 |
View Old Forum Thread
Old Forum Index » Other Stuff » Off Topic » Bad News for Cubs/Cards/Reds fans
ME
Beltran will play center, Biggio left and Berkman right, giving them FOUR PLAYERS of "B" alliteration in their lineup along with Bagwell. Oakland gets a good reliever for a team with amazingly good starters and the 2nd worst and least used bullpen.
Bad News for Cubs/Cards/Reds fans
June 25, 2004 at 01:50AM View BBCode
CARLOS BELTRAN was traded to the Astros today. Octavio Dotel went to Oakland. KC got a pitcher and top minors 3B for oakland, and a top minors catcher for houston.Beltran will play center, Biggio left and Berkman right, giving them FOUR PLAYERS of "B" alliteration in their lineup along with Bagwell. Oakland gets a good reliever for a team with amazingly good starters and the 2nd worst and least used bullpen.
Unclescam777
June 25, 2004 at 01:53AM View BBCode
Beltran is great but I'm not so sure how smart it was to give up Dotel, especially after losing Wagnar. Dotel has one of the nastiest breaking balls I've ever seen. Once he gets ahead in the count he's one of the best relievers in the game. I've been following him since he was a Met
skierdude44
June 25, 2004 at 02:00AM View BBCode
Wow thats a blockbuster. Beltran might stay in Houston too when his contract runs out. He said that he wants to play for a contender but whats to retain some of the anonymousness (is that a word?) that he had in KC. People in KC didnt recognize him in the mall or the supermarket and he will be able to keep some of that in Houston. If he went to New York or Boston then he wouldnt be able to go anywhere without being recognized.
hobos
June 25, 2004 at 02:25AM View BBCode
Personally, I think Houston came out of the trade in the worst position. Beltran is a nice rent-a-player, but is he really a huge improvement over Lane? They're the same age, and Beltran is clearly better, but Houston lost a great reliever and a very good catching prospect for a small improvement. Oakland came out with what they need, cash a good reliever. They gave up a young pitcher that they don't need and a 3B who had to hide behind a superior 3B. KC got just what they needed, a young 3B and a young C
jojo888
June 25, 2004 at 02:36AM View BBCode
Yeah, the Astros won't benefit much. Personally, I think Beltran is overrated.
Cubsfan13
June 25, 2004 at 02:46AM View BBCode
Houston pushed the panic button after falling 6 back, and by doing so probably sacrificed a lot in the next few years. I still don't think they will make the playoffs.
ME
probable lineup:
Biggio
Everett
Beltran
Berkman
Kent
Bagwell
Ensberg/Lamb
Ausmus
best lineup:
Biggio
Beltran
Berkman
Kent
Bagwell
Everett
Ensberg/Lamb
Ausmus
June 25, 2004 at 02:59AM View BBCode
houston is a win now team with a lot of veterans, so it is a good move for them. they picked up some ok relievers when they traded hidalgo and dotel wasn't having a great year anyways. Beltran is a lot better than lane and makes their outfield defense way better. jimy williams is a bad manager so he will probably go with the worse of these lineups:probable lineup:
Biggio
Everett
Beltran
Berkman
Kent
Bagwell
Ensberg/Lamb
Ausmus
best lineup:
Biggio
Beltran
Berkman
Kent
Bagwell
Everett
Ensberg/Lamb
Ausmus
jojo888
June 25, 2004 at 03:04AM View BBCode
Ensberg/Lamb should bat seventh, and Everett should bat eighth.
skierdude44
June 25, 2004 at 03:04AM View BBCode
Well, Beltran may very well stay with the Astros because he wants to play for a contender which they are. I have heard talk that they were thinking about demoting Dotel and promoting Lidge to the closers role anyway but he is a pretty big loss. Beltran has contact, speed, power, defense, and is a quiet guy who is great around the club house so in that respect he is a good pickup. If he comes back next year to Houston then I think they made a very good trade but if he doesnt then they made a horrible trade.
farfetched
Beltran to Houston? Did they really need another bat? I say they should've kept with Dotel myself... Either way, I guess we'll see how things pan out.
June 25, 2004 at 04:27AM View BBCode
skier, the word you're going for is 'anonymity.' I hate that word myself, but that's just I.Beltran to Houston? Did they really need another bat? I say they should've kept with Dotel myself... Either way, I guess we'll see how things pan out.
nextyearcubs
I don't know where all this "great clubhouse guy" stuff comes from. This was the same guy who refused a minor league rehab assignment in his second year in the league. Oh yeah... look it up, I remembered hearing about it and lo and behold, the story is still online for those who care: [url=http://examiner.net/stories/081700/roy_081700033.shtml]prima donna[/url] Now sure, maybe he's changed, but he sat out the rest of that season with that bruise... Maybe his checkered past is forgotten, but it still is checkered. Don't forget he had the gall to pull that one his second year in the league.
