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WillyD
Actually the league he was talking about was my Dynasty league team, which actually has a .583 winning pct. And that is my best winning pct. among all my leagues.
December 24, 2013 at 01:01AM View BBCode
Originally posted by blumer5
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
I don't know how to say this without bothering anyone, so I'm sorry, but it still seems worth pointing out that your current record in a league you consider to have no difficulty is 44-69....
That would be what we call a troll comment. I dont think pointing about 1 season, in what will be his 60th season in the league, is worth mentioning. .550 winning percentage over 59 seasons would be worth pointing out.
I dont think he ever even said that he was good, just merely pointed out that he would consider it a tough league and reference how many championships were held by owners in that league.
[Edited on 12-23-2013 by blumer5]
Actually the league he was talking about was my Dynasty league team, which actually has a .583 winning pct. And that is my best winning pct. among all my leagues.
dirtdevil
nope, sorry. dynasty.
nope, sorry. dynasty again. maybe you're not aware that all speed league were not created in the same way though?
nope, sorry. one league doesn't debunk anything. not unless you desperately want it to be true, anyway.
no one is saying that experience always equals strength or that every speed league s better than every dynasty one. but experience is more likely to bring strength more often than inexperience.
no it can't. you also can't trumpet the quality of dynasty leagues by saying my one league is awesome and i'm smart. neither of which changes the fact that dynasty leagues (in general, not in the specific) do have weaker competition. seriously, you have to have noticed that most of the people telling you that dynasty leagues are easier have spend large periods of time in both and those insisting dynasty leagues are not easier haven't, right?
unfortunately, that's not true. many speed leagues (most?) started out as private leagues. they play more games per day, more seasons per year, often have specialized rules and were most often started by a group of already experienced owners to compete against each other. they often have password protected signups and so get to select who joins. dynasty plays 3 games per day and takes whoever signs up. more game per day means more season, which means more experience. in general more experienced owners will be better than less experience owners.
they are a crapshoot. this is because of the small sample size involved. the better team is far less likely to win a 7-game series than a 162-game season. this is not refutable. the better team in the playoffs is still more likely to win than the inferior one, just not as much more likely as they are to have a better regular season record. ergo, crapshoot.
[Edited on 12-24-2013 by dirtdevil]
December 24, 2013 at 04:26AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
--Dynasty leagues only have about 9 active owners. (probably thinking of trial leagues)
nope, sorry. dynasty.
--Dynasty leagues use a talent-diluting expansion draft. (probably thinking of speed leagues)
nope, sorry. dynasty again. maybe you're not aware that all speed league were not created in the same way though?
--Dynasty leagues have too much owner turnover. (debunked by the Mantle League having 14 of the same owners for over 2.5 years)
nope, sorry. one league doesn't debunk anything. not unless you desperately want it to be true, anyway.
--Speed leagues have more experienced owners. (This might be true as a general statement, and if so, is probably the best point you guys have raised so far. But experience does not always equal strength, and probability demands that there's at least one dynasty league out there with more experience than at least one speed league.)
no one is saying that experience always equals strength or that every speed league s better than every dynasty one. but experience is more likely to bring strength more often than inexperience.
--Dynasty league competition is weak. (This is your argument, it can't also be the evidence.)
no it can't. you also can't trumpet the quality of dynasty leagues by saying my one league is awesome and i'm smart. neither of which changes the fact that dynasty leagues (in general, not in the specific) do have weaker competition. seriously, you have to have noticed that most of the people telling you that dynasty leagues are easier have spend large periods of time in both and those insisting dynasty leagues are not easier haven't, right?
There's nothing inherent about a dynasty league that would make it weak; there's nothing inherent about a speed league that would make it strong.
unfortunately, that's not true. many speed leagues (most?) started out as private leagues. they play more games per day, more seasons per year, often have specialized rules and were most often started by a group of already experienced owners to compete against each other. they often have password protected signups and so get to select who joins. dynasty plays 3 games per day and takes whoever signs up. more game per day means more season, which means more experience. in general more experienced owners will be better than less experience owners.
