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blakjakshalak
I noticed that defenders were being credited with tackles on incomplete passes, even a pass that was caught out of bounds.
On a positive note, it seemed that the right players were making the tackles. There weren't any CBs stuffing a run up the middle or DLs downfield, etc...
Tackles?
April 22, 2014 at 09:33PM View BBCode
I saw during the Conference Championships between Philly and San Jose that you were crediting tackles. Nice:)I noticed that defenders were being credited with tackles on incomplete passes, even a pass that was caught out of bounds.
On a positive note, it seemed that the right players were making the tackles. There weren't any CBs stuffing a run up the middle or DLs downfield, etc...
Admin
I have had to restructure the whole framework of how plays are processed, but that process is only partially complete. Once I get a little farther into it, the spurious tackles on incompletes will go away.
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
April 22, 2014 at 10:07PM View BBCode
It's experimental right now. The "DEBUG: Crediting John Doe with the tackle" lines won't show up when the feature goes live (which is why I am not bothering to fix that they are appearing on the next play), but some other indication of a tackle being made will likely be added.I have had to restructure the whole framework of how plays are processed, but that process is only partially complete. Once I get a little farther into it, the spurious tackles on incompletes will go away.
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
casperthegm
April 22, 2014 at 10:34PM View BBCode
Sounds promising. People are going to really, really like that addition when it happens.
RichNYC1
NYA 1/10 NYA 34 1st and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a I Formation; the Gnats line up in a 4-3.
Johnny Jones takes the snap, hands off to Jake Vexall.
Jake Vexall runs up the right for a short gain.
14:47 NYA 1/10 NYA 34 DEBUG: Crediting Tim Guthrie with the tackle
2nd and 9 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Martha passes to Tom Scott at the SJ 38.
The ball is caught at the SJ 38 by Tom Scott.
Pass by Will Martha is completed to Tom Scott for a 27 yard gain.
14:07 NYA 2/9 NYA 35 DEBUG: Crediting Mike Bass with the tackle
First down for the New York Trojans!
14:07 NYA 1/10 SJ 39 1st and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Martha passes to Tom Scott at the SJ 32.
The ball is caught at the SJ 32 by Tom Scott.
Pass by Will Martha is completed to Tom Scott for a 6 yard gain.
13:29 NYA 1/10 SJ 39 DEBUG: Crediting Hank Mayes with the tackle
2nd and 4 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Gnats line up in a 4-3.
Johnny Jones takes the snap, pitches to Chuck Heller.
Chuck Heller runs up the left for a 6 yard loss.
12:50 NYA 2/4 SJ 33 DEBUG: Crediting Don Davidson with the tackle
3rd and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
The linebackers are blitzing!
Martha is under heavy pressure.
Will Martha is sacked by Don Davidson for a 10 yard loss.
12:10 NYA 4/20 SJ 49 4th and 20 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Punt Spread Wing; the Gnats line up in a Punt Return.
Melvin Stovall takes the long snap.
April 22, 2014 at 11:16PM View BBCode
The math is right but it doesnt seem to be reading correctlyNYA 1/10 NYA 34 1st and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a I Formation; the Gnats line up in a 4-3.
Johnny Jones takes the snap, hands off to Jake Vexall.
Jake Vexall runs up the right for a short gain.
14:47 NYA 1/10 NYA 34 DEBUG: Crediting Tim Guthrie with the tackle
2nd and 9 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Martha passes to Tom Scott at the SJ 38.
The ball is caught at the SJ 38 by Tom Scott.
Pass by Will Martha is completed to Tom Scott for a 27 yard gain.
14:07 NYA 2/9 NYA 35 DEBUG: Crediting Mike Bass with the tackle
First down for the New York Trojans!
14:07 NYA 1/10 SJ 39 1st and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Martha passes to Tom Scott at the SJ 32.
The ball is caught at the SJ 32 by Tom Scott.
Pass by Will Martha is completed to Tom Scott for a 6 yard gain.
13:29 NYA 1/10 SJ 39 DEBUG: Crediting Hank Mayes with the tackle
2nd and 4 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Gnats line up in a 4-3.
Johnny Jones takes the snap, pitches to Chuck Heller.
Chuck Heller runs up the left for a 6 yard loss.
12:50 NYA 2/4 SJ 33 DEBUG: Crediting Don Davidson with the tackle
3rd and 10 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Gnats line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Will Martha takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
The linebackers are blitzing!
Martha is under heavy pressure.
Will Martha is sacked by Don Davidson for a 10 yard loss.