At first this bothered me, but think about what they did here... Hidalgo is gone, traded for Weathers. Dotel is gone, traded for Beltran. I don't see Beltran being THAT much more better than Hidalgo to justify the step down to Weathers from Dotel. Remember that Dotel was the guy that allowed the 'stros to trade Wagner in the first place. Jimy Williams (nicknamed captain hook for his penchant for removing pitchers) has a weakened bullpen, last year they had three great relievers and now they're down to one. Lidge might be a good closer but that team needs a strong bullpen because of how the pitchers are managed.
Beltran is an obvious step up in center, but I cheered when Hidalgo was traded last week. He had a deadly arm and covered pretty good ground, and had good power as well. He was a victim of having a huge contract that his performance, while good, didn't justify. The Mets got lucky on that one, Hidalgo was a steal for them... Journeyman reliever for overpaid but talented RF? If you have the money, you do that deal again and again.
If you've ever watched an Astros game, you'd realize that Everett hitting second is where he belongs. He is an good bunter and can often turn a sacrifice situation into a hit... He's pesky and if you're rooting for the other team (which I am when I watch the astros) you hate to see him up with a man on and less than two outs. He does the things it take to win that aren't reflected in the box score. I'd LOVE to see him hit in front of the pitcher... He's infinately more dangerous hitting in front of the meat of the lineup.
But this makes things all the more interesting. By depleting their pitching, are the Astros making a mistake? Can the Astros sign Beltran to a long term deal now that they've acquired him for the stretch? Can Lidge step into the closer's role and take care of business? How will Beltran adjust to quirky Enron/Minute Maid Field's centerfield?
Overall, I think this is a good, gutsy move by the Astos, but one that can definately backfire when you look at the bullpen. It should be a good, long summer... If anyone cares, I'll get to see Betran firsthand next Wednesday at Wrigley... Prior vs. Clemens, should be a good one indeed!!!
June 25, 2004 at 07:13AM View BBCode
If you really look at it, Beltran's production isn't much more than Hidalgo's was last year anyways. He steals more bases, but otherwise, they were pretty comparable.I don't know where all this "great clubhouse guy" stuff comes from. This was the same guy who refused a minor league rehab assignment in his second year in the league. Oh yeah... look it up, I remembered hearing about it and lo and behold, the story is still online for those who care: [url=http://examiner.net/stories/081700/roy_081700033.shtml]prima donna[/url] Now sure, maybe he's changed, but he sat out the rest of that season with that bruise... Maybe his checkered past is forgotten, but it still is checkered. Don't forget he had the gall to pull that one his second year in the league.
At first this bothered me, but think about what they did here... Hidalgo is gone, traded for Weathers. Dotel is gone, traded for Beltran. I don't see Beltran being THAT much more better than Hidalgo to justify the step down to Weathers from Dotel. Remember that Dotel was the guy that allowed the 'stros to trade Wagner in the first place. Jimy Williams (nicknamed captain hook for his penchant for removing pitchers) has a weakened bullpen, last year they had three great relievers and now they're down to one. Lidge might be a good closer but that team needs a strong bullpen because of how the pitchers are managed.
Beltran is an obvious step up in center, but I cheered when Hidalgo was traded last week. He had a deadly arm and covered pretty good ground, and had good power as well. He was a victim of having a huge contract that his performance, while good, didn't justify. The Mets got lucky on that one, Hidalgo was a steal for them... Journeyman reliever for overpaid but talented RF? If you have the money, you do that deal again and again.
If you've ever watched an Astros game, you'd realize that Everett hitting second is where he belongs. He is an good bunter and can often turn a sacrifice situation into a hit... He's pesky and if you're rooting for the other team (which I am when I watch the astros) you hate to see him up with a man on and less than two outs. He does the things it take to win that aren't reflected in the box score. I'd LOVE to see him hit in front of the pitcher... He's infinately more dangerous hitting in front of the meat of the lineup.
But this makes things all the more interesting. By depleting their pitching, are the Astros making a mistake? Can the Astros sign Beltran to a long term deal now that they've acquired him for the stretch? Can Lidge step into the closer's role and take care of business? How will Beltran adjust to quirky Enron/Minute Maid Field's centerfield?
Overall, I think this is a good, gutsy move by the Astos, but one that can definately backfire when you look at the bullpen. It should be a good, long summer... If anyone cares, I'll get to see Betran firsthand next Wednesday at Wrigley... Prior vs. Clemens, should be a good one indeed!!!
