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blakjakshalak
Then everyone began heaving the ball down field on every play. There was no reason to do anything else. Passer ratings averaged about 120. That wasn't right either so it got fixed.
Players were developing to the point where there were routinely red letter players on the waiver wire. That wasn't right so it got fixed.
Now it's conditioning. Does anyone make any attempt to develop players anymore? Imo, conditioning has a waaay outsized effect on player performance. As the game is right now there simply is no reason to bother trying to develop players. There is no advantage in it when you can take a roster full of mediocre players, keep them all on conditioning and sub them out at 90% and dominate doing it. If player development being a part of this game is desirable then something needs to be done to address this.
I understand that we're all competetive and we want to win. And it was brilliant whoever discovered this. But this is a beta league and our first priority is not to win but to find flaws in the game. Like the running problem and the passing problem and the player overdevelopment problem, something needs to be done about the conditioning problem.
Thoughts?
Something has to be done about conditioning
June 16, 2012 at 02:29AM View BBCode
When the sim first went live everyone discovered that all you had to do was run the ball relentlessly to win. Nothing else mattered. This wasn't right so it got fixed.Then everyone began heaving the ball down field on every play. There was no reason to do anything else. Passer ratings averaged about 120. That wasn't right either so it got fixed.
Players were developing to the point where there were routinely red letter players on the waiver wire. That wasn't right so it got fixed.
Now it's conditioning. Does anyone make any attempt to develop players anymore? Imo, conditioning has a waaay outsized effect on player performance. As the game is right now there simply is no reason to bother trying to develop players. There is no advantage in it when you can take a roster full of mediocre players, keep them all on conditioning and sub them out at 90% and dominate doing it. If player development being a part of this game is desirable then something needs to be done to address this.
I understand that we're all competetive and we want to win. And it was brilliant whoever discovered this. But this is a beta league and our first priority is not to win but to find flaws in the game. Like the running problem and the passing problem and the player overdevelopment problem, something needs to be done about the conditioning problem.
Thoughts?
casperthegm
So, while I think you're right, it's an issue if nobody is training on the other attributes because conditioning trumps all, when the issue is addressed I just don't want it to swing too far in the other direction- because conditioning is critical.
How to fix this issue- just off the top, one other football sim I played gave us a set number of training points to spread out among various attributes. You could put as much as you wanted on any of them but once reach like 20 points the payoff begins to diminish, so you'd be better off putting the points on other other attributes.
June 16, 2012 at 02:48AM View BBCode
You've got a point. The only time I train anything other than conditioning is during the preseason. And yes, during the games I set the depth charts to sub out liberally. The thing is, keeping fresh players on the field is a really big, and probably underestimated, part of real life football.So, while I think you're right, it's an issue if nobody is training on the other attributes because conditioning trumps all, when the issue is addressed I just don't want it to swing too far in the other direction- because conditioning is critical.
How to fix this issue- just off the top, one other football sim I played gave us a set number of training points to spread out among various attributes. You could put as much as you wanted on any of them but once reach like 20 points the payoff begins to diminish, so you'd be better off putting the points on other other attributes.
redcped
June 16, 2012 at 04:28AM View BBCode
So that's how Miami keeps winning with less talent ... I was curious.
tworoosters
I'm not sure if the teams that are winning consistently are all following the Miami model and as for this statement: this is a beta league and our first priority is not to win but to find flaws in the game that's exactly what using only conditioning is accomplishing, showing a flaw in the game.
June 16, 2012 at 06:35AM View BBCode
I train my players on things other than conditioning until they are about 26 or 27 then it's all conditioning, all the time because their chance of improvement above 27 is pretty small.I'm not sure if the teams that are winning consistently are all following the Miami model and as for this statement: this is a beta league and our first priority is not to win but to find flaws in the game that's exactly what using only conditioning is accomplishing, showing a flaw in the game.
blakjakshalak
You're right. Conditioning is very important in football and a well conditioned team should perform better. I like your idea of some sort of weighted approach where you can add conditioning points to specific players. Maybe it could be set up like they play calling strategy where you assign a number to each training option (C, F, S, W, etc..) that add up to 100%. I like that idea.
That wouldn't address the underlying issue though. Conditioning should never trump skill.
June 16, 2012 at 01:10PM View BBCode
@casper,You're right. Conditioning is very important in football and a well conditioned team should perform better. I like your idea of some sort of weighted approach where you can add conditioning points to specific players. Maybe it could be set up like they play calling strategy where you assign a number to each training option (C, F, S, W, etc..) that add up to 100%. I like that idea.