Stay tuned for next week's episode of Sim Dynasty Mythbusters: The Playoffs are a Crapshoot
(Sneak preview, the first line of defense will be "because they are")
they are a crapshoot. this is because of the small sample size involved. the better team is far less likely to win a 7-game series than a 162-game season. this is not refutable. the better team in the playoffs is still more likely to win than the inferior one, just not as much more likely as they are to have a better regular season record. ergo, crapshoot.
[Edited on 12-24-2013 by dirtdevil]
blumer5
Dirt, you are insane. You continue to use logical arguments in an illogically charged discussion.
December 24, 2013 at 04:35AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
--Dynasty leagues only have about 9 active owners. (probably thinking of trial leagues)
nope, sorry. dynasty.
--Dynasty leagues use a talent-diluting expansion draft. (probably thinking of speed leagues)
nope, sorry. dynasty again. maybe you're not aware that all speed league were not created in the same way though?
--Dynasty leagues have too much owner turnover. (debunked by the Mantle League having 14 of the same owners for over 2.5 years)
nope, sorry. one league doesn't debunk anything. not unless you desperately want it to be true, anyway.
--Speed leagues have more experienced owners. (This might be true as a general statement, and if so, is probably the best point you guys have raised so far. But experience does not always equal strength, and probability demands that there's at least one dynasty league out there with more experience than at least one speed league.)
no one is saying that experience always equals strength or that every speed league s better than every dynasty one. but experience is more likely to bring strength more often than inexperience.
--Dynasty league competition is weak. (This is your argument, it can't also be the evidence.)
no it can't. you also can't trumpet the quality of dynasty leagues by saying my one league is awesome and i'm smart. neither of which changes the fact that dynasty leagues (in general, not in the specific) do have weaker competition. seriously, you have to have noticed that most of the people telling you that dynasty leagues are easier have spend large periods of time in both and those insisting dynasty leagues are not easier haven't, right?
There's nothing inherent about a dynasty league that would make it weak; there's nothing inherent about a speed league that would make it strong.
unfortunately, that's not true. many speed leagues (most?) started out as private leagues. they play more games per day, more seasons per year, often have specialized rules and were most often started by a group of already experienced owners to compete against each other. they often have password protected signups and so get to select who joins. dynasty plays 3 games per day and takes whoever signs up. more game per day means more season, which means more experience. in general more experienced owners will be better than less experience owners.
Stay tuned for next week's episode of Sim Dynasty Mythbusters: The Playoffs are a Crapshoot
(Sneak preview, the first line of defense will be "because they are")
they are a crapshoot. this is because of the small sample size involved. the better team is far less likely to win a 7-game series than a 162-game season. this is not refutable. the better team in the playoffs is still more likely to win than the inferior one, just not as much more likely as they are to have a better regular season record. ergo, crapshoot.
[Edited on 12-24-2013 by dirtdevil]
Dirt, you are insane. You continue to use logical arguments in an illogically charged discussion.
paulcaraccio
All the specialized rules of speed leagues don't make them harder - everyone in the league plays by the same rules. Do you guys think that people who play in dynasty leagues are so inferior that they can't learn rules like you can? They make the league different, not harder.
I am the only one who is not saying I'm right because "my league is awesome and I'm smart", that's like, everybody else besides me. I used the Mantle League to disprove some theories with facts, that's all. The Mantle League does happen to be awesome, but that's not relevant to anything going on here. And I'm not like, that smart.
blumer, i googled "trolling comment" and it is not a synonym for "fact", just FYI.
December 24, 2013 at 10:39PM View BBCode
dude, dynasty leagues do not have expansion drafts. and you clearly don't know the meaning of "crapshoot", if you think it means the "better team is still more likely to win". (which is obviously the truth...Mythbusted, thanks)All the specialized rules of speed leagues don't make them harder - everyone in the league plays by the same rules. Do you guys think that people who play in dynasty leagues are so inferior that they can't learn rules like you can? They make the league different, not harder.
