye-popping (.869 OPS, .489 SLG), he did draw a ton of walks and hit for a high average making him one of the top on-base machines in the game. Given the context, with a lack of great 1B so far, I think he qualifies as the first inductee at the position â?? his All-star nods push him over the top for me. Heâ??s a YES
Ubaldo Schulz was an offensive powerhouse at 2B for most of his career. He easily outdistances all other retired 2B in production and is one of the best ever with a career .905 OPS and 268 HR. He was a 5-time All-star starter and 2-time reserve. His error total is a bit high, but not enough to negate his offensive contributions. Heâ??s a YES
Tiger Lilly is a real tough call at 3B. Heâ??s got the best numbers of all the retired 3B, and had the monster season in â??57. On the other hand, he wasnâ??t great defensively, and didnâ??t have enough power (IMO) to make up for relatively low batting averages and OBPâ??s. The telling thing for me is that he was an All-star starter only once; I believe there are more deserving candidates that will soon retire and make this decision clearer. Heâ??s close, but heâ??s a NO
Caligula Madrid was a 1-time All-star reserve, but he really didnâ??t have an outstanding career. A career .753 OPS tells the story here. Heâ??s a NO
Peanuts Wilson is in almost exactly the same boat as Madrid â?? good, but not Hall-of-Fame material. Heâ??s a NO
Wally McGee was an outstanding C early in his career before settling into a part-time role. Normally, the lack of playing time would be a real concern for me but his numbers are just too good to ignore especially when you look at his stretch from â??50-â??55 that included 3 seasons with an OPS over 1.000. His career OPS of .934 is tops among all retired players, and his HR total of 256 is 4th. Heâ??s a YES
Cornelius Gunderson was a real solid OF for a number of seasons, and his numbers arenâ??t awful. With his runs-scored and RBI numbers, along with his OBP, Iâ??m assuming he spent most of his career batting near the top of the lineup. While he was good, thereâ??s nothing outstanding about his career that makes him a Hall-of-Famer IMO. Heâ??s a NO
Dan Ruebel is an interesting case as a CF. While his OPS is very good (.885) and he had an outstanding 3-year stretch from â??51-â??53, his relatively low number of AB per season hurts his cause, as does his low All-star total (1 reserve appearance). He may have been a viable candidate if he could have stayed in the lineup a little more often. As it is, heâ??s close but a NO
Night Bedell was a solid OF, but heâ??s not Hall-of-Fame material. A career OPS of .768 speaks volumes. Heâ??s a NO
To summarize, I vote YES to the following:
Bill Byrd
Danny Fisher
Ubaldo Schulz
Wally McGee
dawgfan
December 04, 2002 at 01:14AM View BBCode
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