12:10 NYA 4/20 SJ 49 4th and 20 for the Trojans, they huddle and line up in a Punt Spread Wing; the Gnats line up in a Punt Return.
Melvin Stovall takes the long snap.
Admin
Chris
April 23, 2014 at 05:51AM View BBCode
The Debug line isn't falling in the correct place; it is meant to just give me information on what is going on in the core, I didn't mean to put it up with the Debug lines still in place. I will clear it up soon.Chris
JoeyMac08
April 23, 2014 at 02:45PM View BBCode
The play by play doesn't look to be working correctly.
mr1313
This will be the biggest update to the game for me.
April 23, 2014 at 02:50PM View BBCode
Originally posted by casperthegm
Sounds promising. People are going to really, really like that addition when it happens.
This will be the biggest update to the game for me.
Goldambre
Nashville throws an interception. Philadelphia runs it back. Credit for the tackle goes to the Philly Free Safety.
13:01 0 0 NAS 2/19 NAS 35
2nd and 19 for the Stamp Eaters, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Atom Smashers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Bill Beach takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Beach passes to Reggie Wesbecher at the NAS 40.
The pass intended for Reggie Wesbecher is intercepted by Patrick Dawson at the NAS 40 due to a poor throw.
Dawson breaks a tackle by Reggie Wesbecher.
Patrick Dawson returns the interception to the NAS 32.
12:23 0 0 NAS 2/19 NAS 35
DEBUG: Crediting Joe Sutton with the tackle
1st and 10 for the Atom Smashers, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Stamp Eaters line up in a 4-3.
Tipp Hoskins takes the snap, hands off to Barry Williams.
The corners and linebackers are blitzing!
Barry Williams runs up the left for a 4 yard gain.
You may already be aware of these issues, but I'll keep posting them until you tell us otherwise :)
April 27, 2014 at 02:53AM View BBCode
Here is one that is a problem with tackles (game 54353):Nashville throws an interception. Philadelphia runs it back. Credit for the tackle goes to the Philly Free Safety.
13:01 0 0 NAS 2/19 NAS 35
2nd and 19 for the Stamp Eaters, they huddle and line up in a Shotgun; the Atom Smashers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Bill Beach takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Beach passes to Reggie Wesbecher at the NAS 40.
The pass intended for Reggie Wesbecher is intercepted by Patrick Dawson at the NAS 40 due to a poor throw.
Dawson breaks a tackle by Reggie Wesbecher.
Patrick Dawson returns the interception to the NAS 32.
12:23 0 0 NAS 2/19 NAS 35
DEBUG: Crediting Joe Sutton with the tackle
1st and 10 for the Atom Smashers, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Stamp Eaters line up in a 4-3.
Tipp Hoskins takes the snap, hands off to Barry Williams.
The corners and linebackers are blitzing!
Barry Williams runs up the left for a 4 yard gain.
You may already be aware of these issues, but I'll keep posting them until you tell us otherwise :)
Hodor
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly:
The tackle is being credited to the nearest defender to the ball... but that doesn't mean that he's actually the guy who made the tackle, is it?
I mean, if I use this stat to evaluate my defenders, would it be somewhat accurate? i.e. the best defender gets more tackles or if I throw a weak idiot guy in the middle of some good LBs he'd get credited with the tackles just by being closer to the ball (even if he wouldn't have the strength or the skill to stop the offensive guy)?
April 30, 2014 at 04:58AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly:
The tackle is being credited to the nearest defender to the ball... but that doesn't mean that he's actually the guy who made the tackle, is it?
I mean, if I use this stat to evaluate my defenders, would it be somewhat accurate? i.e. the best defender gets more tackles or if I throw a weak idiot guy in the middle of some good LBs he'd get credited with the tackles just by being closer to the ball (even if he wouldn't have the strength or the skill to stop the offensive guy)?
Closer
Yeah, I think that sums it up. And if it is so, the stats over time should confirm it, either way I would think.
April 30, 2014 at 11:48AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hodor
Originally posted by Admin
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly:
The tackle is being credited to the nearest defender to the ball... but that doesn't mean that he's actually the guy who made the tackle, is it?
I mean, if I use this stat to evaluate my defenders, would it be somewhat accurate? i.e. the best defender gets more tackles or if I throw a weak idiot guy in the middle of some good LBs he'd get credited with the tackles just by being closer to the ball (even if he wouldn't have the strength or the skill to stop the offensive guy)?
Yeah, I think that sums it up. And if it is so, the stats over time should confirm it, either way I would think.
