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thatrogue
(Except Pedrioia. That guy could win an MVP playing for the Mets and I'd still root against him.)
((On the baseball field, of course. I have nothing against him personally, and wish him much success in life...away from the game, that is. Unless of course he runs for public office))
Just do like I do...
July 06, 2012 at 08:11PM View BBCode
Despise everything in the Red Sox organization...but give them a fair shake if/when they leave for another team.(Except Pedrioia. That guy could win an MVP playing for the Mets and I'd still root against him.)
((On the baseball field, of course. I have nothing against him personally, and wish him much success in life...away from the game, that is. Unless of course he runs for public office))
jjmarsh17
Theo isn't hated. Like I said he'd receive a huge ovation when he comes back to Fenway.
My point about Tito is he got a raw deal. He got fired and almost black balled with the painkiller talk while theo got a huge promotion, huge new contract and a fresh start. In the blame pie the players are number one by a large margin, I thought that went without saying, theo is number two and Tito is a distant third with the owners barely registering at 4.
Managers always get too much blame and too much credit but Tito was A great manager. All we need to do is look at his predecessor grady gump to realize that occasionally managers can really f things up
July 06, 2012 at 08:14PM View BBCode
Not really. Happens all the time. Also, the scouts are totally different for amateurs compared to minor and major league.Theo isn't hated. Like I said he'd receive a huge ovation when he comes back to Fenway.
My point about Tito is he got a raw deal. He got fired and almost black balled with the painkiller talk while theo got a huge promotion, huge new contract and a fresh start. In the blame pie the players are number one by a large margin, I thought that went without saying, theo is number two and Tito is a distant third with the owners barely registering at 4.
Managers always get too much blame and too much credit but Tito was A great manager. All we need to do is look at his predecessor grady gump to realize that occasionally managers can really f things up
tworoosters
Except of course Theo won two rings, Billy has won shit and none of his MFCS college picks have done much of anything. Beane's famous 2002 draft ended up being one of the least productive imaginable, the A's had seven picks in the first 39 and ended up with Nick Swisher, Joe Blanton, Mark Teahen and four guys who never did anything.
We all know the baseball ammy is a big crap shoot and while Swisher, #16, was a decent pick and I guess you could argue Blanton, #24, was as well but if Beane had drafted high school pitchers in those two spots he could have had Cole Hamels, taken 17th, and Matt Cain, taken 25th.
Even if Beane had stuck with his "college only" plan he could have used one of the later first round picks on an outfielder out of University of Illinois-Chicago named Curtis Granderson or a 2B from St. John's River State, Howie Kendrick taken #294.
Had he used those later picks on high schoolers he could've had Joey Votto, #44, John Lester, #57, Brian McCann, #64 and Josh Johnson, #113.
So let's toss out Kendrick, as an outlier, and see what the genius could have done with seven first round picks in the 2002 draft.
What Billy drafted:
Swisher
Blanton
John McCurdy
Ben Fritz
the legendary Jeremy Brown
Steve Obenchain
Teahen
major league totals : 6854 at bats, 264 home runs, zero pitching
What Billy could have had:
Hamels
Cain
Granderson
McCann
Votto
Lester
Johnson
major league totals - 9757 at bats, 469 homers, 297 wins
Yeah Billy's a freakin' genius.
July 06, 2012 at 08:16PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559
ironic isn't it? all they had to give for billy bean was yukelis, instead, they got theo, JD Drew, John Lacky, millions on millions for crawford, paid yukelis off and traded him for junk, and missed out on all them awesomes walk drawers from college ball that cannot actually hit, and they could have been the Moneyball sequel. its hard to tell who came on top really. certainly the movie going public missed out. and the Sox inflicted the turdsome dustin pedroierr on the world.
Except of course Theo won two rings, Billy has won shit and none of his MFCS college picks have done much of anything. Beane's famous 2002 draft ended up being one of the least productive imaginable, the A's had seven picks in the first 39 and ended up with Nick Swisher, Joe Blanton, Mark Teahen and four guys who never did anything.
We all know the baseball ammy is a big crap shoot and while Swisher, #16, was a decent pick and I guess you could argue Blanton, #24, was as well but if Beane had drafted high school pitchers in those two spots he could have had Cole Hamels, taken 17th, and Matt Cain, taken 25th.
Even if Beane had stuck with his "college only" plan he could have used one of the later first round picks on an outfielder out of University of Illinois-Chicago named Curtis Granderson or a 2B from St. John's River State, Howie Kendrick taken #294.
