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whiskybear
Serves him right for being an enormous douche, though I do feel terrible for his kids. Anyway, if he misses substantial time, the pundits might have to adjust those N.L. West predictions.
Bonds to sit out part (or all) of the season?
March 22, 2005 at 10:05PM View BBCode
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2018994Serves him right for being an enormous douche, though I do feel terrible for his kids. Anyway, if he misses substantial time, the pundits might have to adjust those N.L. West predictions.
FuriousGiorge
Padres
Dodgers
D-Backs
Rockies
Portland Beavers
Stanford Cardinal
Jefferson High School (Cupertino, CA)
Starbucks #1520 (Sacramento) Softball Team
Al's Hardware (12-13, AAA division)
Mrs. Thompson's 5th grade class recess baseball team
Giants
Joe Ellison's 6 year old twins, neighborhood tee-ball legends
Those last two are pretty close, I figure the Giants have the edge because they will be able to play games scheduled at 4:00 instead of having to take naptime.
March 22, 2005 at 10:15PM View BBCode
New NL West predicted standings:Padres
Dodgers
D-Backs
Rockies
Portland Beavers
Stanford Cardinal
Jefferson High School (Cupertino, CA)
Starbucks #1520 (Sacramento) Softball Team
Al's Hardware (12-13, AAA division)
Mrs. Thompson's 5th grade class recess baseball team
Giants
Joe Ellison's 6 year old twins, neighborhood tee-ball legends
Those last two are pretty close, I figure the Giants have the edge because they will be able to play games scheduled at 4:00 instead of having to take naptime.
ABDREW
March 22, 2005 at 10:31PM View BBCode
I heard the press confereence. He sounds like a guy whos whole world is about tho crach down on him. And you know what I don't feel one bit bad about it. The guy is an arrogant ass who despite all the evidence refuses to admit and/or apoligize for take steriods/HG
disciple
March 22, 2005 at 10:36PM View BBCode
I also heard part of the press conference - didn't it sound like he was retiring?!
ABDREW
It did, I'm not expecting to see him back this year at all and hopefully never again
March 22, 2005 at 10:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by disciple
I also heard part of the press conference - didn't it sound like he was retiring?!
It did, I'm not expecting to see him back this year at all and hopefully never again
whiskybear
March 22, 2005 at 10:40PM View BBCode
It certainly wouldn't break my heart to see him bow out just 11 homers shy of the Babe and 52 shy of Hank.
skierdude44
March 22, 2005 at 10:45PM View BBCode
There is nothing I would like more than to see him retire now and not pass Ruth and Aaron. There are no questions about the legitamacy of those two guys on the field and their accomplishments. Bonds is another issue all together and I would hate for a tainted player to pass the two greatest home run hitters in history.
Smocko
We'll all miss Barry Bonds in a few years. We'll never see another player like him - no one has ever had the same combination of terrifying opposing managers while being totally unprotected in his lineup. He has drawn over 300 more walks than no. 2 Hank Aaron. His unprecidented 500-500 mark is a reminder of his incredible skilll and talent before the suspicion years. His swing, coming out of his crounched, armor-protected stance, is a beautiful angry attack on everyone who doubts him. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest of all-time and the greatest player most of us will ever see, easily the best hitter in baseball since Mays and Aaron.
======================================================
What the steriod reports can't take away are the stolen bases, the walks, and the swing.
March 23, 2005 at 04:56AM View BBCode
The Padres would have won the division anyway.We'll all miss Barry Bonds in a few years. We'll never see another player like him - no one has ever had the same combination of terrifying opposing managers while being totally unprotected in his lineup. He has drawn over 300 more walks than no. 2 Hank Aaron. His unprecidented 500-500 mark is a reminder of his incredible skilll and talent before the suspicion years. His swing, coming out of his crounched, armor-protected stance, is a beautiful angry attack on everyone who doubts him. Barry Bonds is one of the greatest of all-time and the greatest player most of us will ever see, easily the best hitter in baseball since Mays and Aaron.
======================================================
What the steriod reports can't take away are the stolen bases, the walks, and the swing.
whiskybear
Bonds has two styles: 1) keeping the bat on his shoulder, and jogging to first. 2) mashing the hell out of the ball. We may never see a more VIOLENT hitter in our lifetimes (though I'd say, given the average life expectancy, that's dubious for most of us). But I don't think he's very interesting.
