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ironhorse
[Edited on 6-26-2005 by ironhorse]
ICHIRO AND THE HALL
June 26, 2005 at 05:27AM View BBCode
[color=Black]Is it entirely possible to even suggest that Ichiro Suzuki has a shot at the hall at this juncture in his "American" playing career?[/color] From my viewpoint, yes, anything is possible, although it is early in his major league career. Remember, that he spent the first nine years of his professional career in Japan. There, he accumulated over 1,000 hits, and just recently, at age 30 accumulated 1,000 hits as well. Combined, he is approaching the 2,300 mark. Some detracters have said that his career marks in Japan should not be included when disscussion of the hall is brought up. There are voices on both sides of this issue. However, I think that maybe some type of consideration should be given. As a 19yr old player myself, Ichiro is a major inspiration to strive towards making the big leagues. When I watch him play, he makes me believe that hey, I too can succeed if I work hard enough, despite being 5'8", and weighing 141 lbs. Even if he doesn't achieve 3,000 hits here in America, He has proven time and time again that he meets the qualifications of a sure hall of famer. He has always been a major contributor to his teams success, even if his team is losing. His play on the field is overwhelmingly superior to most of his rivals out there. His character on and off the field makes him endearing to fans and even opposing players alike. He can change the outcome of a game with a bunt, slash, steal, throw, and a catch. He is a throwback, and is not afraid to do what is neccessary to help his team win. Not only that but, he can produce offensively, and defensively, what more can you ask for. So, yes i do think he belongs someday. Again i ask, what do you think?:cool2:[Edited on 6-26-2005 by ironhorse]
1tim412
June 26, 2005 at 06:56AM View BBCode
If his previous accomplishments in Japan don't make him a vet when he comes to America, then they don't count in HOF consideration. How many years has he "proven time and time again that he meets the qualifications of a sure hall of famer?" Yeah, if he does this for 8-10 more years, he should get in, but you're jumping the gun a bit here right now. As of right now, if this is a sign of him declining (which it may or may not be) then he sure as heck shouldn't make the hall.
ME
June 26, 2005 at 07:19AM View BBCode
What he means to say is that, since Ichiro! does not play for the Athletics, he's got no shot.
1tim412
Maybe I should hire you as an interpreter...
June 26, 2005 at 07:26AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ME
What he means to say is that, since Ichiro! does not play for the Athletics, he's got no shot.
Maybe I should hire you as an interpreter...
ME
June 26, 2005 at 07:30AM View BBCode
My rates are $0.02 per character, I also offer a German service for $0.05 per character.
whiskybear
June 26, 2005 at 07:54AM View BBCode
Assuming he reaches the 10-year minimum career length, Ichiro will be inducted in the Hall of Fame. At ten years, he'll have more than 2,000 hits, at least two batting titles, an MVP and a ROY, a career average well over .300, and a World Series ring---presumably one from his stint with the Yankees.
ME
June 26, 2005 at 08:17AM View BBCode
An undeserving MVP, but yes, if he plays 10 years he will probably get in unless he keeps playing like this year.
ironhorse
In Seattle's recent series against Baltimore, Ichiro did what he does best, get on base and try to score. He did that, but didn't get driven in as much as he should have. And what do you mean "how many years has he proven time and time again that he meets the qualifications of a sure hall of famer"? Four and a half seasons worth, my friend. Maybe you are blind. If you noticed, Jackie Robinson made his debut at the same age as Ichiro (27 yrs), they both won "Rookie" of the year honors as well, and both won MVP'S, with the exception of Ichiro winning it in his first year. Robinson played 10 seasons, and was already on the wane by age 34. Looking at his numbers, no he does qualify. However, voters that saw him play had the foresight to realize that Robinson's play transcended beyond his numbers, combinated with his competitiveness, made him a sure hall of famer. Koufax "proven time and time again" that he was a sure hall of famer for a six year stint, so please think about that. Yes, Ichiro has played only four and a half seasons, but so far he has put up the numbers and even made a few challenges to some of the old-timers in the hall to make a case for himself to be in the hall. Moreover, I think that when it's all said and done, Ichiro will get in. And on a different note, Ichiro does not need to play for the A's to get his shot, ask Walter Johnson.