I am the only one who is not saying I'm right because "my league is awesome and I'm smart", that's like, everybody else besides me. I used the Mantle League to disprove some theories with facts, that's all. The Mantle League does happen to be awesome, but that's not relevant to anything going on here. And I'm not like, that smart.
blumer, i googled "trolling comment" and it is not a synonym for "fact", just FYI.
dirtdevil
December 25, 2013 at 02:04AM View BBCode
Actually, you're the only one who is saying you're right because your league is great and you're smart. And if you really believe that more difficult rules don't make the league harder, then I don't know what to say. I am literally speechless. No one is saying that owners in dynasty leagues an incapable of learning the specialized rules. But the fact is they don't have to and their leagues are easier for it. I'm not sure what that's a difficult concept.
Jughead
December 25, 2013 at 06:22AM View BBCode
Dynasty leagues are like the Mountain West. Speed and private leagues are like the SEC or Big 10. So have fun being Fresno State or whatever. I will enjoy being Purdue (1-11 in 2013).
paulcaraccio
December 25, 2013 at 06:51PM View BBCode
oh and dirty, add "literally" to your list of words you should look up the definition of, ha.
paulcaraccio
Can you elaborate on why different rules are more difficult? So far it's like you're saying you speak Spanish and I don't, therefore Spanish is harder than English. If you could name a rule or two that adds difficulty, maybe we could get somewhere.
I'll even kick it off for ya: 26 of the 86 speed leagues use a different (from Dynasty) rule where you don't have CPs in the minors. You can develop a dozen guys at a time, there's no such thing as a CP crunch. This makes the game more difficult than playing with the dynasty CP system because ____________________
December 26, 2013 at 06:23AM View BBCode
haha, nice.Can you elaborate on why different rules are more difficult? So far it's like you're saying you speak Spanish and I don't, therefore Spanish is harder than English. If you could name a rule or two that adds difficulty, maybe we could get somewhere.
I'll even kick it off for ya: 26 of the 86 speed leagues use a different (from Dynasty) rule where you don't have CPs in the minors. You can develop a dozen guys at a time, there's no such thing as a CP crunch. This makes the game more difficult than playing with the dynasty CP system because ____________________
dirtdevil
the rule you're talking about isn't used an awful lot on it's own. when it is it doesn't change a whole lot, although there is an adjustment required to player valuations. but more often it is used in conjunction with variable development, higher injury rates, or both. both of those add (relatively) considerable difficulty to the game. loss penalties and draft lotteries can add an extra wrinkle as well, the idea being that you can no longer tank your way to a championship. you're still completely ignoring the games per day factor, which is substantial. in general, speed leagues (especially those that started as private leagues before the merge) tend to have more experienced owners and one of the reason is simply that they play three or four seasons in the time it takes you to play one. salary leagues (with a salary cap and free agency) are the ultimate in extra difficulty, imo. they are a different animal altogether.
look paul, I used to be you. when I first joined I would get irritated by people talking down to dynasty players and ignoring their needs when proposing rule changes and so on. then I joined a private league, and discovered that those guys were right. there was a difference and the private leagues (speed leagues now) really were harder. just like all those high school English students of my wife's come back to commencement the next November and tell her that she was right too.
December 27, 2013 at 12:38AM View BBCode
the reason this conversation is having trouble getting somewhere is that one of us only has experience in one area and the other in two. you haven't experienced both things but you think you know better anyway. it's like my wife trying to explain to her high school English students why what they've written wouldn't be good enough in a post-secondary setting. it isn't, but you can't convince them of it until they get there and their work gets crucified the first time. then they understand, they adjust and those who are capable succeed. until they experience it though, they swear up and down that she doesn't know what she's talking about. I feel like that talking to you now.the rule you're talking about isn't used an awful lot on it's own. when it is it doesn't change a whole lot, although there is an adjustment required to player valuations. but more often it is used in conjunction with variable development, higher injury rates, or both. both of those add (relatively) considerable difficulty to the game. loss penalties and draft lotteries can add an extra wrinkle as well, the idea being that you can no longer tank your way to a championship. you're still completely ignoring the games per day factor, which is substantial. in general, speed leagues (especially those that started as private leagues before the merge) tend to have more experienced owners and one of the reason is simply that they play three or four seasons in the time it takes you to play one. salary leagues (with a salary cap and free agency) are the ultimate in extra difficulty, imo. they are a different animal altogether.