Hodor
the thing is that if that's the case (the tackle goes to the closer defender instead of the most likely player to made the tackle -whatever that means-) then that stat will be not only rather useless, but confusing.
A player with -let's say- A+ agility and C- Tackle, C- Strength, C- Run Cover could get credited with a lot of tackles for being there, which could lead to people to believe that he's an awesome defender, when probably the simulation is counting on the player with B- agility but A in everything else to actually make the tackle.
Right now I'm not sure which one of my linebackers is better than other (is it the guy with high run cover and mediocre tackling? or is it the guy with great tackling but mediocre run cover?), this stat should help me a lot to decide which kind of players I want for my team, but if it won't tell me that, just who was closer to the action, then it is indeed not only rather useless, but confusing.
Edit: sorry if I sound too "negative"... I'm excited about this, it's just that I'm worried that it won't be what I was actually expecting it to be.
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by Hodor]
April 30, 2014 at 12:36PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Closer
Originally posted by Hodor
Originally posted by Admin
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly:
The tackle is being credited to the nearest defender to the ball... but that doesn't mean that he's actually the guy who made the tackle, is it?
I mean, if I use this stat to evaluate my defenders, would it be somewhat accurate? i.e. the best defender gets more tackles or if I throw a weak idiot guy in the middle of some good LBs he'd get credited with the tackles just by being closer to the ball (even if he wouldn't have the strength or the skill to stop the offensive guy)?
Yeah, I think that sums it up. And if it is so, the stats over time should confirm it, either way I would think.
the thing is that if that's the case (the tackle goes to the closer defender instead of the most likely player to made the tackle -whatever that means-) then that stat will be not only rather useless, but confusing.
A player with -let's say- A+ agility and C- Tackle, C- Strength, C- Run Cover could get credited with a lot of tackles for being there, which could lead to people to believe that he's an awesome defender, when probably the simulation is counting on the player with B- agility but A in everything else to actually make the tackle.
Right now I'm not sure which one of my linebackers is better than other (is it the guy with high run cover and mediocre tackling? or is it the guy with great tackling but mediocre run cover?), this stat should help me a lot to decide which kind of players I want for my team, but if it won't tell me that, just who was closer to the action, then it is indeed not only rather useless, but confusing.
Edit: sorry if I sound too "negative"... I'm excited about this, it's just that I'm worried that it won't be what I was actually expecting it to be.
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by Hodor]
Closer
It also could be that the sim just uses totals of offense and defense and comes up with a winner and then calculates the probability of yards on the runner and then choses the player on defense most likely close for the tackle.
It seems to me that for a program to calculate each player individually how it reacts with another player and how all these interactions create a play would be harder than running the Strategic Air Command. Things have to be generalized in my way of thinking.
But I'm not a programmer~
April 30, 2014 at 12:47PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hodor
Originally posted by Closer
Originally posted by Hodor
Originally posted by Admin
(What it is actually showing you is the nearest defender to the ball at the time the play ended, who will be the tackler when there actually is a tackle.)
Chris
I'm not sure if I'm understanding this correctly:
The tackle is being credited to the nearest defender to the ball... but that doesn't mean that he's actually the guy who made the tackle, is it?
I mean, if I use this stat to evaluate my defenders, would it be somewhat accurate? i.e. the best defender gets more tackles or if I throw a weak idiot guy in the middle of some good LBs he'd get credited with the tackles just by being closer to the ball (even if he wouldn't have the strength or the skill to stop the offensive guy)?
Yeah, I think that sums it up. And if it is so, the stats over time should confirm it, either way I would think.
the thing is that if that's the case (the tackle goes to the closer defender instead of the most likely player to made the tackle -whatever that means-) then that stat will be not only rather useless, but confusing.
A player with -let's say- A+ agility and C- Tackle, C- Strength, C- Run Cover could get credited with a lot of tackles for being there, which could lead to people to believe that he's an awesome defender, when probably the simulation is counting on the player with B- agility but A in everything else to actually make the tackle.
Right now I'm not sure which one of my linebackers is better than other (is it the guy with high run cover and mediocre tackling? or is it the guy with great tackling but mediocre run cover?), this stat should help me a lot to decide which kind of players I want for my team, but if it won't tell me that, just who was closer to the action, then it is indeed not only rather useless, but confusing.
Edit: sorry if I sound too "negative"... I'm excited about this, it's just that I'm worried that it won't be what I was actually expecting it to be.
