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paulcaraccio
Allow me to save some of you some time and say that this should probably not be a priority. But in the interests of making our game more realistic, this certainly needs to happen at some point.
some dudes should strike out less
June 06, 2011 at 09:03PM View formatted
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even guys with A+ contact strike out over 100 times, that's silly. I believe the overall strikeout numbers are alleged to be on par with MLB, but there should be guys who strike out less than every 6th or 7th time up. Over a full season, the difference between C+ contact and A+ contact appears to be only about 30 strikeouts.
Allow me to save some of you some time and say that this should probably not be a priority. But in the interests of making our game more realistic, this certainly needs to happen at some point.
tworoosters
Over the past five seasons in MLB last year, with 30 teams, an average of 85 players struck out 100 or more times which would equate to 45 players per year in SIM.
Tracking the past 10 years in each of my three private leagues I find that, on the average, 43.4 players per year in SIM strikeout 100 times per year .
What is truly missing are walks, where in MLB 7.6 players per year walk 100 times, which equates to 4 per year in SIM. In my three SIM leagues through 168 seasons a total of 14 batters have walked 100 or more times in a season.
June 06, 2011 at 09:41PM View BBCode
I'm not sure I agree, there is a perception that 100 Ks is a lot and so few players should do it.Over the past five seasons in MLB last year, with 30 teams, an average of 85 players struck out 100 or more times which would equate to 45 players per year in SIM.
Tracking the past 10 years in each of my three private leagues I find that, on the average, 43.4 players per year in SIM strikeout 100 times per year .
What is truly missing are walks, where in MLB 7.6 players per year walk 100 times, which equates to 4 per year in SIM. In my three SIM leagues through 168 seasons a total of 14 batters have walked 100 or more times in a season.
paulcaraccio
i think there are a lot of players in SimD who don't strike out 100 times because of health. And I just discovered this new way to relate it.
I checked one league I'm in, the last full season, and there was not a single player who had more than 570 AB and less than 92 strikeouts. Last year in MLB, there were 11 such players, which you can view on this awesome report [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?type=b&id=#gotresults&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=0&min_year_season=2010&max_year_season=2010&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isActive=either&isHOF=either&isAllstar=either&bats=any&throws=any&exactness=anypos&games_min_max=min&games_prop=50&games_tot=&pos_1=1&pos_2=1&pos_3=1&pos_4=1&pos_5=1&pos_6=1&pos_7=1&pos_8=1&pos_9=1&pos_10=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&orderby=HR&c1criteria=AB&c1gtlt=gt&c1val=570&c2criteria=SO&c2gtlt=lt&c2val=92&c3criteria=&c3gtlt=eq&c3val=0&c4criteria=&c4gtlt=eq&c4val=0&c5criteria=&c5gtlt=eq&c5val=1.0&c6criteria=&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=&ajax=1&submitter=1]here[/url], thanks to baseball-reference.com
June 06, 2011 at 11:38PM View BBCode
agree with you on the walks, i think the most-needed thing for SimD is to add a third attribute to hitters (Discipline) and to pitchers (Stuff). Contact should not influence walks as much as it does.i think there are a lot of players in SimD who don't strike out 100 times because of health. And I just discovered this new way to relate it.