June 26, 2005 at 08:31AM View BBCode
Hall of famers are the type of players that can succeed, despite the fallicies of his team. Last year, Seattle you might as well say had about(99) 100 losses. Yet, Ichiro still managed to score 100 runs, 262 hits, and a .372 avg for that team, got that. One man can only do so much. And I don't think that I'm jumping the gun in no sense what so ever. If you have paid attention, and it seems you haven't, I mentioned that Ichrio has always been a major contributor to his team's success, and that is one of the things voters look at, ask Joe Morgan.In Seattle's recent series against Baltimore, Ichiro did what he does best, get on base and try to score. He did that, but didn't get driven in as much as he should have. And what do you mean "how many years has he proven time and time again that he meets the qualifications of a sure hall of famer"? Four and a half seasons worth, my friend. Maybe you are blind. If you noticed, Jackie Robinson made his debut at the same age as Ichiro (27 yrs), they both won "Rookie" of the year honors as well, and both won MVP'S, with the exception of Ichiro winning it in his first year. Robinson played 10 seasons, and was already on the wane by age 34. Looking at his numbers, no he does qualify. However, voters that saw him play had the foresight to realize that Robinson's play transcended beyond his numbers, combinated with his competitiveness, made him a sure hall of famer. Koufax "proven time and time again" that he was a sure hall of famer for a six year stint, so please think about that. Yes, Ichiro has played only four and a half seasons, but so far he has put up the numbers and even made a few challenges to some of the old-timers in the hall to make a case for himself to be in the hall. Moreover, I think that when it's all said and done, Ichiro will get in. And on a different note, Ichiro does not need to play for the A's to get his shot, ask Walter Johnson.
ME
June 26, 2005 at 08:33AM View BBCode
He hasn't been the best player in the league any of the years he's played, and only two years ('01 and '04) could he even be considered for the top 5, unlike Koufax. He needs to keep playing at this level for a couple more years.
ironhorse
June 26, 2005 at 08:35AM View BBCode
Also, all I said was that maybe some consideration should be given to his accomplishments in Japan. But even without that, he is still making a case for himself. But then again, many players from the Negro leagues got in beacuse of what they did, in the Negro leagues, so are you saying they should not be in the hall as well?
ironhorse
June 26, 2005 at 08:51AM View BBCode
Um, yea he has. 01 and 04. And among many fans, the Universal opinion is that he is in the top four, with Rodriguez, Vladimir, and Manny ahead of him. Furthermore, it is his skills as a player that does puts him well above the rest of the competion. Please name one player that has more speed, a better arm, defensive ability, batting eye, and great hitting insticts that can put it all together better than my man Ichiro here in the AL, and I will shut up on the matter. Rodriguez strikes out too much, as well as Manny. Vladimir doesn't steal as much as he should, as well as A-Rod. Manny can't steal at all, lacks defensive depth, and his arm is not that strong. However, I will agree with you ME that he does need too get playing for many years and put up more numbers. But, I disagree with the notion that he must average 200 hits, 100 runs, and a .330 plus avg for the next six to eights years. If he can put up at least decent numbers, he'll get in. But then again, the hall is not all about numbers, so maybe their is some commonground for us after all.
whiskybear
I wish I believed this, but I think Edgar is going to get the shaft because he DH'ed for too long.
June 26, 2005 at 08:57AM View BBCode
Originally posted by youngallstar
Edgar will get in before Ichiro does
I wish I believed this, but I think Edgar is going to get the shaft because he DH'ed for too long.
ironhorse
June 26, 2005 at 09:00AM View BBCode
DUH! Of course Edgar will get in before Ichiro. Edgar has two batting titles, a career average over .310, and above all, the greatest DH of all time. He will go down as the best offensive DH leading all DH'S in homers, batting avg, runs, and rbi's. But then again, Edgar DID PLAY MORE YEARS THAN ICHIRO, and will be up for nomination into the hall. But then again, the question of the DH in the hall is right up there will ALLOWING RELIEVERS in as well. Although I want Edgar to get in, we all have seen how the hall is treating Sutter, Gossage, and Smith. But then again, this is about Ichiro, not Edgar. Nice try youngallstar.
youngallstar
Unless, as ME said, he averages great numbers before he retires
June 26, 2005 at 09:04AM View BBCode
Ha, you missed my point. Edgar unfortunately will not get in and ICHIRO! will not as well.Unless, as ME said, he averages great numbers before he retires
ironhorse
June 26, 2005 at 09:12AM View BBCode
No, I didn't. As it was mentioned eariler, Edgar DH'ed for too long, and already the hall is split on if it should let in full time DH'ers, like Edgar. Ichiro will be in long before he does, on the basis that as a "POSITION PLAYER", he played more games, and had "MORE OPPORTUNITES" than "ONE APPEARENCE" in an INNING to show what he is about, prove his worth, and contribute more than "ONE WAY"! Furthermore, you said that Edgar will get in. If it was saracasm you was going for, this is not the place since as you can see, things are taken quite literal and seriously.
youngallstar
Ichiro, probably wont be getting in. Sorry big guy.
