August 04, 2005 at 06:23PM View BBCode
[color=Black]Ok, we have all been through this.[/color] Very disappointing though. But are we trying him for his moral decision to have taken (knowilly or unknowilly) steriods, or his numbers. Because if it is morals, then Cobb would be out the hall for being a racist which is true. But to say that he does not desevre to be in because he did not "Dominate" his position or his era is really dumb, since about a 1/8 of the players in the hall did not "dominate" their eras or whatever you want to call it. Yaz for example did not dominate the 60's like Mays and Aaron, but yet he is in. Ripken did not domiante like A-Rod, yet he is going in. Gywnn did not dominate the 80's like Dawson and Murphy, yet he too is going in. Get the point. To achieve 500 homers is a hell of a feat that should not be undermined and deserves it's just do as a magic "number" just for the simple reason that it is hard to reach. Do you really think that Manny will reach 500(well, maybe), as well as Frank Thomas? The same goes for 3,000 hits. You can't just go up to the plate and bang out hits and get 3,000. Only about what 26 players have reached 3,000 in the games' long history spanning over 150 plus years. And to say that he does not deserve to get in because he wasn't as productive as the guys he played against is again dumb. How many of those players have actaully reached 3,000 hits and 500 homers, right. Like Murray and Aaron, Raffy was consistent. Because of that, he was able to hang around if you will and reach 500 and 3,000. So what if he did win an MVP, there have been guys that won an MVP and a few rings, but are of lesser talent than Raffy, and aren't in the hall. The game of getting in now is about numbers, and Raffy clearly proven that he has the creds. To judge him for using steriods is one thing, but this is different, honestly. looking at his numbers, lets say for the past 12 seasons, there is nothing glaring about his power numbers, to say the least, as opposed to Bonds and McQuire posting late carreer achievements that made them look like they discovered the fountain of youth. He was as I said before consistent.August 04, 2005 at 06:29PM View BBCode
Facts will becomre more clear with time. Only an idiot would make snap judgements without the facts. So here goes...August 04, 2005 at 06:33PM View BBCode
ok, you say that, that is your opinion. but tell me something, do you think that bonds will get in. since we all know now that have he did for the past 5 or 6 seasons was with the help of steriods?August 04, 2005 at 06:34PM View BBCode
You say that he was 2nd tier, but yet Griffey was for a while on top then fell off, should he make the hall?August 04, 2005 at 06:35PM View formatted
August 04, 2005 at 06:36PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ironhorse
ok, you say that, that is your opinion. but tell me something, do you think that bonds will get in. since we all know now that have he did for the past 5 or 6 seasons was with the help of steriods?
August 04, 2005 at 06:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ironhorse
You say that he was 2nd tier, but yet Griffey was for a while on top then fell off, should he make the hall?
August 04, 2005 at 06:38PM View BBCode
ok dude. first of all you don't have to comment on my opinions, you can simply look past it. secondly, i'm not grilled about a thing. your opinion is your opinion like mine is mine. we are here to express our opinions, no matter how dumb they may be. maybe you need to chill down a little friend, it's not serious.August 04, 2005 at 06:45PM View BBCode
in tht case yha i like griffey man he was the kid :cool2:August 04, 2005 at 07:29PM View BBCode
Please correct me if im wrong, and I very well could be, But I think I remember hearing somewhere that Raf is the 4th player in MLB history to have 3000 hits and 500 homers.. Im too lazy to look it up but this would not only put him in the 1st tier but in the fist half of the first tier..August 04, 2005 at 07:43PM View BBCode
My thing with the HOF is "What did you do on the field?" The HOF should judge a player's baseball ability, not his personality off the field. It's not just nice people who can play the game. You gave a good example with Cobb, who was a terrible person. In fact, many players were racist up until minorities became a major part of the game, but this shouldn't exclude them from the HOF. There have also been drug addicts, wife beaters, alcoholics, and a wide range of bad people who could play the game well. Should Mickey Mantle be excluded because he couldn't turn down a drink? I say hell no, the man could play the game better than most, and that's why he deserves to be in.August 04, 2005 at 08:05PM View BBCode
