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BKCUBS13
February 26, 2010 at 07:23AM View BBCode
sorry while i was making that list i guess a couple of names were mentioned, like lynn and bell
Tyles
God dammit. I think I mixed him up with Rod Carew.
February 26, 2010 at 07:25AM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
Originally posted by Tyles
Originally posted by Tyles
CThurman MunsonTed Simmons
1B Gil Hodges
2BLou WhitakerTony Oliva
3B Dick Allen
SSAlan TrammellBarry Larkin
LFFrank HowardAlbert Belle
CFKenny LoftonFred Lynn
RFDave ParkerFrank Howard
DH Fred McGriff
There, I cleaned it up considerably. Would like to not have facking Boston represented, but what can you do?
Tony Oliva never played 2B in the majors.
fail
God dammit. I think I mixed him up with Rod Carew.
Tyles
There. It never happened.
February 26, 2010 at 07:29AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
CThurman MunsonTed Simmons
1B Gil Hodges
2B Lou Whitaker
3B Dick Allen
SSAlan TrammellBarry Larkin
LFFrank HowardAlbert Belle
CFKenny LoftonFred Lynn
RFDave ParkerFrank Howard
DH Fred McGriff
There. It never happened.
shep1582
I couldn't think of a better utility guy than rojas. I'm more than willing to drop him.
Dickie Thon was a great baseball player. He got hit right below the cheekbone by Mike Torrez 5 games into the '84 season, and suffered severe damage to the eye socket and cheekbone. He was never the same, but he tried like h3ll. He was an all star the season before and had finished 7th in the MVP voting at age 25 (for a very bland Astros team). He was off to a good start, and was going to be the best SS in the NL for the next 10 years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thondi01.shtml
He'd hit 20 homers playing half his games in the Astrodome in 83, 16 were on the road. He truly missed out on greatness because of one pitch that got away from Torrez.
When I redo my list after everyone has their way with me, I'll have Jose Cruz, Cedeno and Jimmy Wynn in my OF. The dome was just a horrible place to hit.
February 26, 2010 at 07:35AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
So ... are you picking who were actually solid, borderline HOF candidates (like I did)? Or are you just picking people who suck but have funny names, like Dickie Thon and Cookie Rojas?
I couldn't think of a better utility guy than rojas. I'm more than willing to drop him.
Dickie Thon was a great baseball player. He got hit right below the cheekbone by Mike Torrez 5 games into the '84 season, and suffered severe damage to the eye socket and cheekbone. He was never the same, but he tried like h3ll. He was an all star the season before and had finished 7th in the MVP voting at age 25 (for a very bland Astros team). He was off to a good start, and was going to be the best SS in the NL for the next 10 years.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/players/t/thondi01.shtml
He'd hit 20 homers playing half his games in the Astrodome in 83, 16 were on the road. He truly missed out on greatness because of one pitch that got away from Torrez.
When I redo my list after everyone has their way with me, I'll have Jose Cruz, Cedeno and Jimmy Wynn in my OF. The dome was just a horrible place to hit.
Tyles
February 26, 2010 at 07:43AM View BBCode
I've seen his numbers, and you're putting way too much stock in a future that he never had. He had exactly one solid season to his credit before getting his face smashed in. That doesn't mean he could have been Honus Wagner.
shep1582
so there.
February 26, 2010 at 08:20AM View BBCode
I think it does. Bill James, does, too. "Solid" does not describe that season. In context, it was one of the 10 best seasons ever by a 25 year old SS. He would have been great, because he already was. Look through the SS's in 1983. He played on a mediocre team, in a non big market town, and finished 7th in the MVP. His stats were large, my friend. Compare him to Ozzie Smith that season. Or Trammell. Thon won the Silver Slugger in the NL. Ripken won it in the AL. He was the same age as Trammell and had more power. And he was a very good SS.so there.
dirtdevil
that's all well and good, but i wasn't aware the list was intended to be for guys who could have been great but weren't. there's no question that what bill doran actually accomplished on the field is inferior to a multitude of shortstops. fernandez, larkin, trammell have already been mentioned, but there's lots more. why don't you just list the astros all-time team and be done with it?