March 23, 2005 at 04:58AM View BBCode
Personally, I'd rather watch a guy like Ichiro swing the bat, with the ball jumping off the lumber in any of a thousand different directions, seeing the skinny guy burn up the basepaths.Bonds has two styles: 1) keeping the bat on his shoulder, and jogging to first. 2) mashing the hell out of the ball. We may never see a more VIOLENT hitter in our lifetimes (though I'd say, given the average life expectancy, that's dubious for most of us). But I don't think he's very interesting.
Smocko
He is incredible to watch.
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Smocko]
March 23, 2005 at 05:08AM View BBCode
Very interesting ? How about when they have to pitch to him ? It's scary to watch him, as things can move so quickly from the pitcher looking worried to infielders positioning themselves tensely, manager looking like he's going to die, and his swing slashes through everything. Just the sound of Bonds-contact is terrifying.He is incredible to watch.
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Smocko]
Duff77
What we'll never know, it seems, is how much of that prowess was dependant on artifical enhancements. But putting that whole debate to one side for a moment, I don't think there's a more impressive pure-hitter the last few seasons than Barry Bonds.
Of course, anyone's entitled to like whatever style of hitter they choose. I don't. Ichiro is a great hitter too--just very, very different in style.
March 23, 2005 at 06:03AM View BBCode
I have to agree. The few times I've seen Bonds in person I've simply been amazed. He can hit anything. He has so much bat speed and picks the ball up so well, and so early, that it's nearly impossible to fool him. You can get him out, surely, but even when you do, he's going to hit the ball hard most of the time. I think as a pure matter of technique, he may be the greatest hitter the game has ever seen.What we'll never know, it seems, is how much of that prowess was dependant on artifical enhancements. But putting that whole debate to one side for a moment, I don't think there's a more impressive pure-hitter the last few seasons than Barry Bonds.
Of course, anyone's entitled to like whatever style of hitter they choose. I don't. Ichiro is a great hitter too--just very, very different in style.
1tim412
Actually number 2 is Rickey Henderson and the tally is a difference of 112, not 300.
March 23, 2005 at 06:18AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Smocko
He has drawn over 300 more walks than no. 2 Hank Aaron.
Actually number 2 is Rickey Henderson and the tally is a difference of 112, not 300.
Railroad
A. He brought the attitude of the public on himself.
B. I am sorry his kids get the brundt of his attitude toward the public.
C. Even if he ever breaks Hank's record he will NEVER be as class a person as Hammer was.
D. Pressure? Hank had his family threatened with death when going after Babe's record.
E. No matter whether or not he did steroids, his eye to hand contact is very solid and that doe not happen because of steroids. So it is a shame that he blew a real legend rep by doing the steroids.
March 23, 2005 at 06:56AM View BBCode
There are a few things about this that I feel strongly about:A. He brought the attitude of the public on himself.
B. I am sorry his kids get the brundt of his attitude toward the public.
C. Even if he ever breaks Hank's record he will NEVER be as class a person as Hammer was.
D. Pressure? Hank had his family threatened with death when going after Babe's record.
E. No matter whether or not he did steroids, his eye to hand contact is very solid and that doe not happen because of steroids. So it is a shame that he blew a real legend rep by doing the steroids.
Duff77
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Duff77]
March 23, 2005 at 07:02AM View BBCode
Agree, agree, agree. Great hitter, but... You want out, Barry? You want the pressure off? Okay, then quit the game, give away all your countless millions, and go work a cash register at Wal-Mart for a few years. Then tell us how much your fucking life sucks. Bite me.[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Duff77]
whiskybear
Like I said. He's violence with a baseball bat, condensed into 245 pounds. He got 120 free passes last year, and those were just the intentional walks. Sure, he makes pitchers anxious because he straight murders fastballs. So what? I see 2 or 3 home runs almost every game that I watch. I just expect to see them more frequently when Bonds is at the plate.
No one in the major leagues has better bat control than Ichiro. I live in Seattle. During baseball season, come crash on my couch, and we'll catch a 3-game series---two hours early for batting practice, garlic fries, nine innings. You'll see. No other hitter places the ball better than Ichiro. You never know where he's going to try to place the ball, but watching him swing, you always know he meant to put it there. And he can hit anything. He's so great at hitting junk, he removes strategy from the equation. Go ahead, pitch to him. Throw him junk. Whatever you throw, he'll probably make contact. Meanwhile, 1/3 of Bonds' plate appearances, the bat might never leave his shoulder.