I checked one league I'm in, the last full season, and there was not a single player who had more than 570 AB and less than 92 strikeouts. Last year in MLB, there were 11 such players, which you can view on this awesome report [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/play-index/season_finder.cgi?type=b&id=#gotresults&as=result_batter&offset=0&sum=0&min_year_season=2010&max_year_season=2010&min_season=1&max_season=-1&min_age=0&max_age=99&lg_ID=lgAny&lgAL_team=tmAny&lgNL_team=tmAny&lgFL_team=tmAny&lgAA_team=tmAny&lgPL_team=tmAny&lgUA_team=tmAny&lgNA_team=tmAny&isActive=either&isHOF=either&isAllstar=either&bats=any&throws=any&exactness=anypos&games_min_max=min&games_prop=50&games_tot=&pos_1=1&pos_2=1&pos_3=1&pos_4=1&pos_5=1&pos_6=1&pos_7=1&pos_8=1&pos_9=1&pos_10=1&qualifiersSeason=nomin&minpasValS=502&mingamesValS=100&qualifiersCareer=nomin&minpasValC=3000&mingamesValC=1000&orderby=HR&c1criteria=AB&c1gtlt=gt&c1val=570&c2criteria=SO&c2gtlt=lt&c2val=92&c3criteria=&c3gtlt=eq&c3val=0&c4criteria=&c4gtlt=eq&c4val=0&c5criteria=&c5gtlt=eq&c5val=1.0&c6criteria=&location=pob&locationMatch=is&pob=&pod=&pcanada=&pusa=&ajax=1&submitter=1]here[/url], thanks to baseball-reference.com
paulcaraccio
June 06, 2011 at 11:40PM View BBCode
actually there may have been 20 such players, but I am not a paying member of their website?
Hamilton2
Well? Are you or aren't you? I can't answer this question, Paul. :)
June 07, 2011 at 01:33AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
actually there may have been 20 such players, but I am not a paying member of their website?
Well? Are you or aren't you? I can't answer this question, Paul. :)
paulcaraccio
June 07, 2011 at 03:54AM View BBCode
lol, i am not. i was confused if that was preventing me from seeing the top 10 names, but for some reason i trusted my initial reaction that they started at the #11 spot on the list.
WillyD
June 09, 2011 at 08:24PM View BBCode
The problem is that power determiones strikeouts as well as contact. I think more emphasis should be placed on the contact. Just because a player has power doesn't mean he strikeouts significantly more. I have seen too many A+/B+ guys strikeout over 100 times. Even A+/C+ guys strikeout fairly often. There needs to be some players who can strikeout around 45 times per year while walking 90 to 100 times. Currently this player cannot exist in SimD.
tworoosters
Currently this type of player doesn't exist in MLB either, with the exception of Albert Pujols there is not an active major leaguer with as many as 80 walks and less than 60 Ks in a season and most are much higher in their Ks.
Outside of Pujols the highest walk total for a hitter who had more BBs than Ks last year was Joe Mauer with 65/53 .
I think there is a perception that there are lots of "high walk/low stirkeout" contact hitters out there but in fact there just aren't. The high walk guys are the power hitters, for the most part, and they whiff a lot as well.
Pujols is an aberration, just as Brian Giles before him and of course that Bonds guy, so the fact that we don't see these guys in the SIM doesn't bother me.
June 09, 2011 at 09:12PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
There needs to be some players who can strikeout around 45 times per year while walking 90 to 100 times. Currently this player cannot exist in SimD.
Currently this type of player doesn't exist in MLB either, with the exception of Albert Pujols there is not an active major leaguer with as many as 80 walks and less than 60 Ks in a season and most are much higher in their Ks.
Outside of Pujols the highest walk total for a hitter who had more BBs than Ks last year was Joe Mauer with 65/53 .
I think there is a perception that there are lots of "high walk/low stirkeout" contact hitters out there but in fact there just aren't. The high walk guys are the power hitters, for the most part, and they whiff a lot as well.
Pujols is an aberration, just as Brian Giles before him and of course that Bonds guy, so the fact that we don't see these guys in the SIM doesn't bother me.
tm4559
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4878058
108 walks. 68 K.
June 09, 2011 at 09:26PM View BBCode
here you go, the GNL single season record holder for bb.http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=4878058
108 walks. 68 K.
tm4559
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=2307949
is tied for third place on the single season list with 101. and it struck out 90 times. you know why, right?
June 09, 2011 at 09:29PM View BBCode
now kenny busch herehttp://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=2307949
is tied for third place on the single season list with 101. and it struck out 90 times. you know why, right?
WillyD
June 09, 2011 at 09:59PM View BBCode
Pedroia recently had a 74/45 BB/K ratio. Besides we don't have to the mimic current MLB era. There have been players in many other generations that have had high walk to low strikeout ratios. I'm not saying they should be common in SimD just more comon than they are now.
