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happy
taking this into account. He had the 4 best seasons in the history of baseball taking all that into account, and he had above average defense AND running over the course of his career. You know who had worse defense and running skill than Barry Bonds? Babe Ruth.
general assholery is important i guess... if you... want to pretend like censored like that actually affects baseball.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
September 08, 2008 at 06:19AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Also not taking into account baserunning, defense
taking this into account. He had the 4 best seasons in the history of baseball taking all that into account, and he had above average defense AND running over the course of his career. You know who had worse defense and running skill than Barry Bonds? Babe Ruth.
general assholery is important i guess... if you... want to pretend like censored like that actually affects baseball.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
happy
The best baseball player of all time is [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/barnero01.shtml]Ross Barnes[/url].
greatest edge in SP-Warp of all time by season...
Year #1 Player SP-WARP #2 Player SP-WARP Edge
1871 Ross Barnes 10.96 Levi Meyerle 8.08 36%
1913 Walter Johnson 15.39 Eddie Collins 11.48 34%
1914 Walter Johnson 15.21 Eddie Collins 11.42 33%
1872 Ross Barnes 11.09 Davy Force 8.41 32%
1873 Ross Barnes 11.25 George Wright 8.56 31%
1874 Ross Barnes 10.83 Lip Pike 8.53 28%
1892 Amos Rusie 12.23 Kid Nichols 9.58 28%
1992 Barry Bonds 12.90 Roger Clemens 10.09 28%
1907 Honus Wagner 12.62 C. Mathewson 9.99 26%
1981 Mike Schmidt 11.60 Bobby Grich 9.22 26%
1893 Amos Rusie 14.04 Cy Young 11.22 25%
wow, oh my god, ross barnes is so good. and to think he isnt in the hall of fame.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
September 08, 2008 at 07:43AM View BBCode
oh, im sorry, lets make this conversation as utterly absurd as the football article by changing the topic to best player of all time.The best baseball player of all time is [url=http://www.baseball-reference.com/b/barnero01.shtml]Ross Barnes[/url].
greatest edge in SP-Warp of all time by season...
Year #1 Player SP-WARP #2 Player SP-WARP Edge
1871 Ross Barnes 10.96 Levi Meyerle 8.08 36%
1913 Walter Johnson 15.39 Eddie Collins 11.48 34%
1914 Walter Johnson 15.21 Eddie Collins 11.42 33%
1872 Ross Barnes 11.09 Davy Force 8.41 32%
1873 Ross Barnes 11.25 George Wright 8.56 31%
1874 Ross Barnes 10.83 Lip Pike 8.53 28%
1892 Amos Rusie 12.23 Kid Nichols 9.58 28%
1992 Barry Bonds 12.90 Roger Clemens 10.09 28%
1907 Honus Wagner 12.62 C. Mathewson 9.99 26%
1981 Mike Schmidt 11.60 Bobby Grich 9.22 26%
1893 Amos Rusie 14.04 Cy Young 11.22 25%
wow, oh my god, ross barnes is so good. and to think he isnt in the hall of fame.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
happy
best players between 1977 and 1983
1977-1983 Mike Schmidt
best players between 1984 and 1989
1984-1985 Cal Ripken
1986 Cal Ripken or Wade Boggs
1987-1988 Wade Boggs
1989 Wage Boggs or Roger Clemens
best players between 1990 and 2004...
1990 Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds
1991-1994 Barry Bonds
1995 Barry Bonds or Greg Maddux
1996-1998 Barry Bonds
1999 Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, or Pedro Martinez
2000-2001 Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez
2002 Barry Bonds
2003 Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez
2004 Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, or Albert Pujols
and... 2005-2007
2005-2007 Albert Pujols
so apparantly the only real options are Schmidt (early 80s), Boggs or Ripken (late 80s), Bonds (90s), or Pujols (current)...
unless you want to go with someone who wasnt ever really the best player in baseball for any sustained period of time, which would seem like a weak argument.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
September 08, 2008 at 07:50AM View BBCode
by the way (according to Nate Silver)best players between 1977 and 1983
1977-1983 Mike Schmidt
best players between 1984 and 1989
1984-1985 Cal Ripken
1986 Cal Ripken or Wade Boggs
1987-1988 Wade Boggs
1989 Wage Boggs or Roger Clemens
best players between 1990 and 2004...
1990 Roger Clemens or Barry Bonds
1991-1994 Barry Bonds
1995 Barry Bonds or Greg Maddux
1996-1998 Barry Bonds
1999 Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, or Pedro Martinez
2000-2001 Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez
2002 Barry Bonds
2003 Barry Bonds or Alex Rodriguez
2004 Barry Bonds, Alex Rodriguez, or Albert Pujols
and... 2005-2007
2005-2007 Albert Pujols
so apparantly the only real options are Schmidt (early 80s), Boggs or Ripken (late 80s), Bonds (90s), or Pujols (current)...
unless you want to go with someone who wasnt ever really the best player in baseball for any sustained period of time, which would seem like a weak argument.