June 26, 2005 at 09:15AM View BBCode
Sometimes I forget that some people have no clue what sarcasm is, I apologizeIchiro, probably wont be getting in. Sorry big guy.
ironhorse
June 26, 2005 at 09:23AM View BBCode
Oh, I know exactly what it is, but this is sports, and as guys you know we will defend our heroes to the end. And who knows, he might.
skierdude44
This is not necessarily correct. Last season A-rod was 28 for 32 in stolen base attempts. Ichiro was 36 for 47. Yes Ichiro stole more bases but A-rod's success rate was 87%, Ichiro's was 76%. In 2002 Vladimir Guerrero stole 40 out of 60 attempts. Ichiro was 31 out of 46 that year. Neither had a good percentage, Ichiro at 67% and Guerrero at 66%. A-rod could be a 30-30 or 40-40 man every year but his managers don't let him steal that often because of the risk of injury. The same is true to a degree for Guerrero.
As for your argument about Ichiro belonging in the top four I believe that you made one glaring oversight in your list. What about Albert Pujols? The guy is just as good of a pure hitter as Ichiro. Pujols' career average is .333 and Ichiro's is .339 but Pujols' career OBP is .413 to Ichiro's .384. He doesn't have the speed that Ichiro has but he more than makes up for it with his power numbers. And the defense argument really doesn't work because Ichiro plays a corner outfield position, the least important defensive position. Granted he is a good defensive player but it's not the same as a good defensive shortstop or catcher or something like that.
Ichiro is not the same case as Jackie Robinson. Robinson isn't in the Hall because of his Negro League accomplishments. He's in the Hall because he broke the color barrier, a very important accomplishment in baseball history, and because of his on the field play while in the majors. Ichiro was the first Japanese position player to come over and play in the Majors but he was not the first Japanese player to come over and that in no way compares to Robinson breaking the color barrier.
Ichiro is a good player and may earn his way into the Hall when his career is over but it's really hard to induct someone based on 4 and a half seasons. Also like Tim said, if he doesn't count as a vet for the ROY voting then why should his seasons in Japan count for the HOF voting? I like Ichiro, I like the way he plays the game. He's a solid player but let's wait until he retires before we start reviewing his career and making HOF bids for him.
June 26, 2005 at 12:52PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ironhorse
Vladimir doesn't steal as much as he should, as well as A-Rod.
This is not necessarily correct. Last season A-rod was 28 for 32 in stolen base attempts. Ichiro was 36 for 47. Yes Ichiro stole more bases but A-rod's success rate was 87%, Ichiro's was 76%. In 2002 Vladimir Guerrero stole 40 out of 60 attempts. Ichiro was 31 out of 46 that year. Neither had a good percentage, Ichiro at 67% and Guerrero at 66%. A-rod could be a 30-30 or 40-40 man every year but his managers don't let him steal that often because of the risk of injury. The same is true to a degree for Guerrero.
As for your argument about Ichiro belonging in the top four I believe that you made one glaring oversight in your list. What about Albert Pujols? The guy is just as good of a pure hitter as Ichiro. Pujols' career average is .333 and Ichiro's is .339 but Pujols' career OBP is .413 to Ichiro's .384. He doesn't have the speed that Ichiro has but he more than makes up for it with his power numbers. And the defense argument really doesn't work because Ichiro plays a corner outfield position, the least important defensive position. Granted he is a good defensive player but it's not the same as a good defensive shortstop or catcher or something like that.
Ichiro is not the same case as Jackie Robinson. Robinson isn't in the Hall because of his Negro League accomplishments. He's in the Hall because he broke the color barrier, a very important accomplishment in baseball history, and because of his on the field play while in the majors. Ichiro was the first Japanese position player to come over and play in the Majors but he was not the first Japanese player to come over and that in no way compares to Robinson breaking the color barrier.
