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skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 03:00AM View BBCode

No Im just using that to state the fact that I just really think that it is a bad trade for the White Sox. I agree with you baseball does need a salary cap, I just knew that would get someone going crazy. Anyway its a bad deal for the Sox because they give up a good young catcher, the minor league player of the year, AND another pretty good prospect for a player who may very well re-sign with the Mariners in a few months. The Mariners made out like bandits IMO especially if Garcia comes back like Ponson did last year to the Orioles.

Unclescam777

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June 28, 2004 at 03:04AM View BBCode

Garcia has already said there is a good chance he will resign with the mariners. Renting players is stupid IMO.

skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 03:08AM View BBCode

Geez you guys need to lighten up, I was just playing. My favorite Yankee teams were the surprise teams like the '96 team. This one is great and all but sometimes I leave during the games because I know that they will win and it gets alittle boring.

FuriousGiorge

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June 28, 2004 at 03:35AM View BBCode

Sometimes it's okay to take a gamble in order to win a pennant. The White Sox realize that they have a pretty good chance to win the Central this year, and are attempting to bolster a pretty shaky rotation for the postseason. Maybe the Sox will make the playoffs and lose in the first round: that doesn't automatically make this a bad trade. Sometimes you have to throw your chips on the table if you want to win the pot, and if it doesn't work out at least you took a shot instead of cowering in the corner and folding your hand.

skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 03:43AM View BBCode

This is the AL Central we are talking about. My high school baseball team has a shot at winning the division if they tried. I mean im not saying that getting a rent-a-player is wrong but you have to say to yourself and the other team that this guys is a rental and im not gonna give up a ton for him, especially when there is a good chance that he will re-sign with his old team. The Mariners could end up with the minor league player of the year, a good young catcher, a pretty good infielder prospect, AND Freddy Garcia (THE MAN THEY TRADED TO GET ALL THAT) when it is all said and done. What are the Whitesox left with? Well, maybe an AL Central Title if they are lucky and a first round exit in the playoffs and the same problem that they acquired Garcia to fix in the offseason. For what they gave up for Garcia it just doesnt seem to be worth it to me.

FuriousGiorge

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June 28, 2004 at 04:15AM View BBCode

Or maybe they'll win the World Series for the first time since 1917. You can be timid forever and settle for mediocrity or you can take your chance when it's there and accept that it may cost you down the road.

skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 04:55AM View BBCode

True, but lets look at the odds here. Assuming the playoffs started tomorrow and somehow the WhiteSox made it they would have to beat the Yankees, and then either Texas or Boston (Texas is a possibility but they would first have to beat the Yankees which is very unlikely) and then beat the National league representative (Giants, Cards, Cubs/Reds, or The Marlins) to win the Title. They could beat the Reds, perhaps the Giants, and maybe even the Cards (although if i were to bet on that I would bet on the cards) but they probably wont beat Florida or their rivals from the Southside and to even get to that would be quite a test for them. Im not saying that renting Freddy is bad im just saying that maybe they gave up way too much for a guy that will not resign with them most likely. I mean you have to say ok ill give you Olivio and whoever that minorleague INF they gave up was but the OF who was the minorleague player of the year stays in Chicago, or you give up the minor league OF and INF but keep Olivo. You have to draw the line somewhere. I dont think that a good young catcher, a great prospect and a good prospect are worth three months of Freddy Garcia. If they win the World Series then I will eat my words because then I would have to admit it would have been worth it and the chances of them re-signing Freddy would be higher but I doubt that is likely to happen.

nextyearcubs

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June 28, 2004 at 04:59AM View BBCode

I'm with Furious on this one, but I do think that this can still blow up the the Sox's face. You can't blame them for having the guts to try and win it all this year, whether or not this deal works is another matter but they're going for it all and you have to appreciate that.
Deals like this can make or break GMs, and remember that Williams brought over a few rentals last year who helped, but that team still underacheived. That minor league system could be getting thin after all the deals, but they're a veteran team (and yet not too old) as it is, so they can probably afford to go for it. If that team can't win with what they have now, it might be time to break them apart, or at least shake things up a bit.
But we'll see, at least they're not sitting on their hands and being too passive. That AL central isn't a tough division to win, but at the same time that doesn't mean you just expect to win it and try to get lucky in the playoffs.

Personally, though, I can't hide this, I hope it backfires big time... but only time will tell. They have a pretty scary offensive team but have NO pitching whatsoever, this could help solidify the rotation and take stress off of a weak 'pen.

skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 05:10AM View BBCode

Im fine with taking a gamble to get over the top if you are somewhat close but the White Sox are way off from that. They have some terribly inconsistent hitters: Lee, Konerko, and Crede who could all go in the toilet after the allstar break and they have no pitching and I dont think that adding one pitcher, even though he is really good, is gonna help that rotation that much. Sure Garcia will win most of his starts but what about the other four guys in the rotation. The AL Central was very winnable without Garcia, but the World Series... Well, that seems to be a ways off for the White Sox IMO.