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
barterer2002
September 08, 2008 at 11:23AM View BBCode
Should I point out that the National Association isn't generally considered major league baseball? (that would be all four of Ross Barnes' seasons there). Or should I just let it go as "Happy being Happy"
dirtdevil
this made me laugh.
September 08, 2008 at 02:28PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Bones2484
No love for David Eckstein?
this made me laugh.
FuriousGiorge
Dear Happy,
You are misusing my numbers to be a stand-in for rational thought. No one ever expected that some kid would take them to their extreme end-point and use the WARP-3 career leaders list as the absolute, no question about it endpoint for discussions about the best players of all time.
Sincerely,
Clay Davenport
September 08, 2008 at 02:28PM View BBCode
lol sabermetrics!Dear Happy,
You are misusing my numbers to be a stand-in for rational thought. No one ever expected that some kid would take them to their extreme end-point and use the WARP-3 career leaders list as the absolute, no question about it endpoint for discussions about the best players of all time.
Sincerely,
Clay Davenport
tm4559
how do you put a hitter like biggio on a list like this, and not puljos? are you kidding?
September 08, 2008 at 02:36PM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
In order for players who played their entire career after 1980 (so not Brett, Schmidt, etc)
Bonds
A-Rod
Clemens
Maddux
Johnson
Biggio
Griffey
Henderson
Raines
I. Rodriguez
how do you put a hitter like biggio on a list like this, and not puljos? are you kidding?
dirtdevil
i do have to ask though happy, just where are you getting you information about ruth's defence? i know you didn't see him play and they didn't have gold gloves back then to use that as a measuring stick.
September 08, 2008 at 02:38PM View BBCode
i have to partially agree with happy. before his usual nonsensical hyperbolic tangent, of course. bonds may have been one of the top two players all-time before he shot up. he played multiple gold glove defence, stole bases and won mvps by the wagon load. he's hardly the only guy to have his speed and defence deteriorate as he aged. nor is he the only all-time great who's a jackass. steve carlton and ty cobb still get to be part of the best pitcher/player of all-time arguments and ty cobb killed a guy. the fact that bonds had those 4 seasons after he shot up (for me) really impro ves his case. there's no dispute he had those seasons after all. now if we want to talk about best non-enhanced player of all-time that's a different issue, although bonds still gets a lot of consideration in the argument too.i do have to ask though happy, just where are you getting you information about ruth's defence? i know you didn't see him play and they didn't have gold gloves back then to use that as a measuring stick.
tm4559
September 08, 2008 at 02:41PM View BBCode
ruth played right field. who cares about his defense? i don't even know if it was good or bad, i mean, seriously. who......cares?
FuriousGiorge
Bonds was a pretty good defender when he was young and clean, and then slowly became a train wreck. He was never the A+ defender that the Gold Gloves would have you believe. He had good speed but a lousy arm. He was a good baserunner, possibly even better than Willie Mays, but Mays has miles on Bonds in the defense department.
But this whole thing rests on leaving aside Bonds' steroid use and really, that's just stupid. It's part of his career. Without it, he doesn't have those 4 seasons. Without it, he's in the top 10 in the career statistics that Happy jacks off to, not top 2.
Ty Cobb never killed anyone.
September 08, 2008 at 02:53PM View BBCode
Because in the game of base ball, you have to play defense too.Bonds was a pretty good defender when he was young and clean, and then slowly became a train wreck. He was never the A+ defender that the Gold Gloves would have you believe. He had good speed but a lousy arm. He was a good baserunner, possibly even better than Willie Mays, but Mays has miles on Bonds in the defense department.
But this whole thing rests on leaving aside Bonds' steroid use and really, that's just stupid. It's part of his career. Without it, he doesn't have those 4 seasons. Without it, he's in the top 10 in the career statistics that Happy jacks off to, not top 2.
Ty Cobb never killed anyone.
tm4559
that's cool, i wasn't arguing really. obviously, you could be the worst butcher with the glove that ever lived, and they would still let you play as much as possible if you can hit like that. see barry bonds, for many, many years.
why do we (or bryan, at any rate) hate albert of the cardinals? just hasn't played enough yet? has kind of put up the best first seven seasons since, i don't know. lou gehrig or somebody?
September 08, 2008 at 03:00PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Because in the game of base ball, you have to play defense too.
that's cool, i wasn't arguing really. obviously, you could be the worst butcher with the glove that ever lived, and they would still let you play as much as possible if you can hit like that. see barry bonds, for many, many years.
why do we (or bryan, at any rate) hate albert of the cardinals? just hasn't played enough yet? has kind of put up the best first seven seasons since, i don't know. lou gehrig or somebody?
tm4559
he lynched in his heart.
September 08, 2008 at 03:00PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Ty Cobb never killed anyone.
he lynched in his heart.
dirtdevil
i would never, ever, even dream of arguing this.
i think 5 mvp awards, and a projection of 4 years of similar pre-roids stats gets him into the discussion of top 2 or 3. he would certainly have played those years either way, and if you through out his actual stats you sort of have to give him credit for some kind of projection based on his previous ones. to me, that's always been the real tragedy of bonds. he could have been the best all-time without the junk.
i suppose we coul say that ty cobb allegedly killed someone. just like bonds allegedly took steroids.