Had he used those later picks on high schoolers he could've had Joey Votto, #44, John Lester, #57, Brian McCann, #64 and Josh Johnson, #113.
So let's toss out Kendrick, as an outlier, and see what the genius could have done with seven first round picks in the 2002 draft.
What Billy drafted:
Swisher
Blanton
John McCurdy
Ben Fritz
the legendary Jeremy Brown
Steve Obenchain
Teahen
major league totals : 6854 at bats, 264 home runs, zero pitching
What Billy could have had:
Hamels
Cain
Granderson
McCann
Votto
Lester
Johnson
major league totals - 9757 at bats, 469 homers, 297 wins
Yeah Billy's a freakin' genius.
jjmarsh17
I thought Tim was joking. But regardless your point about billy is a good one. The a's are a disaster. Although they just swept the sox with coco jj reddick and bmoss dominating. Haha.
The one thing I took away from moneyball which I agree with is look for things that other teams undervalue and stock up on it. For awhile it was obp and college players then it was plus defensive players then it was back to high school hitters. It's a reasonable strategy for a small mArket team. That said if you continually select scrubs it doesn't matter what your philosophy is.
July 06, 2012 at 08:24PM View BBCode
Hey man. He has his daughter to worry about.I thought Tim was joking. But regardless your point about billy is a good one. The a's are a disaster. Although they just swept the sox with coco jj reddick and bmoss dominating. Haha.
The one thing I took away from moneyball which I agree with is look for things that other teams undervalue and stock up on it. For awhile it was obp and college players then it was plus defensive players then it was back to high school hitters. It's a reasonable strategy for a small mArket team. That said if you continually select scrubs it doesn't matter what your philosophy is.
tm4559
July 06, 2012 at 08:46PM View BBCode
i was being ironical yes. rooster is trying to mess with me now, he loves irony most of all. we all hearts the beane and we don't think he believed most of that guff in that book. the problem with the guy that wrote the book was, he got carried away with small samples. small numbers are dumb.
tm4559
*giggle*
July 06, 2012 at 08:48PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Swisher
Blanton
John McCurdy
Ben Fritz
the legendary Jeremy Brown
Steve Obenchain
Teahen
*giggle*
jjmarsh17
haha how can you not love the freaking laser show?
I can see how people outside of Boston hate him, but I always love the guy. I guess there must be people in chicago who love aj pierzynski, although comparing pedoria to him does pedoria a disservice. I would think you have to at least respect him, 5 foot nothing, plays hard everyday, a complete ahole that I can't deny.
July 06, 2012 at 08:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by thatrogue
Despise everything in the Red Sox organization...but give them a fair shake if/when they leave for another team.
(Except Pedrioia. That guy could win an MVP playing for the Mets and I'd still root against him.)
((On the baseball field, of course. I have nothing against him personally, and wish him much success in life...away from the game, that is. Unless of course he runs for public office))
haha how can you not love the freaking laser show?
I can see how people outside of Boston hate him, but I always love the guy. I guess there must be people in chicago who love aj pierzynski, although comparing pedoria to him does pedoria a disservice. I would think you have to at least respect him, 5 foot nothing, plays hard everyday, a complete ahole that I can't deny.
tm4559
rooster, these guys just don't take enough walks.
July 06, 2012 at 08:50PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
What Billy could have had:
Hamels
Cain
Granderson
McCann
Votto
Lester
Johnson
major league totals - 9757 at bats, 469 homers, 297 wins
rooster, these guys just don't take enough walks.
tm4559
you have to excuse darens. he is a mets fan, and caucasian pygmies never pan out for the mets.
July 06, 2012 at 08:51PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Originally posted by thatrogue
Despise everything in the Red Sox organization...but give them a fair shake if/when they leave for another team.
(Except Pedrioia. That guy could win an MVP playing for the Mets and I'd still root against him.)
((On the baseball field, of course. I have nothing against him personally, and wish him much success in life...away from the game, that is. Unless of course he runs for public office))
haha how can you not love the freaking laser show?
I can see how people outside of Boston hate him, but I always love the guy. I guess there must be people in chicago who love aj pierzynski, although comparing pedoria to him does pedoria a disservice. I would think you have to at least respect him, 5 foot nothing, plays hard everyday, a complete ahole that I can't deny.
you have to excuse darens. he is a mets fan, and caucasian pygmies never pan out for the mets.
tworoosters
It's fine to look for things that other teams undervalue but those things have to actually have some value, otherwise you end up wasting 1st round picks and your team misses the post season eight of the past nine years, assuming they miss this year, which they will.