look paul, I used to be you. when I first joined I would get irritated by people talking down to dynasty players and ignoring their needs when proposing rule changes and so on. then I joined a private league, and discovered that those guys were right. there was a difference and the private leagues (speed leagues now) really were harder. just like all those high school English students of my wife's come back to commencement the next November and tell her that she was right too.
paulcaraccio
It can't be disputed that the CP system used in all dynasty leagues is the most restrictive and challenging on the site. (5-5-5-3-2, with at least 4 on pitchers/hitters). The other systems are either no system at all, 5-5-5-5 any position, or the 1-15 system, all providing additional flexibility and reduced difficulty; so ignoring the type of CP system and GPD, 35 of the 86 speed leagues use the same rules as Dynasty - no var dev, no Numbers, no hidden +/-, no salaries, no Win Pct Mod. How are these leagues harder than Dynasty?
In a speed league draft pick advice thread on the Trade/Draft board started by skycoyote, a pitcher who should have been a top-5 pick lasted until the 15th choice. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that these oversights only happen in dynasty leagues due to the weaker competition. Is that league harder than a dynasty league?
In the speed league I'm in right now (despite the dueling Spanish/Literature analogies, I have spent time in 10-12 speed leagues), we have the following owners:
1) 0 titles in 45 dynasty seasons; 4 speed league titles in 119 seasons.
2) 0 titles in 5 dynasty seasons; 1 speed title in 57 seasons.
3) Never played dynasty; 3 titles in 80 speed seasons
4) 0 in 5 dynasty; 4 in 41 speed.
5) 0 in 3 dynasty; 0 in 7 speed.
6) no dynasty; 74 titles in 642 speed seasons.
7) no dynasty; 20 in 172 speed.
8) 0 in 14 dynasty; 23 in 269 speed.
9) no dynasty; 0 in 86 speed.
10) MDorf
11) 1 in 8 dynasty; 2 in 58 speed.
12) 0 in 31 dynasty; 18 in 412 speed.
13) 0 in 65 dynasty; 5 in 1,637 speed.
14) 0 in 65 dynasty; 5 in 1,637 speed. (Not a typo; 13 and 14 are the same person, he owns 2 teams in this league.
15) chaperone
16) chaperone
Based purely on the competition, is this league harder than a dynasty league?
December 27, 2013 at 07:51PM View BBCode
The no-CP rule isn't used an awful lot on it's own; but there are 5 speed leagues that use no CPs, no var dev, and no higher injury rates. Are these leagues harder than dynasty leagues?It can't be disputed that the CP system used in all dynasty leagues is the most restrictive and challenging on the site. (5-5-5-3-2, with at least 4 on pitchers/hitters). The other systems are either no system at all, 5-5-5-5 any position, or the 1-15 system, all providing additional flexibility and reduced difficulty; so ignoring the type of CP system and GPD, 35 of the 86 speed leagues use the same rules as Dynasty - no var dev, no Numbers, no hidden +/-, no salaries, no Win Pct Mod. How are these leagues harder than Dynasty?
In a speed league draft pick advice thread on the Trade/Draft board started by skycoyote, a pitcher who should have been a top-5 pick lasted until the 15th choice. Earlier in this thread it was suggested that these oversights only happen in dynasty leagues due to the weaker competition. Is that league harder than a dynasty league?
In the speed league I'm in right now (despite the dueling Spanish/Literature analogies, I have spent time in 10-12 speed leagues), we have the following owners:
1) 0 titles in 45 dynasty seasons; 4 speed league titles in 119 seasons.
2) 0 titles in 5 dynasty seasons; 1 speed title in 57 seasons.
3) Never played dynasty; 3 titles in 80 speed seasons
4) 0 in 5 dynasty; 4 in 41 speed.
5) 0 in 3 dynasty; 0 in 7 speed.
6) no dynasty; 74 titles in 642 speed seasons.
7) no dynasty; 20 in 172 speed.
8) 0 in 14 dynasty; 23 in 269 speed.