Hamilton2
The way I see it, there are two possible solutions:
A) Change the current K/BB ratios somehow by adjusting the overall numbers, perhaps adding a bonus for guys with maxed contact or something like that. The problem with this idea is that any change pursued down this avenue will inevitibly lead to a disproportionate number of these type of hitters. There aren't very many of them in the history of MLB, as a percentage of those who have played, so we have to be careful about creating too many of them in sim.
B) Add a 3rd attribute for hitters (eye, perhaps) and possibly even a 3rd attribute for pitchers (movement, perhaps) and generate a wider variety of player types. This change is supported in principle by the site Admin but needs a ton of research, analysis and study before it can be implemented. You have to have a way to maintain the current status quo while adding the new layers of complexity as well as maintaining the statistical integrity of the game engine while adding variables.
Quite frankly, A seems like a terrible idea to me and B will either happen or not regardless of the outcome of this thread.
So, what's the point of this topic?
June 09, 2011 at 10:13PM View BBCode
So, what's the proposed solution? Do we have an actual enhancement suggested yet in the thread or do we just have a disagreement about whether a problem exists?The way I see it, there are two possible solutions:
A) Change the current K/BB ratios somehow by adjusting the overall numbers, perhaps adding a bonus for guys with maxed contact or something like that. The problem with this idea is that any change pursued down this avenue will inevitibly lead to a disproportionate number of these type of hitters. There aren't very many of them in the history of MLB, as a percentage of those who have played, so we have to be careful about creating too many of them in sim.
B) Add a 3rd attribute for hitters (eye, perhaps) and possibly even a 3rd attribute for pitchers (movement, perhaps) and generate a wider variety of player types. This change is supported in principle by the site Admin but needs a ton of research, analysis and study before it can be implemented. You have to have a way to maintain the current status quo while adding the new layers of complexity as well as maintaining the statistical integrity of the game engine while adding variables.
Quite frankly, A seems like a terrible idea to me and B will either happen or not regardless of the outcome of this thread.
So, what's the point of this topic?
paulcaraccio
tm that first dude is amazing, almost had more walks than K's for his career, are there any guys like that in SD history?
My original point was that some dudes should strike out less; it's not an important change, and I didn't mean for it to be viewed as a drastic one, just a slightly altering one. A+ contact guys shouldn't strike out more than once every 8 AB or so, I feel, and now they strike out like once every 5-6. I would hope it could be done without creating the extremist types, like Joe DiMaggio, i think he struck out like 13 times one year. We don't need that. I look at stats too much, just thought that seeing my whole lineup with 100 K's didn't look real.
June 10, 2011 at 12:30AM View BBCode
The point of this topic as with most others on the Enhancements board is to discuss ideas that could make the game better. Not every idea is a good one, and almost all of them will never be implemented. I think we all know that. We're just talking here, it's great that you're so goal-oriented but there does not have to be a triumphant conclusion to every thread on the message board. If you can't see a point to a discussion, you might as well not get involved in it.tm that first dude is amazing, almost had more walks than K's for his career, are there any guys like that in SD history?
My original point was that some dudes should strike out less; it's not an important change, and I didn't mean for it to be viewed as a drastic one, just a slightly altering one. A+ contact guys shouldn't strike out more than once every 8 AB or so, I feel, and now they strike out like once every 5-6. I would hope it could be done without creating the extremist types, like Joe DiMaggio, i think he struck out like 13 times one year. We don't need that. I look at stats too much, just thought that seeing my whole lineup with 100 K's didn't look real.
Hamilton2
Maybe there needs to be a bonus to A+/A+ guys. Those are few and far far between in most leagues and might represent, proportionally, and appropriate number of similar players in MLB. Willy and Tim can post ad infinitum examples of anecdotal evidence but it isn't getting anyone to change their mind and it isn't furthering the discussion. That was my point.
I'm not saying the discussion isn't worth having, I was just trying to steer things towards being a little more productive.