The one thing I took from the book was that Beane was an enormous asshat with an ego the size of the foul area in Oakland Coliseum.
July 06, 2012 at 08:52PM View BBCode
Of course I knew tm was being ironic, I just love to bash billy the brain any chance I get.It's fine to look for things that other teams undervalue but those things have to actually have some value, otherwise you end up wasting 1st round picks and your team misses the post season eight of the past nine years, assuming they miss this year, which they will.
The one thing I took from the book was that Beane was an enormous asshat with an ego the size of the foul area in Oakland Coliseum.
jjmarsh17
pedroia
It's pronounced 'nucular'. Nucular
July 06, 2012 at 08:54PM View BBCode
haha the number of spelling mistakes for guys last names in this thread is truly amazing (I'm guilty as anyone)pedroia
It's pronounced 'nucular'. Nucular
tm4559
July 06, 2012 at 08:59PM View BBCode
man, joe blanton. its the perfect turd, i mean, there can't be a better real life example of a low a- pile of disgusting worthlessness than that thing.
jjmarsh17
July 06, 2012 at 09:11PM View BBCode
yeah how blanton turned 10 seasons with a total 9.6 WAR, that's less than one a year for those scoring at home, 80-69 4.39 era in to 'Career to date (may be incomplete) $23,698,500 Does not include future salaries'... god it pays to be a SP
tworoosters
Yeah, it's a seriously incomplete, Blanton is on the last year of a three year $24,000,000 deal and he made about $9 million in 2008-09 so he's in the $35M + range and still only 31 years old.
July 06, 2012 at 09:29PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
yeah how blanton turned 10 seasons with a total 9.6 WAR, that's less than one a year for those scoring at home, 80-69 4.39 era in to 'Career to date (may be incomplete) $23,698,500
Yeah, it's a seriously incomplete, Blanton is on the last year of a three year $24,000,000 deal and he made about $9 million in 2008-09 so he's in the $35M + range and still only 31 years old.
thatrogue
(Pedroia...what an annoyance. I know he got hurt, but Carlos Quentin was robbed of the 2008 AL MVP.)
July 06, 2012 at 09:38PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tm4559Funny...I'd equate Blanton as B VEL/A- CTRL, B+ overall SP with A+ health and B+ END.
man, joe blanton. its the perfect turd, i mean, there can't be a better real life example of a low a- pile of disgusting worthlessness than that thing.
(Pedroia...what an annoyance. I know he got hurt, but Carlos Quentin was robbed of the 2008 AL MVP.)
dirtdevil
you can't have it both ways. either theo is responsible for evaluating the players, in which case he's responsible for evaluating all the players, or the socuts are responsible for evaluating the players, in which case you don't get to blame it on theo. look, no one is saying that theo is perfect. some of his moves have blown up pretty good. but that hardly makes him unique (as the yankees about pre-sabathia free agent pitcher signings sometime) and it doesn't mean he "sucks". it's easy to sit in the cheap seats and pan free agent moves that didn't work out. but you can only do that with any amount of credibility if you also pan them when they're made. most of the FA deals you're castigating theo for he was to some degree lauded for (or at least had criticism confined to "the rich teams are ruining the game" stuff) at the time. criticizing him retroactively is kind of dishonest.
July 07, 2012 at 01:29PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Not really. Happens all the time. Also, the scouts are totally different for amateurs compared to minor and major league.
you can't have it both ways. either theo is responsible for evaluating the players, in which case he's responsible for evaluating all the players, or the socuts are responsible for evaluating the players, in which case you don't get to blame it on theo. look, no one is saying that theo is perfect. some of his moves have blown up pretty good. but that hardly makes him unique (as the yankees about pre-sabathia free agent pitcher signings sometime) and it doesn't mean he "sucks". it's easy to sit in the cheap seats and pan free agent moves that didn't work out. but you can only do that with any amount of credibility if you also pan them when they're made. most of the FA deals you're castigating theo for he was to some degree lauded for (or at least had criticism confined to "the rich teams are ruining the game" stuff) at the time. criticizing him retroactively is kind of dishonest.
tm4559
high b+, low a-, same thing. everybody pays for the low a-, so they use them, so they seem better than the b+ pitchers on the waiver wire. but they're actually almost the same thing.