That wouldn't address the underlying issue though. Conditioning should never trump skill.
Admin
Conditioning itself really isn't the issue here, it's fatigue and fatigue substitution. The conditioning issue is more of a symptom, as most players who have good Attitudes and are not overused should be at least at 95% conditioning most of the time anyway.
Chris
June 16, 2012 at 05:39PM View BBCode
For one thing, I probably shouldn't even allow a Sub Out setting higher than 70%, or there needs to be some downside to constantly swapping out. On the other hand, this strategy rewards depth, which is a good thing.Conditioning itself really isn't the issue here, it's fatigue and fatigue substitution. The conditioning issue is more of a symptom, as most players who have good Attitudes and are not overused should be at least at 95% conditioning most of the time anyway.
Chris
blakjakshalak
Also, I have noticed that the advantage is less in the playoffs when everyone starts at 100% and fatigue affects the player only during the game. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start every game with all players at 100% (minus a penalty for specifics like age, injuries, etc...). In the NFL, it's a given that the players are in superior shape and ready to play on gameday. Let fatigue dictate what happens during the game.
June 16, 2012 at 06:04PM View BBCode
Simple solutions are always best. The 70% solution seems like a good idea. Allowing frequent substitutions rewards depth. But then limiting substitutions rewards player development. Balance between the two is ideal. Replacing players frequently would still be possible by setting the individual formation depth charts with different line ups. But there are proper limitations built in to that because a player has to have minimum ability to allow him to play at a given position.Also, I have noticed that the advantage is less in the playoffs when everyone starts at 100% and fatigue affects the player only during the game. It wouldn't be a bad idea to start every game with all players at 100% (minus a penalty for specifics like age, injuries, etc...). In the NFL, it's a given that the players are in superior shape and ready to play on gameday. Let fatigue dictate what happens during the game.
RichNYC1
I actually like that there is a dimension to attitude and I think itīs correct that bad guys seem to retire earlier then other guys, but week to week I think it should have less of a conditioning affect
I think active substitutions help the overall development of your team. I try to find role guys and use them in the spot that suits them best and it seems to work. For me having a deep team is the most important thing.
Chris mentioned a penalty for subbing out frequently, but I think it would be better to make Execution more important. To me EXE carries almost no weight when compared to the physical attributes allowing teams to draft high skilled, idiots as subs. They may have low overall ratings, but when you look at their position skills, they can play because EXE means so little. If we changed that substitutes would be much lessor players. In the NFL the physical difference between most players is not that great, but their ability to execute, make reads, use proper technique, etc, sets them apart
June 16, 2012 at 10:20PM View BBCode
If you dont condition bad attitude players all the time they cant get on the field for more than a few snaps a game so its conditioning or nothing.I actually like that there is a dimension to attitude and I think itīs correct that bad guys seem to retire earlier then other guys, but week to week I think it should have less of a conditioning affect
I think active substitutions help the overall development of your team. I try to find role guys and use them in the spot that suits them best and it seems to work. For me having a deep team is the most important thing.
Chris mentioned a penalty for subbing out frequently, but I think it would be better to make Execution more important. To me EXE carries almost no weight when compared to the physical attributes allowing teams to draft high skilled, idiots as subs. They may have low overall ratings, but when you look at their position skills, they can play because EXE means so little. If we changed that substitutes would be much lessor players. In the NFL the physical difference between most players is not that great, but their ability to execute, make reads, use proper technique, etc, sets them apart
EdSales87
I do the same thing in the Premium League. If they have high enough attitude then at 25/26/27/28 they swap over to Discipline. Most Subs are trained in something other than C as well, but rarely.
June 18, 2012 at 12:11AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
I train my players on things other than conditioning until they are about 26 or 27 then it's all conditioning, all the time because their chance of improvement above 27 is pretty small.
I do the same thing in the Premium League. If they have high enough attitude then at 25/26/27/28 they swap over to Discipline. Most Subs are trained in something other than C as well, but rarely.
Admin
Chris
[Edited on 6-19-2012 by Admin]
June 19, 2012 at 05:03AM View BBCode
I have reduced the likelihood of Attitude dropping your conditioning at least once so far. When the game was first released, drops were pretty much guaranteed week to week for poor Attitudes; now it's not as certain, but it may still be too high.Chris
[Edited on 6-19-2012 by Admin]
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