RockNJock25
June 25, 2004 at 07:27AM View BBCode
I think it's a good move. They're going for the right now effect and I think it will work wonders. Think about the guys on their team that are near the end of the line. Biggio, Bags, the Rocket. The mainstay of their organization is going down. It's a good move. Go for it the next 1-2 years and then build a core around Berkman.
nextyearcubs
June 25, 2004 at 07:51AM View BBCode
Its not a bad move, just one that bears watching. It will be an interesting summer and if they can sign Beltran long term, that makes it all the more better. It boils down to whether you can take from a strength to bolster a weakness, and hoping that in doing so you don't turn that strength into a weakness. We all have our opinions, but those questions will be answered on the the diamond. You can certainly say they're being proactive in their approach, and if you're an Astros fan you gotta be happy. But I still think that its gonna run down to the wire. I'll say it again, its gonna be a damn good summer for baseball fans!
sycophantman
This makes me think that this was a VERY bad trade for Houston, at least long term. This team was built to compete this year, and after that?
Clemens will probably make this his last year, but maybe not, but even he has to start declining even a little bit at his age. It's hard to say if the injuries he's suffered are to blame, but so far Pettite looks like he's in decline. With most every other big name nearing the end of the line on that team, why would Beltran resign with them? After this season they will probably be an average team at best, and the Astros gave up plenty just to maybe be good enough for the wild card...
June 25, 2004 at 02:24PM View BBCode
I keep going back to Skierdude's point about Beltran, about how he's expressed a desire to play for a contender. He seems to have much the same attitude problem that Steve Francis has, that he's far too good a player to waste his time with a lesser organization.This makes me think that this was a VERY bad trade for Houston, at least long term. This team was built to compete this year, and after that?
Clemens will probably make this his last year, but maybe not, but even he has to start declining even a little bit at his age. It's hard to say if the injuries he's suffered are to blame, but so far Pettite looks like he's in decline. With most every other big name nearing the end of the line on that team, why would Beltran resign with them? After this season they will probably be an average team at best, and the Astros gave up plenty just to maybe be good enough for the wild card...
skierdude44
June 25, 2004 at 02:41PM View BBCode
Well, Bagwell will be gone soon, so will Biggio, and Clemens but then you still have youngsters Everett, Berkman, Ensberg, Beltran, Oswalt, and Miller. From what I've heard in SI Beltran was a very quiet guy in the clubhouse that never caused problems. As far as relief is concerned I dont believe that you necessarily need good relief to win, but you do need a good closer. The Yankees last year had no setup men but they still made it to the World Series. That being said Joe plays a different style of baseball and in the American League you dont have to pinch hit for the pitcher like you do in the NL. If they can keep Beltran I think that they made a good deal because he is a good player with loads of potential to get even better. If they cant keep him then it was a real bone-head deal. Beltran seems to have his heart set on testing the free-agent market so there is a chance he wont be back. For Houston's sake I hope that they talked to him first and saw if there was even a possiblility that he would re-sign with them in the offseason. Its a gutsy move but it is a very interesting one and COULD be a great one but that really depends on how they finish up this year and if he comes back next year.
sycophantman
Randy Johnson for Carlos Guillen and Freddie Garcia? Anyone? How soon we forget!
Johnson was gone after one year and they lost some REAL good talent!
A bad track record if you ask me, but I hope they manage to keep Beltran. But the guy does seem to have a big ego, he's just playing nice with it being a contract year. I can't imagine Houston paying him the amount of money he feels he deserves, which has to be the max possible...
June 25, 2004 at 02:49PM View BBCode
I'm not confident in Houstons' ability to retain players...Randy Johnson for Carlos Guillen and Freddie Garcia? Anyone? How soon we forget!
Johnson was gone after one year and they lost some REAL good talent!
A bad track record if you ask me, but I hope they manage to keep Beltran. But the guy does seem to have a big ego, he's just playing nice with it being a contract year. I can't imagine Houston paying him the amount of money he feels he deserves, which has to be the max possible...
robby
June 25, 2004 at 02:51PM View BBCode
houstons gonna be tough. beltran adds a whole other deminsion to the game. im interested to see how it turns out.
Oak_qx2
June 25, 2004 at 02:58PM View BBCode
Isn't Biggio their CF? Is Beltran gonna play RF or are they gonna move Biggio to RF & play Beltran in CF?
nextyearcubs
Good point about Randy Johnson, syco, I almost forgot that one. That was a horrible trade for them.