No one in the game has a better chance to bat .400 than Ichiro. People gripe because he always hits singles, that he's obsessed with base hits and sacrifices slugging for batting average. So he's a little controversial. That's how it is with artists.
March 23, 2005 at 08:17AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Smocko
Very interesting ? How about when they have to pitch to him ? It's scary to watch him, as things can move so quickly from the pitcher looking worried to infielders positioning themselves tensely, manager looking like he's going to die, and his swing slashes through everything. Just the sound of Bonds-contact is terrifying.
He is incredible to watch.
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Smocko]
Like I said. He's violence with a baseball bat, condensed into 245 pounds. He got 120 free passes last year, and those were just the intentional walks. Sure, he makes pitchers anxious because he straight murders fastballs. So what? I see 2 or 3 home runs almost every game that I watch. I just expect to see them more frequently when Bonds is at the plate.
No one in the major leagues has better bat control than Ichiro. I live in Seattle. During baseball season, come crash on my couch, and we'll catch a 3-game series---two hours early for batting practice, garlic fries, nine innings. You'll see. No other hitter places the ball better than Ichiro. You never know where he's going to try to place the ball, but watching him swing, you always know he meant to put it there. And he can hit anything. He's so great at hitting junk, he removes strategy from the equation. Go ahead, pitch to him. Throw him junk. Whatever you throw, he'll probably make contact. Meanwhile, 1/3 of Bonds' plate appearances, the bat might never leave his shoulder.
No one in the game has a better chance to bat .400 than Ichiro. People gripe because he always hits singles, that he's obsessed with base hits and sacrifices slugging for batting average. So he's a little controversial. That's how it is with artists.
Duff77
Noting that like Frank Thomas before him, Bonds might rightly be accused of not using his skills (taking too many walks). He doesn't like to offer at balls out of his zone, though a lot of the time, he never even gets the chance to.
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Duff77]
March 23, 2005 at 08:33AM View BBCode
Ichiro would see as many walks as Bonds if he had Bonds' power. Bonds may not place the ball the same way, but Bonds can make contact with anything, anywhere. He just waits for the pitches he can drive because that's his job--drive the ball. Ichiro's job is to find a way to get on base, so he swings at anything he can turn into a hit. I'm not saying Ichiro doesn't have better bat control than Bonds--he does--I'm just saying that the characterization of Bonds as an all-out fastball only hitter is wrong. There's no safe place to pitch the man.Noting that like Frank Thomas before him, Bonds might rightly be accused of not using his skills (taking too many walks). He doesn't like to offer at balls out of his zone, though a lot of the time, he never even gets the chance to.
[Edited on 3-23-2005 by Duff77]
whiskybear
Sure, ME will say "OPS and Billy Beane and walks are better and blah, blah, blah," but the fact remains that it is a fucking boring style of game, results be damned.
March 23, 2005 at 08:40AM View BBCode
I misrepresented Bonds when I said he "straight murders fastballs." He also destroys curveballs, kills sliders and decapitates change-ups. I just get bored with watching a guy step to the plate and ONLY swing at pitches that are right in his wheelhouse. Granted, his extraordinary ability allows him to be so selective. It's just not very interesting baseball. But hell, I'm a hit-and-run, bunt single kind of guy. I like the true N.L. game, which is why the 2001 Mariners were such a pleasure to watch (until they shit the bed in the ALCS like any knowledgeable M's fan---yes, essentially an oxymoron given all the Starbucks sucking yuppy fans here---expected). They played small ball better than any other club in the A.L.Sure, ME will say "OPS and Billy Beane and walks are better and blah, blah, blah," but the fact remains that it is a fucking boring style of game, results be damned.
Duff77
March 23, 2005 at 08:55AM View BBCode
I take no issue with your preferences. I just think Bonds could be a pretty good Ichiro if he chose to be. That's just not what people want, or what produces wins. Or better said, if you're going to have a one-man offense, that one-man better be Barry Bonds. Myself personally, I like to see both styles within the same team. It makes things more interesting.
skierdude44
As far as never seeing another player as terrifying offensively as Bonds, I don't think that is true. Actually I think that there already is a player in the Majors that could take that crown away from Bonds. His name is Albert Pujols. In just 4 years he has hit 160 homers and has a .333 career batting average. He also has had an OPS over 1.000 in 3 of his 4 seasons as a pro. He's done all this and he is only 25. Next to a juiced up Bonds he puts the most fear in the hearts of managers throughout the league. Another guy who, in his prime, may have been a more terrifying figure in baseball was Ken Griffey Jr. Before all the injuries the guy was a beast. He had tremendous power at the plate and in center he tracked down nearly every ball. He was probably the most feared hitter in the AL during the 90's.