June 10, 2011 at 12:48AM View BBCode
Paul, you say "some guys" should strike out less. I'm asking "which some?" And "how would you accomplish the goal?" If you think that ALL A+ contact hitters need to have fewer strikeouts, then the counter is very simple: the entire balance of the sim will be drastically altered by doing that and you will create too many players who fit the striking out fewer mold.Maybe there needs to be a bonus to A+/A+ guys. Those are few and far far between in most leagues and might represent, proportionally, and appropriate number of similar players in MLB. Willy and Tim can post ad infinitum examples of anecdotal evidence but it isn't getting anyone to change their mind and it isn't furthering the discussion. That was my point.
I'm not saying the discussion isn't worth having, I was just trying to steer things towards being a little more productive.
jchoopz
June 10, 2011 at 12:26PM View BBCode
I think a main reason for the problem with the walks is that pitchers don't pitch around players in simD. Without looking it up, I feel pretty confident in saying that in MLB those who walk the most usually do so because they are the best hitters and pitchers are often trying to avoid even throwing them a strike.
tm4559
we see them occasionally. here is another one
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3666550
the grades have to be just right. because the strikeouts are tied to the power (they do not all come from that, but there will be more when the power is big) a hitter like that, with the big contact and enough power to hit for a big average can end on numbers like that.
a really super power hitter that doesn't have the contact to draw a lot of walks will have it really big on the k
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3800087
that thing is second all time in ops, the best hitter of the modern era (perhaps any era) in that league.
a big power hitter that also has the big contact be more like this
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=6652703
the stick was massively awesome. it was an A+/A+ hitter, albeit with a bad health rating.
this one is second all time in obp, was lower on the power, and even had less strikeouts than walks
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3972173
a really pure power hitter, with lower contact and a lower average (the speed was not blinding either, i believe it was a- or something, during this era the past skills were not accurate) will have a bunch of home runs (first all time) and a bunch of strikeouts, and not so many walks
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3494593
June 10, 2011 at 01:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
tm that first dude is amazing, almost had more walks than K's for his career, are there any guys like that in SD history?
we see them occasionally. here is another one
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3666550
the grades have to be just right. because the strikeouts are tied to the power (they do not all come from that, but there will be more when the power is big) a hitter like that, with the big contact and enough power to hit for a big average can end on numbers like that.
a really super power hitter that doesn't have the contact to draw a lot of walks will have it really big on the k
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3800087
that thing is second all time in ops, the best hitter of the modern era (perhaps any era) in that league.
a big power hitter that also has the big contact be more like this
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=6652703
the stick was massively awesome. it was an A+/A+ hitter, albeit with a bad health rating.
this one is second all time in obp, was lower on the power, and even had less strikeouts than walks
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3972173
a really pure power hitter, with lower contact and a lower average (the speed was not blinding either, i believe it was a- or something, during this era the past skills were not accurate) will have a bunch of home runs (first all time) and a bunch of strikeouts, and not so many walks
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?id=3494593
tm4559
http://topindustrynews.com/player.jsp?id=6474972&statsorimps=stats
June 10, 2011 at 01:12PM View BBCode
this one might be the best example (at the very least, one of the better examples, there are probably some better) of the flat out b/100 with A speed (at the peak) power hitter, big homers, big K, not many walks, big k to bb ratiohttp://topindustrynews.com/player.jsp?id=6474972&statsorimps=stats
tm4559
the anecdotes were more along the line of expanding on rooster's point. there aren't so many of these things in real baseball. there aren't many of them in the simulation. but there are some, or, some seasons like that. that was what the anecdotes were about.
June 10, 2011 at 01:17PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hamilton2
Willy and Tim can post ad infinitum examples of anecdotal evidence but it isn't getting anyone to change their mind and it isn't furthering the discussion. That was my point.
the anecdotes were more along the line of expanding on rooster's point. there aren't so many of these things in real baseball. there aren't many of them in the simulation. but there are some, or, some seasons like that. that was what the anecdotes were about.
tm4559
June 10, 2011 at 01:18PM View BBCode
(i mean, there is probably nobody in the simulation with almost the same number of K and home runs. but there was only one joe dimaggio in real baseball.)