FuriousGiorge

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June 28, 2004 at 05:30AM View BBCode

As far as I'm concerned the most pertinent question to ask when you're looking at a trade like this is, where is this team in the winning cycle? Is this a young team that is likely to be competitive in a couple of years? Is it an older team which is in win-now mode? Is it an old team that's bad and needs to be torn to shreds? The White Sox began their current run of competitiveness in 2000 when they won the Central. They are now 4 years removed from that, with a lot of the same core players, having squandered the last couple of years screwing around. If most teams have about a 5 year window from the time they start to compete to the time that they need to be demolished, the White Sox are at the tail end of that. They are loaded with veterans who are capable of winning now. Jeremy Reed will probably be a very good player, but in 5 years when he's in his prime are the Sox going to be a good team? I would guess probably not. The Sox are clearly in the win-now portion of the winning cycle, and they realized it.

One thing that a lot of fans have a problem distinguishing is decision-making versus results. If a pitcher decides to throw a 1-2 fastball down the middle of the plate to Sammy Sosa, and Sammy pops up the pitch to the catcher, then this was poor decision-making but good results for the pitcher, and not a good sign. In the same way, if Kenny Williams makes a deal for Freddy Garcia and the White Sox fail to get out of the first round, that doesn't necessarily mean the decision was wrong, just that the results were bad. I think Kenny Williams has made a lot of poor decisions as the White Sox GM, but I think this was a good one. If it leads to a pennant he'll be hailed as a genius; if it leads to a first round exit or even missing the playoffs, he'll be crucified, but the decision was the same either way and I imagine he'd probably make it again and again if he had to.

Duff77

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June 28, 2004 at 05:33AM View BBCode

If history is any indication, somehow this will go wrong for the White Sox. It always does. But if the Twins are their only real competition, they'd be remiss if they didn't try. They lead the AL in run scoring (Minnesota is 10th), and Minnesota only has a slightly lower ERA (4.33 vs 4.63). By the numbers, the White Sox should play ahead of the Twinkies now. But when it comes to these two clubs the Twins have always had an edge in team unity and clutch (if you believe in either, which I do). I think that'll be enough for the Twins to keep it close, but in the end, I think the Sox have too much offense.

skierdude44

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June 28, 2004 at 05:43AM View BBCode

Those are some good points but what im seeing is them depleting their farm system for a rental. Not many teams can afford to do that, the Yankees are about the only one that can and even then they are usually the favorites to re-sign the player. In five years Jeremy Reed will most likely be a very good player, Miguel Olivio could be a very good player, the minor league infielder they traded (I dont remember his name) could be a very good player some of their young pitchers like Garland will develop and be pretty good by then. They still have some guys in their mid to late twenties that will still be able to contribute in five years like Crede and Lee. Im all for a gamble if you seriously think that it will pay off but when the risks far outweigh the reward (like they do here IMO) its not worth it. Even with Garcia would you classify the White Sox as an elite team in the AL. I wouldnt. The Yankees, Red Sox, A's, and Angels are all better clubs IMO. Do I think that the White Sox will win the Central after this deal? Yes. I dont know what the expectations from Sox fans are but I think it is a bad trade if Sox fans will only be happy with a World Series Title or appearance. If they are happy with being ousted in the first round of the playoffs then maybe it isnt such a bad move after all but I dont think that it gives you a great shot to win the World Series right now, and if that is what Sox fans want then this will fail miserably most likely. But then again if they arent finished making moves and adding pieces than it could end up being a good trade but as of right now I dont think it is a very good trade.

Duff77

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June 28, 2004 at 08:20AM View BBCode

Yeah, the White Sox should now win the Central and should promptly be slaughtered in the Division Series. But it's hard to tell your fans "no, we're not going to go for it" when you're as close as they are. I mean look at the Marlins last year. Were they the best team in baseball? No. They were a solid club that did the little things right and caught just enough breaks to win it all. Any club is capable of doing that. You get so few chances to make the playoffs (eh hem--I mean if you're NOT a Yankees fan), how can you toss one away when it's staring you in the face? Rent-a-player deals are risky, and WILL ultimately hurt you, but when they can clearly be the difference between making the playoffs and not, how can you throw away the chance?

sycophantman

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June 28, 2004 at 01:24PM View BBCode

You can always spot the organizations that have the worst management by the number of go for broke trades they make. Well run teams never put themselves in the position of now or never.

This truly is the best chance the White Sox will have for a while, they refuse to resign Ordonez for what he's worth, and they aren't savvy enough to get another team to rent him for a season like they foolishly did to get Garcia.

I hope it works out for the Sox, even though I'm a Cubs fan. Just 20 years ago the White Sox were the most popular team in Chicago and the Cubs were the ones barely getting any sellouts ever. Now that the tables have been turned the Sox are desperate to get some attention and are often throwing tantrums over the fact that no one in Chicago really cares about them anymore...