July 07, 2012 at 03:59PM View BBCode
Originally posted by thatrogue
Originally posted by tm4559Funny...I'd equate Blanton as B VEL/A- CTRL, B+ overall SP with A+ health and B+ END.
man, joe blanton. its the perfect turd, i mean, there can't be a better real life example of a low a- pile of disgusting worthlessness than that thing.
high b+, low a-, same thing. everybody pays for the low a-, so they use them, so they seem better than the b+ pitchers on the waiver wire. but they're actually almost the same thing.
jjmarsh17
wow, you are really one for putting words in peoples mouths. never did i say he sucks. never did i say he was a moron. where are you getting this from?? are you referring to people in boston?
theo has the ultimate last word so he gets credit and blame. you were confused as to why evaluation of amateurs might be different to mlb players. he hires those scouts and directors of scouting and all that crap so ultimately it's on him but they are different people and different aspects of the job and the game, therefore they can be evaluated separately.
it's really quite simple. he has a poor track record of signing high priced free agents, i'm not sure how you can argue this or why you would. facts are facts.
i was critical of many of those signings at the time, espeically lackey and crawford, but it really doesnt matter they didnt work. of course no one has 100% track record and no one expects one, but a pretty large sample size, 10ish years, gives us something to look at. this doesnt make me fickle, or boston fans (in this case) it's objective evaluation of a situation. i also criticize him for sitting in chicago and claiming the owners made him sign those bums.
he even admits this himself
?I think so. In 10 years, you?re going to have misses. I do think this. I think taking a step back, if you take a look at what our baseball group was best at, we were best at drafting and developing young talent and finding some undervalued players. I think we were the best drafting team of the decade and all that. That?s a very patient, organic approach. Pure . . .(totally agree, see he separates the aspects of the job)
?recognizing that there was an inherent tension between that approach and bigger business. I kind of kick myself for letting my guard down and giving into it, because that might be a better team in some ways and resonate more with the fans than what we ended up with" ( and this is what i call bs on him about)
http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-14/sports/32218489_1_red-sox-dustin-pedroia-jacoby-ellsbury/5
July 07, 2012 at 04:42PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Not really. Happens all the time. Also, the scouts are totally different for amateurs compared to minor and major league.
you can't have it both ways. either theo is responsible for evaluating the players, in which case he's responsible for evaluating all the players, or the socuts are responsible for evaluating the players, in which case you don't get to blame it on theo. look, no one is saying that theo is perfect. some of his moves have blown up pretty good. but that hardly makes him unique (as the yankees about pre-sabathia free agent pitcher signings sometime) and it doesn't mean he "sucks". it's easy to sit in the cheap seats and pan free agent moves that didn't work out. but you can only do that with any amount of credibility if you also pan them when they're made. most of the FA deals you're castigating theo for he was to some degree lauded for (or at least had criticism confined to "the rich teams are ruining the game" stuff) at the time. criticizing him retroactively is kind of dishonest.
wow, you are really one for putting words in peoples mouths. never did i say he sucks. never did i say he was a moron. where are you getting this from?? are you referring to people in boston?
theo has the ultimate last word so he gets credit and blame. you were confused as to why evaluation of amateurs might be different to mlb players. he hires those scouts and directors of scouting and all that crap so ultimately it's on him but they are different people and different aspects of the job and the game, therefore they can be evaluated separately.
it's really quite simple. he has a poor track record of signing high priced free agents, i'm not sure how you can argue this or why you would. facts are facts.
i was critical of many of those signings at the time, espeically lackey and crawford, but it really doesnt matter they didnt work. of course no one has 100% track record and no one expects one, but a pretty large sample size, 10ish years, gives us something to look at. this doesnt make me fickle, or boston fans (in this case) it's objective evaluation of a situation. i also criticize him for sitting in chicago and claiming the owners made him sign those bums.
he even admits this himself
?I think so. In 10 years, you?re going to have misses. I do think this. I think taking a step back, if you take a look at what our baseball group was best at, we were best at drafting and developing young talent and finding some undervalued players. I think we were the best drafting team of the decade and all that. That?s a very patient, organic approach. Pure . . .(totally agree, see he separates the aspects of the job)
?recognizing that there was an inherent tension between that approach and bigger business. I kind of kick myself for letting my guard down and giving into it, because that might be a better team in some ways and resonate more with the fans than what we ended up with" ( and this is what i call bs on him about)
http://articles.boston.com/2012-06-14/sports/32218489_1_red-sox-dustin-pedroia-jacoby-ellsbury/5
dirtdevil
ahem.