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by Hodor]
It also could be that the sim just uses totals of offense and defense and comes up with a winner and then calculates the probability of yards on the runner and then choses the player on defense most likely close for the tackle.
It seems to me that for a program to calculate each player individually how it reacts with another player and how all these interactions create a play would be harder than running the Strategic Air Command. Things have to be generalized in my way of thinking.
But I'm not a programmer~
Hodor
Oh, I agree on all of that, it's just that it seems to be that it could be a more effective way to do it:
1. AFE knows how much each player "contributes" to the defense overall rating (based on actual in game calculations).
2. AFE knows which players are the ones Closer to the action.
3. AFE could make a "weighed lottery", giving more tickets to the players that contribute the most that are Closer to the action.
4. Just add a bit of random and select him.
This way, it takes into account the realistically Closer players AND the most likely player to made the tackle based on skill.
Notes:
a) probably it's already something like this, and is just Chris' comment what I found confusing, hence why I asked for a bit of clarification.
b) I think you just want that the Closer player gets credited with all the tackles. :P
April 30, 2014 at 01:15PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Closer
It also could be that the sim just uses totals of offense and defense and comes up with a winner and then calculates the probability of yards on the runner and then choses the player on defense most likely close for the tackle.
It seems to me that for a program to calculate each player individually how it reacts with another player and how all these interactions create a play would be harder than running the Strategic Air Command. Things have to be generalized in my way of thinking.
But I'm not a programmer~
Oh, I agree on all of that, it's just that it seems to be that it could be a more effective way to do it:
1. AFE knows how much each player "contributes" to the defense overall rating (based on actual in game calculations).
2. AFE knows which players are the ones Closer to the action.
3. AFE could make a "weighed lottery", giving more tickets to the players that contribute the most that are Closer to the action.
4. Just add a bit of random and select him.
This way, it takes into account the realistically Closer players AND the most likely player to made the tackle based on skill.
Notes:
a) probably it's already something like this, and is just Chris' comment what I found confusing, hence why I asked for a bit of clarification.
b) I think you just want that the Closer player gets credited with all the tackles. :P
Hodor
...which would help us to know which players are better than others (probably depending on situations/formations/rivals) and would help us to take better decisions as to which players/skill sets we should be looking for: a useful stat.
April 30, 2014 at 01:20PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hodor
This way, it takes into account the realistically Closer players AND the most likely player to made the tackle based on skill.
...which would help us to know which players are better than others (probably depending on situations/formations/rivals) and would help us to take better decisions as to which players/skill sets we should be looking for: a useful stat.
dirtdevil
April 30, 2014 at 02:37PM View BBCode
maybe I'm oversimplifying things, but is there ever going to be a situation in real life when the closest defender to a downed ballcarrier is not the player who tackled him?
Hodor
In the game? That's my question.
e"
Chris wording ("nearest defender to the ball") makes me think of defenders not even "touching" the ball carrier, which makes me think of Closer's AFE theory, which would mean crediting tackles to players that don't "deserve" it, which would mean it would be rather useless.
IF that's how AFE works, that's why I'd like some clarification about it
April 30, 2014 at 03:32PM View BBCode
In real life? sure.In the game? That's my question.
e"
Chris wording ("nearest defender to the ball") makes me think of defenders not even "touching" the ball carrier, which makes me think of Closer's AFE theory, which would mean crediting tackles to players that don't "deserve" it, which would mean it would be rather useless.
IF that's how AFE works, that's why I'd like some clarification about it
Hodor
I think that there has to be a way for AFE to know which player was the most influential in stopping the ball carrier.
I'd like that that guy is credited (more often than not) with the tackle.
I don't think that AFE works in a way that that guy (the most influential in stoppimg the ball carrier) is the nearest guy to the ball.
April 30, 2014 at 03:45PM View BBCode
Different words:I think that there has to be a way for AFE to know which player was the most influential in stopping the ball carrier.
I'd like that that guy is credited (more often than not) with the tackle.
I don't think that AFE works in a way that that guy (the most influential in stoppimg the ball carrier) is the nearest guy to the ball.
dirtdevil
(maybe it's because I'm more of a fantasy reader than scifi. I don't need to know how the hyperdrive works, I only care that it does. whether it's a fusion drive, a wormhole jump, a folding of space, it doesn't matter to me. just let me know when we get there.)
April 30, 2014 at 03:56PM View BBCode
fair enough. I guess for me it's maybe a semantical interpretation. if someone is 'tackled' and a defender is 'nearest' then he has to be the guy who tackled him. otherwise the ballcarrier would still be running.(maybe it's because I'm more of a fantasy reader than scifi. I don't need to know how the hyperdrive works, I only care that it does. whether it's a fusion drive, a wormhole jump, a folding of space, it doesn't matter to me. just let me know when we get there.)