February 26, 2010 at 02:59PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
I think it does. Bill James, does, too. "Solid" does not describe that season. In context, it was one of the 10 best seasons ever by a 25 year old SS. He would have been great, because he already was. Look through the SS's in 1983. He played on a mediocre team, in a non big market town, and finished 7th in the MVP. His stats were large, my friend. Compare him to Ozzie Smith that season. Or Trammell. Thon won the Silver Slugger in the NL. Ripken won it in the AL. He was the same age as Trammell and had more power. And he was a very good SS.
so there.
that's all well and good, but i wasn't aware the list was intended to be for guys who could have been great but weren't. there's no question that what bill doran actually accomplished on the field is inferior to a multitude of shortstops. fernandez, larkin, trammell have already been mentioned, but there's lots more. why don't you just list the astros all-time team and be done with it?
shep1582
I made mine off the top of my head.
February 26, 2010 at 03:47PM View BBCode
make yer list, son.I made mine off the top of my head.
Tyles
Or it's a single-season anomaly that he hit 20 in '83, considering that he had 3 career home runs in 900 at-bats prior.
February 26, 2010 at 04:21PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
I think it does. Bill James, does, too. "Solid" does not describe that season. In context, it was one of the 10 best seasons ever by a 25 year old SS. He would have been great, because he already was. Look through the SS's in 1983. He played on a mediocre team, in a non big market town, and finished 7th in the MVP. His stats were large, my friend. Compare him to Ozzie Smith that season. Or Trammell. Thon won the Silver Slugger in the NL. Ripken won it in the AL. He was the same age as Trammell and had more power. And he was a very good SS.
so there.
Or it's a single-season anomaly that he hit 20 in '83, considering that he had 3 career home runs in 900 at-bats prior.
folifan19
February 26, 2010 at 04:27PM View BBCode
I think Larkin should be on the list of guys likely to make the HOF.
dirtdevil
RSP- Bert Blylevyn
LSP- Tommy John
LSP- Vida Blue
RSP- Luis Tiant
RSP- Eddie Cicotte
RSP- Dave Steib (this is my homer pick. he played on some poor teams early on, but he was a better pitcher than morris. check the numbers.)
RRP- Tom Henke
RRP- Lee Smith
LRP- Randy Myers
LRP- Dave Righetti
LRP- Sparky Lyle
C- Lance Parrish, Bob Boone
1B- Will Clark, Dick Allen
2B- Roberto Alomar, Lou Whitaker
3B- Ron Santo
SS- Tony Fernandez, Alan Trammel
LF- Tim Raines
CF- Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy
RF- Larry Walker, Dave Parker
DH- Edgar Martinez
February 26, 2010 at 04:40PM View BBCode
i guess if i'm going to criticize shep's list i should try and come up with one of my own. just for the record, i'm not considering active players or those who are not yet eligible for the hall. for my first crack:RSP- Bert Blylevyn
LSP- Tommy John
LSP- Vida Blue
RSP- Luis Tiant
RSP- Eddie Cicotte
RSP- Dave Steib (this is my homer pick. he played on some poor teams early on, but he was a better pitcher than morris. check the numbers.)
RRP- Tom Henke
RRP- Lee Smith
LRP- Randy Myers
LRP- Dave Righetti
LRP- Sparky Lyle
C- Lance Parrish, Bob Boone
1B- Will Clark, Dick Allen
2B- Roberto Alomar, Lou Whitaker
3B- Ron Santo
SS- Tony Fernandez, Alan Trammel
LF- Tim Raines
CF- Fred Lynn, Dale Murphy
RF- Larry Walker, Dave Parker
DH- Edgar Martinez
FuriousGiorge
February 26, 2010 at 04:40PM View BBCode
The problem, Sheppy, is that when you make a list that purports to be "best players not in the Hall" and then you pack it with underwhelming Astros, the whole thing ends up seeming transparently phony. It's hard to take your list seriously when you are genuinely suggesting that Dickie Thon is the best shortstop not in the Hall of Fame. If you want to make a list of "most talented players who had their careers derailed because of injury" then make that list, but don't mix that one with this one.
Tyles
February 26, 2010 at 04:43PM View BBCode
I would like to state for the record that I did not overlook Edgar Martinez, but rather did not consider players in their early years of eligibility for the Hall of Fame, with the exception of Barry Larkin, who is on my team because Alan Trammell sucks.
Tyles
February 26, 2010 at 04:44PM View BBCode
(Also, Deke, Tony Fernandez is a waaay bigger homer pick than Dave Stieb.)
barterer2002
February 26, 2010 at 04:59PM View BBCode
And of course Cicotte isn't eligible for the HOF. I suppose one could argue that a lifetime ban ends when one dies and that as a result the black sox are eligible again but that isn't the way its been interpreted.