July 07, 2012 at 04:58PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Not really. Happens all the time. Also, the scouts are totally different for amateurs compared to minor and major league.
you can't have it both ways. either theo is responsible for evaluating the players, in which case he's responsible for evaluating all the players, or the socuts are responsible for evaluating the players, in which case you don't get to blame it on theo. look, no one is saying that theo is perfect. some of his moves have blown up pretty good. but that hardly makes him unique (as the yankees about pre-sabathia free agent pitcher signings sometime) and it doesn't mean he "sucks". it's easy to sit in the cheap seats and pan free agent moves that didn't work out. but you can only do that with any amount of credibility if you also pan them when they're made. most of the FA deals you're castigating theo for he was to some degree lauded for (or at least had criticism confined to "the rich teams are ruining the game" stuff) at the time. criticizing him retroactively is kind of dishonest.
wow, you are really one for putting words in peoples mouths. never did i say he sucks.
ahem.
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
true dat. more specifically their chicken loving SP and previous gm suck too much.
jjmarsh17
July 07, 2012 at 05:38PM View BBCode
Obviuousy in jest. Read the rest of the thread for clarification.
dirtdevil
i'm not arguing that at all. what i'm saying is that you can't just cherry pick the unsuccessful FA signings and conclude that he sucks. you have to look at the entire picture, which (for player evaluation) includes guys they drafted and traded for as well FA signings (ortiz, foulke, mueller, drew, beltre) that did work out. when you look objectively at the entire body of work, which includes constructing two world series champions for a franchise that was synomous with epic fail before his arrival, i don't see any objective way to conclude that he isn't one of the top GMs in the business. so yeah, fickle.
i mean, look at this list of FA busts:
kyle farnsworth
kenny lofton
jose contreras
jaret wright
hideki arabu
aj burnett
sidney ponson
carl pavano
kei igawa
kind of makes you wonder why brian cashman still has a job, doesn't it?
July 07, 2012 at 05:51PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
he has a poor track record of signing high priced free agents, i'm not sure how you can argue this or why you would. facts are facts.
i'm not arguing that at all. what i'm saying is that you can't just cherry pick the unsuccessful FA signings and conclude that he sucks. you have to look at the entire picture, which (for player evaluation) includes guys they drafted and traded for as well FA signings (ortiz, foulke, mueller, drew, beltre) that did work out. when you look objectively at the entire body of work, which includes constructing two world series champions for a franchise that was synomous with epic fail before his arrival, i don't see any objective way to conclude that he isn't one of the top GMs in the business. so yeah, fickle.
i mean, look at this list of FA busts:
kyle farnsworth
kenny lofton
jose contreras
jaret wright
hideki arabu
aj burnett
sidney ponson
carl pavano
kei igawa
kind of makes you wonder why brian cashman still has a job, doesn't it?
dirtdevil
oh, so first i'm a great one for putting words in your mouth because you didn't say it and now you said it but you were joking?
do you mean the rest of the thread where you try to defend (or at least explain) that position?
July 07, 2012 at 05:56PM View BBCode
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Obviuousy in jest.
oh, so first i'm a great one for putting words in your mouth because you didn't say it and now you said it but you were joking?
Read the rest of the thread for clarification.
do you mean the rest of the thread where you try to defend (or at least explain) that position?
jjmarsh17
July 07, 2012 at 06:02PM View BBCode
Haha. I like how we have drew on both the successful and unsuccessful moves. Very fitting. Overall I agree he is top 5 gm. When you add up the years and total dollars of my list it dwarfs yours and that has to be factored in. If I had more time right now id do it, curious to what it would be. I still don't understand or agree with the fickle thing. I agree overall he is a really good gm, his tenure in Boston was a success but he has a weakness which even he admits to. That's all. If I was starting a team he'd probably be my third choice behind friedman and daniels, but I'd put him on a strict budget. Ironically I think that is what made him leave. Evil Larry.
jjmarsh17
Hehe. Even theo agrees with me. Different parts of the game can be evaluated separately. Sorry you lose on that one although I don't expect to admit it. You will harp on the suck joke now.
July 07, 2012 at 06:04PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by jjmarsh17
Obviuousy in jest.
oh, so first i'm a great one for putting words in your mouth because you didn't say it and now you said it but you were joking?
Read the rest of the thread for clarification.
do you mean the rest of the thread where you try to defend (or at least explain) that position?
Hehe. Even theo agrees with me. Different parts of the game can be evaluated separately. Sorry you lose on that one although I don't expect to admit it. You will harp on the suck joke now.