Ichiro is a good player and may earn his way into the Hall when his career is over but it's really hard to induct someone based on 4 and a half seasons. Also like Tim said, if he doesn't count as a vet for the ROY voting then why should his seasons in Japan count for the HOF voting? I like Ichiro, I like the way he plays the game. He's a solid player but let's wait until he retires before we start reviewing his career and making HOF bids for him.
barterer2002
Certainly its premature to assess Ichiro's HOF qualifications. Four and a half prime seasons isn't what Hall of Famers are judged on. If we judged players based on what they did from age 27-31 we'd have guys like [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aloufe01.shtml]Felipe Alou[/url], [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buhneja01.shtml]Jay Buhner[/url] and [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml]Dale Murphy[/url] in the Hall of Fame. The question for Ichiro is whether he'll be able to do over the next six and a half seasons what he's done over the first four and a half. It seems unlikely mostly because Ichiro has young skills that he relies on such as speed, bat speed and arm strength all of which tend to decline as a player ages through his thirties.
Also, Ichiro may not wish to play the ten years required. It has to be mentally tiring to deal with all the Japanese media all the time as well as playing and living away from home and everything familiar for seven months every year. As his skills decline he may take a look at things at age 35 or so and just hang them up-or go back to Japan to play (although I think that's unlikely).
June 26, 2005 at 01:17PM View BBCode
I have to agree with Skiier. Putting Ichiro in the same breath as Jackie Robinson misses half the reason Jackie is in the Hall of Fame.Certainly its premature to assess Ichiro's HOF qualifications. Four and a half prime seasons isn't what Hall of Famers are judged on. If we judged players based on what they did from age 27-31 we'd have guys like [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/a/aloufe01.shtml]Felipe Alou[/url], [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/buhneja01.shtml]Jay Buhner[/url] and [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/m/murphda05.shtml]Dale Murphy[/url] in the Hall of Fame. The question for Ichiro is whether he'll be able to do over the next six and a half seasons what he's done over the first four and a half. It seems unlikely mostly because Ichiro has young skills that he relies on such as speed, bat speed and arm strength all of which tend to decline as a player ages through his thirties.
Also, Ichiro may not wish to play the ten years required. It has to be mentally tiring to deal with all the Japanese media all the time as well as playing and living away from home and everything familiar for seven months every year. As his skills decline he may take a look at things at age 35 or so and just hang them up-or go back to Japan to play (although I think that's unlikely).
FuriousGiorge
Ichiro is not the same case as Jackie Robinson. Robinson isn't in the Hall because of his Negro League accomplishments. He's in the Hall because he broke the color barrier, a very important accomplishment in baseball history, and because of his on the field play while in the majors. [/quote]
1) His Negro League accomplishments matter, even if they were somewhat slight.
2) His being the person who broke the color barrier has very little to do with him being in the Hall of Fame. He got into the Hall based on his accomplishments as a player in the National League and the Negro Leagues.
3) Ichiro may be a Hall of Famer some day, but he deserves no credit for what he did in Japan, and he needs to perform at a high level for another 5 and a half years at least. Not necessarily an MVP level, but a higher level than he is playing at right now.
[Edited on 6-26-2005 by FuriousGiorge]
June 26, 2005 at 02:10PM View formatted
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[quote][i]Originally posted by skierdude44[/i]
Ichiro is not the same case as Jackie Robinson. Robinson isn't in the Hall because of his Negro League accomplishments. He's in the Hall because he broke the color barrier, a very important accomplishment in baseball history, and because of his on the field play while in the majors. [/quote]
1) His Negro League accomplishments matter, even if they were somewhat slight.
2) His being the person who broke the color barrier has very little to do with him being in the Hall of Fame. He got into the Hall based on his accomplishments as a player in the National League and the Negro Leagues.
3) Ichiro may be a Hall of Famer some day, but he deserves no credit for what he did in Japan, and he needs to perform at a high level for another 5 and a half years at least. Not necessarily an MVP level, but a higher level than he is playing at right now.
[Edited on 6-26-2005 by FuriousGiorge]
barterer2002
Furious, I certainly understand the point you're trying to make but I think you're dismissing the effect of Jackie Robinson as the man to break the color barrier on his admission to the Hall of Fame. Lets be honest here, Jackie was a terrific player for about seven major league seasons, he was a good player in the Negro leagues before that and one of the top ten by age 26 but probably not top 3. He would likely be a Hall of Fame player without having been the man to break the color barrier but is more margainal-more like a better version of Monte Irvin was was a vet committee inductee. Jackie, however, is an overwhelming Hall of Famer because of the color barrier. His impact on the game cannot be measured simply on the field. That's what makes him such a surefire Hall of Famer.
Let me put it this way. If you were making a list of the top ten Hall of Famers, you may or may not but Jackie on the list but he would certainly be in the discussion and its because he was the man who broke the color barrier that puts him in the discussion.