WillyD
Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Al Simmons, Bill Terry. Back in the day 100 K's was like 180 or 200 today. Many players struckout less than 80 times a year and there were a lot of guys that were under 50. Even back in the 80's there were some. Strikeouts have gone up and up over the years. I think we will see this trend reverse slightly as the steroid free era continues.
June 10, 2011 at 02:56PM View BBCode
Actually there were others like him, at least somewaht close to his K/HR ratios. Nobody hit 40 HR's and had less than 20 strikeouts besides him however.Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Al Simmons, Bill Terry. Back in the day 100 K's was like 180 or 200 today. Many players struckout less than 80 times a year and there were a lot of guys that were under 50. Even back in the 80's there were some. Strikeouts have gone up and up over the years. I think we will see this trend reverse slightly as the steroid free era continues.
tm4559
(are you one of those guys that still believe the steroids didn't do as much for the pitchers as they did for the hitters?)
June 10, 2011 at 03:22PM View BBCode
they go down if they make the strike smaller. which isn't like to happen, since its almost invisible now.(are you one of those guys that still believe the steroids didn't do as much for the pitchers as they did for the hitters?)
tworoosters
I guess it depends on how you define "like him" and "somewhat close".
DiMaggio K/HR ratio - 1.02/1 361 homers, 7 years when HR exceeded Ks only 6 when Ks exceeded HR .
Williams: 1.36/1 521 homers, 4 years when HR exceeded Ks
Musial: 1.47/1 475 homers, 1 year when HR exceeded Ks
Gehringer: 2.02/1 184 HR, 2 years when HR exceeded Ks, and one when they were the same
Cochrane: 1.82/1 119 home runs, 2 years when HR exceeded Ks
Simmons: 2.4/1 307 HR, one season when HR exceeded Ks
Terry: 3.49/1 154 home runs, one year when HR exceeded Ks
June 10, 2011 at 05:38PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
Actually there were others like him (DiMaggio), at least somewhat close to his K/HR ratios. Nobody hit 40 HR's and had less than 20 strikeouts besides him however.
Ted Williams, Stan Musial, Charlie Gehringer, Mickey Cochrane, Al Simmons, Bill Terry.
I guess it depends on how you define "like him" and "somewhat close".
DiMaggio K/HR ratio - 1.02/1 361 homers, 7 years when HR exceeded Ks only 6 when Ks exceeded HR .
Williams: 1.36/1 521 homers, 4 years when HR exceeded Ks
Musial: 1.47/1 475 homers, 1 year when HR exceeded Ks
Gehringer: 2.02/1 184 HR, 2 years when HR exceeded Ks, and one when they were the same
Cochrane: 1.82/1 119 home runs, 2 years when HR exceeded Ks
Simmons: 2.4/1 307 HR, one season when HR exceeded Ks
Terry: 3.49/1 154 home runs, one year when HR exceeded Ks
tm4559
(maybe no different. who knows? new yankee stadium like old yankee stadium though. left handed hitters pardise. the red sox left handers sure like it. tee hee.)
June 10, 2011 at 07:14PM View BBCode
think what it might have been with a reasonable power alley to shoot at it left center?(maybe no different. who knows? new yankee stadium like old yankee stadium though. left handed hitters pardise. the red sox left handers sure like it. tee hee.)
WillyD
I'm open minded about it, but with a few exceptions pitcher performance suffered while hitters flourished. There are many other factors such as smaller parks, expansion, the emphasis on power hitters, etc. The only thing that improved for pitchers was strikeouts. Was it sterods or the bullpen specialization or the fact everyone was trying to jack every pitch they saw out of the yard?
June 10, 2011 at 07:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
they go down if they make the strike smaller. which isn't like to happen, since its almost invisible now.
(are you one of those guys that still believe the steroids didn't do as much for the pitchers as they did for the hitters?)
I'm open minded about it, but with a few exceptions pitcher performance suffered while hitters flourished. There are many other factors such as smaller parks, expansion, the emphasis on power hitters, etc. The only thing that improved for pitchers was strikeouts. Was it sterods or the bullpen specialization or the fact everyone was trying to jack every pitch they saw out of the yard?
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