Hodor
(From a different thread)
How truthful/helpful will be this stat?
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by Hodor]
April 30, 2014 at 04:14PM View BBCode
I don't mind how AFE works... this is what prompted me to question all this:(From a different thread)
Casperthegm
I like good, agile LB's for blitzing but other than that I have a hard time judging their effectiveness. When tackles are added it will be a big help. And they are coming.
How truthful/helpful will be this stat?
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by Hodor]
casperthegm
[Edited on 4-30-2014 by casperthegm]
April 30, 2014 at 04:16PM View BBCode
Good question. Assuming we end up having a Hall of Fame in the pay leagues having tackles to better judge defensive players would be a great benefit...in theory. On a practical, game management level it could be as well. It just depends on how accurate the tackles that are registered in-game reflect the talent of the defensive player making the play.[Edited on 4-30-2014 by casperthegm]
blakjakshalak
Until then, it does make for some interesting plays, like this one:
BPFL, week14
Philly at Hamilton:
3rd and 10 for the Hamiltonians, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Atom Smashers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Ray Sinnott takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Sinnott passes to Mike Triplett at the PHI 13.
The pass intended for Mike Triplett is intercepted by Joe Sutton at the PHI 13.
Sutton breaks a tackle by Mike Triplett.
Joe Sutton returns the interception to the PHI 18.
DEBUG: Crediting Joe Sutton with the tackle
So Sutton makes the pick, returns it 18 yrds and then promptly tackles himself.
(We've had him on extra agility drills this week):rolleyes:
April 30, 2014 at 04:26PM View BBCode
All this may be a bit premature. All Chris has said so far is that he is debugging (just collecting data). My guess is he will use this data to work up a calculation that gives plausible results based on some factors like Hodor mentioned. Hopefully it will meaningful in evaluating how well a defender is playing because right now we don't have anything. We're not going to get actual player interaction until the full version of the game.Until then, it does make for some interesting plays, like this one:
BPFL, week14
Philly at Hamilton:
3rd and 10 for the Hamiltonians, they huddle and line up in a Pro Set; the Atom Smashers line up in a 4-2-5 Nickel.
Ray Sinnott takes the snap and drops back into the pocket.
Sinnott passes to Mike Triplett at the PHI 13.
The pass intended for Mike Triplett is intercepted by Joe Sutton at the PHI 13.
Sutton breaks a tackle by Mike Triplett.
Joe Sutton returns the interception to the PHI 18.
DEBUG: Crediting Joe Sutton with the tackle
So Sutton makes the pick, returns it 18 yrds and then promptly tackles himself.
(We've had him on extra agility drills this week):rolleyes:
blakjakshalak
April 30, 2014 at 04:41PM View BBCode
Actually, what would be very helpful would be team defensive stats like yrds passing/rushing against, avg yrds per carry/catch against, etc... At least I'd have a clear picture of how my defense is doing as a whole. And it would be very helpful in sizing up the opposition to formulate a gameplan.
casperthegm
April 30, 2014 at 04:42PM View BBCode
I wish we could see an animation of how he tackled himself. That would be entertaining :P
casperthegm
That would be a big help. If the stats can be broken down for offense I would think it can be for defense as well, though it might start to become an issue for storage (not that I know a thing about the technical side of things).
April 30, 2014 at 04:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by blakjakshalak
Actually, what would be very helpful would be team defensive stats like yrds passing/rushing against, avg yrds per carry/catch against, etc... At least I'd have a clear picture of how my defense is doing as a whole. And it would be very helpful in sizing up the opposition to formulate a gameplan.
That would be a big help. If the stats can be broken down for offense I would think it can be for defense as well, though it might start to become an issue for storage (not that I know a thing about the technical side of things).
dirtdevil
some of that is on the future scoreboard page already. i agree it would be nice to have it in a traditional stat format, and in more detail.
April 30, 2014 at 05:39PM View BBCode
Originally posted by blakjakshalak
Actually, what would be very helpful would be team defensive stats like yrds passing/rushing against, avg yrds per carry/catch against, etc... At least I'd have a clear picture of how my defense is doing as a whole. And it would be very helpful in sizing up the opposition to formulate a gameplan.
some of that is on the future scoreboard page already. i agree it would be nice to have it in a traditional stat format, and in more detail.
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