June 26, 2005 at 04:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
2) His being the person who broke the color barrier has very little to do with him being in the Hall of Fame. He got into the Hall based on his accomplishments as a player in the National League and the Negro Leagues.
[Edited on 6-26-2005 by FuriousGiorge]
Furious, I certainly understand the point you're trying to make but I think you're dismissing the effect of Jackie Robinson as the man to break the color barrier on his admission to the Hall of Fame. Lets be honest here, Jackie was a terrific player for about seven major league seasons, he was a good player in the Negro leagues before that and one of the top ten by age 26 but probably not top 3. He would likely be a Hall of Fame player without having been the man to break the color barrier but is more margainal-more like a better version of Monte Irvin was was a vet committee inductee. Jackie, however, is an overwhelming Hall of Famer because of the color barrier. His impact on the game cannot be measured simply on the field. That's what makes him such a surefire Hall of Famer.
Let me put it this way. If you were making a list of the top ten Hall of Famers, you may or may not but Jackie on the list but he would certainly be in the discussion and its because he was the man who broke the color barrier that puts him in the discussion.
whiskybear
June 26, 2005 at 04:14PM View BBCode
Robinson was the most important player of all time (some stupid girl like Bill James might say Ray Chapman, but that would just get him punched in the face), but I don't think that wins him entrance into the discussion of baseball's best players. Historical significance and courage are not sweet, steamy helpings of statistics.
FuriousGiorge
[Edited on 6-26-2005 by FuriousGiorge]
June 26, 2005 at 05:08PM View BBCode
People dismiss his pre-majors accomplishments too easily when they rate him as a ballplayer. Unfortunately, when discussing Jackie, it is very difficult for people to separate his personal accomplishment as the first black player in the modern era from his professional accomplishments as one of the key players for the late-40's, early-50's Dodgers. This isn't some fly-by-night player who dicked around in the majors for 10 years and got into the Hall because he was black. His career line is .311/.409/.474. That's not the line of a pretty good player, that's the line of a Hall of Famer. There is only one knock on Jackie as a player, that he was a part timer by the time he was 35 and finished when he was 37. People always look at his career totals and his short 10-year career and say, "well, he must be in the Hall in part because he was the first black player". No. He is in the Hall because he was an outstanding player even before he started playing in the major leagues, and continued to be such after he got to the majors. Major League Baseball (and the Second World War) stole something like 6 years of Robinson's major league career, and he deserves to have those years counted back when we judge him.[Edited on 6-26-2005 by FuriousGiorge]
ironhorse
On a different note, I would like to say that earlier I mentioned that if someone can name a player "IN THE AL, NOT NL" that can match Ichiro's abilites, then I will shut up. Albert only has Ichiro in the the power numbers department offensively. Don't you wonder why since 2001, he has gone from Third base to Left Field to first? As opposed to Ichiro who can (and has played) "ALL 3 OUTFIELD POSITIONS" and has proven himself to not be a liability at those positions, as opposed to Albert whom St Louis decided to move 3 different times. His arm is not as good as Ichiro's, and lets not mention his running game. skierdude, if you wanted to make a serious challenge to my claim, then you should have gone with Carlos Beltron, whom (actually) has the five tools and can rival Ichiro.
June 26, 2005 at 06:18PM View BBCode
Ok folks, not to knock anyone, but I can mention both Robinson and Ichiro, it's called a comparision. Furthermore, this is not about how and why Jackie is in the hall, the topic it appears is beginning to be overlooked. barterer, I completely understand the point you are trying to make, but what I am saying is that there is a possibilty that Ichiro can make it to the hall without his merits in the Japan. Moreover, one can't help but to notice the almost errie similarites in both the careers of Robinson and Suzuki.On a different note, I would like to say that earlier I mentioned that if someone can name a player "IN THE AL, NOT NL" that can match Ichiro's abilites, then I will shut up. Albert only has Ichiro in the the power numbers department offensively. Don't you wonder why since 2001, he has gone from Third base to Left Field to first? As opposed to Ichiro who can (and has played) "ALL 3 OUTFIELD POSITIONS" and has proven himself to not be a liability at those positions, as opposed to Albert whom St Louis decided to move 3 different times. His arm is not as good as Ichiro's, and lets not mention his running game. skierdude, if you wanted to make a serious challenge to my claim, then you should have gone with Carlos Beltron, whom (actually) has the five tools and can rival Ichiro.