Bonds probably was the best and most terrifying combination of power and speed that anyone has ever seen. And even without the juice he still would have become the first 500/500 player ever. But the Barry Bonds who drew 755 walks over the last four years is not the same Barry Bonds who hit 42 homers and stole 40 bases in 1996. The walks over the last few years are a result of his increase in power which is due to the steroids. Sure he would still make contact a ton due to his outstanding hand eye coordination and he has a good batter's eye which are things that steroids can't improve but the steroids have helped to lift a lot of balls that would have been flyouts and changed them to home runs. Before 2001 Barry Bonds' career average was in the .290's range. 71% of the time he made an out. Those are pretty good odds for a pitcher. Since 2001 he has batted .350. The steroids obviously helped him with that a bit. Balls that would usually be outs were "powered" out of the park. If you pitch to him the percentages are still in your favor. The only gamble is that if you do pitch to him and he does make contact that it will end up in McCovey Cove. Teams shoot themselves in the foot sometimes with all of these free passes they hand him. Sure you're taking away the chance that he homers off of you but you are passing up some pretty favorable odds (between 65% and 71%) that he will make an out. In effect it gives the Giants 4 outs per inning and the other team only gets three. In the 90's it wasn't like that though. Bonds didn't put fear in managers any more than any of the other superstars at that time did. It's been over the last 4 years where that fear has really surfaced and it is largely due to steroids. Bonds would have been a surefire first-ballot HOFer if he had not taken roids and broken *Roger Maris' home run record. He would have become the first 500/500 man. He would have been the greatest combination of power and speed that we have ever seen. But he might not have become the most feared hitter that we have ever seen if it hadn't been for the roids.
March 23, 2005 at 12:32PM View BBCode
Ichiro's bat control is amazing. Sometimes they'll show a highlight of him when he was playing in Japan and the ball bounced in front of the plate and he swung at it. He made contact and drove it out of the park. We all know how hard it is to hit a baseball but its 10 times harder to hit it after a bounce and to hit it with any kind of authority.As far as never seeing another player as terrifying offensively as Bonds, I don't think that is true. Actually I think that there already is a player in the Majors that could take that crown away from Bonds. His name is Albert Pujols. In just 4 years he has hit 160 homers and has a .333 career batting average. He also has had an OPS over 1.000 in 3 of his 4 seasons as a pro. He's done all this and he is only 25. Next to a juiced up Bonds he puts the most fear in the hearts of managers throughout the league. Another guy who, in his prime, may have been a more terrifying figure in baseball was Ken Griffey Jr. Before all the injuries the guy was a beast. He had tremendous power at the plate and in center he tracked down nearly every ball. He was probably the most feared hitter in the AL during the 90's.
Bonds probably was the best and most terrifying combination of power and speed that anyone has ever seen. And even without the juice he still would have become the first 500/500 player ever. But the Barry Bonds who drew 755 walks over the last four years is not the same Barry Bonds who hit 42 homers and stole 40 bases in 1996. The walks over the last few years are a result of his increase in power which is due to the steroids. Sure he would still make contact a ton due to his outstanding hand eye coordination and he has a good batter's eye which are things that steroids can't improve but the steroids have helped to lift a lot of balls that would have been flyouts and changed them to home runs. Before 2001 Barry Bonds' career average was in the .290's range. 71% of the time he made an out. Those are pretty good odds for a pitcher. Since 2001 he has batted .350. The steroids obviously helped him with that a bit. Balls that would usually be outs were "powered" out of the park. If you pitch to him the percentages are still in your favor. The only gamble is that if you do pitch to him and he does make contact that it will end up in McCovey Cove. Teams shoot themselves in the foot sometimes with all of these free passes they hand him. Sure you're taking away the chance that he homers off of you but you are passing up some pretty favorable odds (between 65% and 71%) that he will make an out. In effect it gives the Giants 4 outs per inning and the other team only gets three. In the 90's it wasn't like that though. Bonds didn't put fear in managers any more than any of the other superstars at that time did. It's been over the last 4 years where that fear has really surfaced and it is largely due to steroids. Bonds would have been a surefire first-ballot HOFer if he had not taken roids and broken *Roger Maris' home run record. He would have become the first 500/500 man. He would have been the greatest combination of power and speed that we have ever seen. But he might not have become the most feared hitter that we have ever seen if it hadn't been for the roids.
whiskybear
No, 60 percent of the time he made an out, since his OBP was around .400. You presuppose that hitters don't have any control over whether or not they walk, which is, of course, not true. Now the percentage is down to 45 percent or so. That number is influenced by the absurd number of times he's intentionally walked, but if you took all of the intentional passes away, I guarantee you he doesn't make an out 65 to 71 percent of the time.