Raffy was never a first tier hall of fame candidate. Eddie Murray was 500/3000 when 30 homers was a good year. And even he is not among the top 50 players all-time. Raffy was probably in the top 10 best 1b of all-time but not in the top 5. Mark McGwire was probably a few spots ahead of him. In my opinion, knowing what I know at this time (which is not all that much) neither should make the hall of fame. This is my opinion.August 04, 2005 at 08:11PM View BBCode
As a response to the question asked of me... yes I think Bonds will get in. He was on-track as a first tier hall-of-famer before 2000. Maybe he used roids before 2000 and maybe not I don't know. But he won 7 MVP's in all. Please name for me the number of MVP's Raffy won. Don't know? I'll tell you. The answer is zero. OK how about 2nd place? none. OK third place? none. 4th place? none. He did finish 5th once. He had hall of fame numbers as I said. Just not so overwhelming that turning him down would be rediculous. 500 homers ain't what they used to be.August 04, 2005 at 08:20PM View BBCode
Putting the steroid issue aside for a second..August 04, 2005 at 08:28PM View BBCode
Nolan Ryan = 6 times top 5 in Cy Young.August 04, 2005 at 08:39PM View BBCode
Originally posted by DougB
As a response to the question asked of me... yes I think Bonds will get in. He was on-track as a first tier hall-of-famer before 2000. Maybe he used roids before 2000 and maybe not I don't know. But he won 7 MVP's in all. Please name for me the number of MVP's Raffy won. Don't know? I'll tell you. The answer is zero. OK how about 2nd place? none. OK third place? none. 4th place? none. He did finish 5th once. He had hall of fame numbers as I said. Just not so overwhelming that turning him down would be rediculous. 500 homers ain't what they used to be.
August 04, 2005 at 09:26PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ironhorse
[color=Black]Ok, we have all been through this.[/color] Very disappointing though. But are we trying him for his moral decision to have taken (knowilly or unknowilly) steriods, or his numbers. Because if it is morals, then Cobb would be out the hall for being a racist which is true.
But to say that he does not desevre to be in because he did not "Dominate" his position or his era is really dumb, since about a 1/8 of the players in the hall did not "dominate" their eras or whatever you want to call it. Yaz for example did not dominate the 60's like Mays and Aaron, but yet he is in. Ripken did not domiante like A-Rod, yet he is going in.
Gywnn did not dominate the 80's like Dawson and Murphy, yet he too is going in. Get the point.
To achieve 500 homers is a hell of a feat that should not be undermined and deserves it's just do as a magic "number" just for the simple reason that it is hard to reach.
Do you really think that Manny will reach 500(well, maybe), as well as Frank Thomas?
The same goes for 3,000 hits. You can't just go up to the plate and bang out hits and get 3,000. Only about what 26 players have reached 3,000 in the games' long history spanning over 150 plus years.
And to say that he does not deserve to get in because he wasn't as productive as the guys he played against is again dumb. How many of those players have actaully reached 3,000 hits and 500 homers, right. Like Murray and Aaron, Raffy was consistent.
Raffy clearly proven that he has the creds. To judge him for using steriods is one thing, but this is different, honestly. Looking at his numbers, lets say for the past 12 seasons, there is nothing glaring about his power numbers, to say the least, as opposed to Bonds and McQuire posting late carreer achievements that made them look like they discovered the fountain of youth. He was as I said before consistent.
August 04, 2005 at 10:27PM View BBCode
Originally posted by lvnwrth
But being racist, while certainly reprehensible, was not against the law, or against the rules. All of baseball was racist when Cobb played. That's why we have a Negro Leagues Hall of Fame in Kansas City.
August 04, 2005 at 10:41PM View BBCode
They were against the law without a prescription and while you might not be able to walk up to your run of the mill GP and get a prescription, I'd bet that BALCO had a MD on staff that could write you one.August 04, 2005 at 10:53PM View BBCode
Especially when you add in the cost of house calls these days.August 04, 2005 at 10:53PM View BBCode
Raffy should not be in the HoF. His late career power numbers during the biggest power era in history exclude him in my opinion. Simply he is a cheater of the worst kind. Cheating by tampering with your gear does not come close to tampering with illegal drugs to get a edge on the playing field to my rather slow mind.August 04, 2005 at 11:14PM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
They were against the law without a prescription and while you might not be able to walk up to your run of the mill GP and get a prescription, I'd bet that BALCO had a MD on staff that could write you one.