June 25, 2004 at 04:28PM View BBCode
I'll tell you, the way Williams manages his pitchers that team absolutely needs an above average bullpen. Playing them the last few years, you knew if you were behind after six or seven innings you could forget about it... Not so anymore. On the other hand, the way Biggio plays CF, getting Beltran will help. Moving Hidalgo cleared up some payroll, I think he made $14mil, so they probably have the money to hang onto him. You also have to remember that this truly is a rent-a-player for HOU, they couldn't have talked contract to Beltran before he was an Astro, they have some pretty strict rules about tampering. They probably have the money to resign him, and just might be able to, but they couldn't have talked contract with Beltran yet. So its a pretty big risk indeed. A team like the Yankees could easily step in and throw more money at him and he'd be gone. You gotta respect a team that's willing to take a gamble like this though. Its something that either makes you look like a genius or a dunce, and only time will tell.Good point about Randy Johnson, syco, I almost forgot that one. That was a horrible trade for them.
skierdude44
As far as Williams is concerned, I dont really remember his years with the Red Sox too well except for his arguements with Carl Everett, but I do know that in the National League bullpens are more important due to the pitcher batting and all the added strategy surrounding that. It is a very interesting move and it makes you scratch your head alittle because Dotel was the reason they traded Wagner and now he is gone. They also waived Linebrink last season and he was gobbled up by the Padres and is having a great season for them so far. They went from four good relievers (Wagner, Dotel, Lidge, and Linebrink) now down to one (Lidge). Still if Beltran is the best 5 tool player in the game and is willing to make a long term commitment to the Astros it is a good trade in my opinion but you have to wonder if that will happen.
June 25, 2004 at 04:42PM View BBCode
Well as his agent Scott Boras puts it, "(Beltran) is a 60 day rental." Boras also said that "given his age and that fact that he plays a premium position he'll be the most coveted player to come on the (free-agent) market since Alex Rodriguez." Obviously that means it is very likely that he will go to whoever gives him the most money. Beltran has also said that he will only sign with a team that will play him in CF, so if the Astros play him in right or left they are really damaging their chances of re-signing him. Him wanting to play center makes him a perfect fit for the Yankees in the offseason due to Bernie's age and knee and shoulder problems and the fact that they may move Lofton towards the deadline to a team in need of a veteran leadoff hitter in exchange for a starter due to Bernie's hitting of late and especially how Bernie is batting out of the leadoff spot. That would also allow them to DH Giambi alot and play Clark at first. Another interesting thing is that Bernie helped Beltran learn how to switch hit so he could be a factor also.As far as Williams is concerned, I dont really remember his years with the Red Sox too well except for his arguements with Carl Everett, but I do know that in the National League bullpens are more important due to the pitcher batting and all the added strategy surrounding that. It is a very interesting move and it makes you scratch your head alittle because Dotel was the reason they traded Wagner and now he is gone. They also waived Linebrink last season and he was gobbled up by the Padres and is having a great season for them so far. They went from four good relievers (Wagner, Dotel, Lidge, and Linebrink) now down to one (Lidge). Still if Beltran is the best 5 tool player in the game and is willing to make a long term commitment to the Astros it is a good trade in my opinion but you have to wonder if that will happen.
skierdude44
June 25, 2004 at 04:54PM View BBCode
Also one person it hurts on the Astros besides Jason Lane is Roger Clemens. He only goes about 5 innings per start and is very good in those 5 innings but now with no bullpen means either he will either have to go farther into games reducing his effectiveness or the bullpen will come in and not be as effective as it once was.
ME
Astros trade Octavio Dotel, John Buck and a million bucks for Carlos Beltran.
Just an absolute steal. Dotel is a very good reliever, but he's a reliever,
not a top-three center fielder with as complete a game as any player in
baseball. The Astros, who have been playing a shadow of Craig Biggio in
center field the past year and a half, actually may get more runs out of this
trade defensively than they gain offensively (Beltran takes Jason Lane's
playing time, with Biggio expected to move to left and Lance Berkman moving
to right).
Moreover, Beltran is a great patch for the Astros' long-standing balance
problems. As a switch-hitter who bats well from the left side, he makes the
team less susceptible to the righty-killers that the Cubs and Cardinals have
in both their rotations and bullpens.
June 27, 2004 at 12:10AM View BBCode
here's what BP says (i dont pay to subcribe so i dont get the full article)Astros trade Octavio Dotel, John Buck and a million bucks for Carlos Beltran.
Just an absolute steal. Dotel is a very good reliever, but he's a reliever,
not a top-three center fielder with as complete a game as any player in
baseball. The Astros, who have been playing a shadow of Craig Biggio in
center field the past year and a half, actually may get more runs out of this
trade defensively than they gain offensively (Beltran takes Jason Lane's
playing time, with Biggio expected to move to left and Lance Berkman moving
to right).
Moreover, Beltran is a great patch for the Astros' long-standing balance
problems. As a switch-hitter who bats well from the left side, he makes the
team less susceptible to the righty-killers that the Cubs and Cardinals have
in both their rotations and bullpens.
Pages: 1