March 23, 2005 at 05:36PM View BBCode
Originally posted by skierdude44
Before 2001 Barry Bonds' career average was in the .290's range. 71% of the time he made an out. Those are pretty good odds for a pitcher. ... Sure you're taking away the chance that he homers off of you but you are passing up some pretty favorable odds (between 65% and 71%) that he will make an out.
No, 60 percent of the time he made an out, since his OBP was around .400. You presuppose that hitters don't have any control over whether or not they walk, which is, of course, not true. Now the percentage is down to 45 percent or so. That number is influenced by the absurd number of times he's intentionally walked, but if you took all of the intentional passes away, I guarantee you he doesn't make an out 65 to 71 percent of the time.
barterer2002
1. Personally he has the personality of a cactus
2. He seems to take the brunt of the steroids controversy
3. He would be a great hitter in any era
4. He's the greatest ballplayer of my lifetime (and Mays and Aaron played in my lifetime).
5. He would have been a 500/500 player without steroids
6. Its scarier to have Bonds come up against YOUR team than to watch him in an esoteric manner without an interest in the result.
7. He ranks in the top five players to have ever played the game
8. He was the dominant player of his generation, which included many other players on steroids as well that he also dominated.
9. He dominated as a hitter in a way that only Babe Ruth has done before.
10. He will be missed on the field but probably not off of it.
March 23, 2005 at 05:48PM View BBCode
My thoughts on Bonds:1. Personally he has the personality of a cactus
2. He seems to take the brunt of the steroids controversy
3. He would be a great hitter in any era
4. He's the greatest ballplayer of my lifetime (and Mays and Aaron played in my lifetime).
5. He would have been a 500/500 player without steroids
6. Its scarier to have Bonds come up against YOUR team than to watch him in an esoteric manner without an interest in the result.
7. He ranks in the top five players to have ever played the game
8. He was the dominant player of his generation, which included many other players on steroids as well that he also dominated.
9. He dominated as a hitter in a way that only Babe Ruth has done before.
10. He will be missed on the field but probably not off of it.
Railroad
March 23, 2005 at 06:39PM View formatted
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The problem with the pitchers is they are afraid to hit his big behind! I would throw inside right on his rump to make my point that he is human and bleeds just like anyone else. If you go back to when he was in Pittsburg you will see he was a better Ichiro because he also had power then. He quit stealing bases when he discovered that homers gets him more dollars in the bank. We all agree he is a jerk.
mike14
March 23, 2005 at 07:30PM View BBCode
Bonds comments yesterday were laughable. What an idiot! I truly hope he doesn't come back, but knowing his personality he will be back to at least pass Ruth. I keep reading that hand eye coordination can't be helped by steriods. I am not a doctor, but just having good hand eye coordination doesn't help a guy hit the ball as far as he does. Steriods does help with bat speed which he has plenty of due to steriods. He is a great player but a lot of that is due to the fact that he does/did take steriods. So, a lot of his greatness to me is tainted. Finally, pitchers should throw inside to him more and if he was a man he would take off the body armor and then stand on top of the plate.
JollyGreenGiant
Yes, he is probably the most dangerous and feared slugger ever, but he is a miserable and selfish ass whom I despise.
March 23, 2005 at 07:35PM View BBCode
I know it's bad to say it, but all during this offseason I've been hoping for his arthritic knee to worsen and take him out of the lineup for an extended period of time. I've gotten what I wanted and even more. I don't think he deserves to pass Aaron, and now very likely he won't. I feel bad that he has to suffer through all the media junk and the effects of surgeries, but his arrogance and blatant steriod use makes me feel like he deserves it.Yes, he is probably the most dangerous and feared slugger ever, but he is a miserable and selfish ass whom I despise.
celamantia
Let's see him in the batter's box without the 'roids and the body armor for a while.
March 23, 2005 at 09:31PM View BBCode
Bonds is going on the disabled list long enough to get the juice out of his system before testing.Let's see him in the batter's box without the 'roids and the body armor for a while.
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