FuriousGiorge
February 26, 2010 at 05:06PM View BBCode
Because it doesn't. Let's not pack this thing with crooks.
barterer2002
SP Charlie Ferguson
SP Bob Caruthers
SP Charlie Buffington
SP Bill Hutchinson
SP Jim McCormick
RP/1B/OF Dave Foutz
C Jack Clement
1B Dave Orr
2B Bobby Lowe
3B Arlie Lathum
SS Bill Dahlen
LF Tip O'Neill
CF George Van Haltran
RF Pete Browning
Bench
UT Hardy Richardson
OF Jake Stenzel
OF Tom Brown
2B Fred Dunlap
SS Herman Long
February 26, 2010 at 05:15PM View BBCode
Just to be a bit different I'll make a list of players who finished their careers before 1910. Admittedly most of the players in this era who should be in the HOF are but this would be my next grouping. Because of part of this I'm not limiting myself to the 10 year requirement.SP Charlie Ferguson
SP Bob Caruthers
SP Charlie Buffington
SP Bill Hutchinson
SP Jim McCormick
RP/1B/OF Dave Foutz
C Jack Clement
1B Dave Orr
2B Bobby Lowe
3B Arlie Lathum
SS Bill Dahlen
LF Tip O'Neill
CF George Van Haltran
RF Pete Browning
Bench
UT Hardy Richardson
OF Jake Stenzel
OF Tom Brown
2B Fred Dunlap
SS Herman Long
shep1582
I admit to being a homer. Thon woulda been great, though, Tyles. The season before when he hit 3 homers. he had 31 dbls and 10 triples. He had legit power.
Trammell has the lead, however, he WAS a great ballplayer, I concede the point.
I agree that Larkin will be a HOF'er.
good list, deke. I like Steib also, and he shoulda won the CY in '82.
I'll try to get benne to help me and we'll do a vote thing when everyone weighs in and we get a comprehensive list of 3-4 guys at each position. Should we make AL and NL lists?
No one's mentioned Bobby Murcer or Amos Otis. Or Hal McRae at DH.
February 26, 2010 at 05:17PM View BBCode
this is for fun giorge, make your list. we'll argue later.I admit to being a homer. Thon woulda been great, though, Tyles. The season before when he hit 3 homers. he had 31 dbls and 10 triples. He had legit power.
Trammell has the lead, however, he WAS a great ballplayer, I concede the point.
I agree that Larkin will be a HOF'er.
good list, deke. I like Steib also, and he shoulda won the CY in '82.
I'll try to get benne to help me and we'll do a vote thing when everyone weighs in and we get a comprehensive list of 3-4 guys at each position. Should we make AL and NL lists?
No one's mentioned Bobby Murcer or Amos Otis. Or Hal McRae at DH.
shep1582
I know nothing about that era other than what Bill James writes. He says Davis is the best player from that time that isn't in the HOF.
February 26, 2010 at 05:21PM View BBCode
Not George Davis, Bryan?I know nothing about that era other than what Bill James writes. He says Davis is the best player from that time that isn't in the HOF.
Tyles
February 26, 2010 at 05:23PM View BBCode
No one's mentioned them because they don't belong on the list. They played outfield or DH, and there are way too many borderline outfielders / first basemen / DHs ahead of them. Nobody's mentioned Bobby Bonds, either, and he's a mile ahead of those three.
Tyles
February 26, 2010 at 05:25PM View BBCode
(George Davis is in the Hall of Fame. When was that book published, anyway?)
shep1582
Murcer and Otis were better than Rice. Of course, everyone was...
February 26, 2010 at 05:26PM View BBCode
bonds definitely belongs in the discussion.Murcer and Otis were better than Rice. Of course, everyone was...
tm4559
oh man, frank howard.
(did you see frank howard's numbers in 1968, when the rest of baseball could not hit at all? the high rubber just didn't bother him, did it? that is truly crazy.)
February 26, 2010 at 05:27PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Dave Parker's in my lineup because I couldn't take Tim Raines. You want me to do it over, I take Raines at LF and shift Frank Howard over to right.
oh man, frank howard.
(did you see frank howard's numbers in 1968, when the rest of baseball could not hit at all? the high rubber just didn't bother him, did it? that is truly crazy.)
FuriousGiorge
Ha. This is where the "appeal to authority" shows its weakness.
February 26, 2010 at 05:28PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
(George Davis is in the Hall of Fame. When was that book published, anyway?)
Ha. This is where the "appeal to authority" shows its weakness.