(he took them of course, don't mistake me)
September 08, 2008 at 03:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Mays has miles on Bonds in the defense department.
i would never, ever, even dream of arguing this.
But this whole thing rests on leaving aside Bonds' steroid use and really, that's just stupid. It's part of his career. Without it, he doesn't have those 4 seasons. Without it, he's in the top 10 in the career statistics that Happy jacks off to, not top 2.
i think 5 mvp awards, and a projection of 4 years of similar pre-roids stats gets him into the discussion of top 2 or 3. he would certainly have played those years either way, and if you through out his actual stats you sort of have to give him credit for some kind of projection based on his previous ones. to me, that's always been the real tragedy of bonds. he could have been the best all-time without the junk.
Ty Cobb never killed anyone.
i suppose we coul say that ty cobb allegedly killed someone. just like bonds allegedly took steroids.
(he took them of course, don't mistake me)
FuriousGiorge
September 08, 2008 at 03:06PM View BBCode
Except the whole story of Ty Cobb murdering someone has no evidence to back it up, circumstantial or otherwise. It's a simple fabrication.
dirtdevil
even allowing that's true (which it may well be i suppose) he was still, by all acounts a complete jerk. much like bonds, really.
September 08, 2008 at 03:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Except the whole story of Ty Cobb murdering someone has no evidence to back it up, circumstantial or otherwise. It's a simple fabrication.
even allowing that's true (which it may well be i suppose) he was still, by all acounts a complete jerk. much like bonds, really.
tm4559
some stuff i've read indicated he helped several players become much better hitters when they played with him. it seems he could be something of a mentor and teacher, if he had the notion.
September 08, 2008 at 03:14PM View BBCode
it is possible the cobb as complete jerk was a little overblown. possible.some stuff i've read indicated he helped several players become much better hitters when they played with him. it seems he could be something of a mentor and teacher, if he had the notion.
whiskybear
Where did you come up with five MVP awards? He won seven -- three as a clean power/speed freak and four more as a roided-up Godzilla.
September 08, 2008 at 04:01PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
i think 5 mvp awards, and a projection of 4 years of similar pre-roids stats gets him into the discussion of top 2 or 3. he would certainly have played those years either way, and if you through out his actual stats you sort of have to give him credit for some kind of projection based on his previous ones. to me, that's always been the real tragedy of bonds. he could have been the best all-time without the junk.
Where did you come up with five MVP awards? He won seven -- three as a clean power/speed freak and four more as a roided-up Godzilla.
happy
Ignoring the steroid usage (because it is unquantifiable), Bonds is the second best player of all time. And was better at defense and baserunning than ruth (according to BP).
-----------------
Barnes played for the National association of professional baseball players. Look, its obvious barnes isnt even close to the best baseball player despite dominating his era. Just like Hutson...
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
September 08, 2008 at 04:13PM View BBCode
Look, if you bring steroids in, there is no argument anymore, it just becomes stupidity.Ignoring the steroid usage (because it is unquantifiable), Bonds is the second best player of all time. And was better at defense and baserunning than ruth (according to BP).
-----------------
Barnes played for the National association of professional baseball players. Look, its obvious barnes isnt even close to the best baseball player despite dominating his era. Just like Hutson...
[Edited on 9-8-2008 by happy]
whiskybear
(I can't believe you're actually trying to rake up the Hutson argument. Let it go. Just let it go.)
September 08, 2008 at 04:15PM View BBCode
I batted .650 on my 8-year-old Little League team, and I am the best baseball player of my era.(I can't believe you're actually trying to rake up the Hutson argument. Let it go. Just let it go.)
FuriousGiorge
According to a single, career-total metric.
September 08, 2008 at 04:17PM View BBCode
Originally posted by happy
Ignoring the steroid usage (because it is unquantifiable), Bonds is the second best player of all time.
According to a single, career-total metric.
Hamilton2
September 08, 2008 at 04:34PM View BBCode
FG, for whom are you arguing in favor? I haven't been able to figure that out, or I forgot it, or I read over it. It seems that your argument against Bonds is "Happy says Bonds is 2nd best all-time. Therefore, false."
FuriousGiorge
September 08, 2008 at 04:37PM View BBCode
Mays. Mays is better than Bonds, even without discounting Bonds' 'roided up twilight years.
Hamilton2
(Also, the argument that Happy says yes, therefore no, contains no inherent fallacies, so I'm not debating you here, just wanted some clarification.)
According to the stats, Mays is not better. However, he also hit in an era that was pitcher-dominated, and Bonds played during one of the most hitter-friendly eras in baseball history.
And the numbers are close enough that I wouldn't be inclined to say one way or the other.
September 08, 2008 at 04:46PM View BBCode
OK then. Carry on.(Also, the argument that Happy says yes, therefore no, contains no inherent fallacies, so I'm not debating you here, just wanted some clarification.)
According to the stats, Mays is not better. However, he also hit in an era that was pitcher-dominated, and Bonds played during one of the most hitter-friendly eras in baseball history.
And the numbers are close enough that I wouldn't be inclined to say one way or the other.