9) no dynasty; 0 in 86 speed.
10) MDorf
11) 1 in 8 dynasty; 2 in 58 speed.
12) 0 in 31 dynasty; 18 in 412 speed.
13) 0 in 65 dynasty; 5 in 1,637 speed.
14) 0 in 65 dynasty; 5 in 1,637 speed. (Not a typo; 13 and 14 are the same person, he owns 2 teams in this league.
15) chaperone
16) chaperone
Based purely on the competition, is this league harder than a dynasty league?
ballmark
That is the Tony Conigliaro League, which uses no +/- on grades, hidden improvements, and a draft lottery with an owner-selected message board draft for the first two rounds. Edited to add: And they use, by the way, the Dynasty League System 2 Minors.
Other than that, I've played in 3-6-9-12-15 GPD Speed leagues, Salary Leagues, and I have recently joined my first Edit League. I've chaperoned many times for a bunch of different leagues. Everywhere I go it's the same as my fantasy baseball leagues; there are owners, players, and cash contributors. Owners are the guys who really, really know what they're doing. They are there for the long haul. Players may know what they're doing, but they really don't care. They will jump ship as soon as they need a rebuild. Cash contributors, in this scenario, are newbie owners who generally let themselves be taken advantage of in deals. They may one day be serious gamers and owners, but they will get dusted up a little on the way.
Again, *every* league I have played in has all three types, whether it be Dynasty or Speed. The really good leagues (and the ones I enjoy most) are the ones with the most long term owners.
Salary leagues I don't *think* are harder than Dynasty Leagues, but they are certainly a horse of a different color. It's like trying to compare apples to oranges.
I'm too new at the Edit League to gauge how hard that is going to be, so I won't comment on that.
[Edited on 12-27-2013 by ballmark]
December 27, 2013 at 08:25PM View BBCode
In my experience - which I will quickly and clearly grant you is not anywhere near most in this thread - I have only come across one league that is "harder" (and by that I mean more difficult to play) than a Dynasty League.That is the Tony Conigliaro League, which uses no +/- on grades, hidden improvements, and a draft lottery with an owner-selected message board draft for the first two rounds. Edited to add: And they use, by the way, the Dynasty League System 2 Minors.
Other than that, I've played in 3-6-9-12-15 GPD Speed leagues, Salary Leagues, and I have recently joined my first Edit League. I've chaperoned many times for a bunch of different leagues. Everywhere I go it's the same as my fantasy baseball leagues; there are owners, players, and cash contributors. Owners are the guys who really, really know what they're doing. They are there for the long haul. Players may know what they're doing, but they really don't care. They will jump ship as soon as they need a rebuild. Cash contributors, in this scenario, are newbie owners who generally let themselves be taken advantage of in deals. They may one day be serious gamers and owners, but they will get dusted up a little on the way.
Again, *every* league I have played in has all three types, whether it be Dynasty or Speed. The really good leagues (and the ones I enjoy most) are the ones with the most long term owners.
Salary leagues I don't *think* are harder than Dynasty Leagues, but they are certainly a horse of a different color. It's like trying to compare apples to oranges.
I'm too new at the Edit League to gauge how hard that is going to be, so I won't comment on that.
[Edited on 12-27-2013 by ballmark]
cdunn3
I agree with your classification, owners-player-cash contributorss.
Having played in both, including salary, edit, OCL,
I would agree it depends on the league - but to say
Dynasty leagues (implying as a whole) are not as
good as Speed (x-private)(implying as a whole) is
not correct.
I also agree that the dynasty league minor league
improvement system is the toughest.
December 27, 2013 at 09:37PM View BBCode
Ballmark, great post.I agree with your classification, owners-player-cash contributorss.
Having played in both, including salary, edit, OCL,
I would agree it depends on the league - but to say
Dynasty leagues (implying as a whole) are not as
good as Speed (x-private)(implying as a whole) is
not correct.
I also agree that the dynasty league minor league
improvement system is the toughest.
dirtdevil
December 27, 2013 at 11:24PM View BBCode
Paul, not only are you not listening, you're cherry picking specific favourables to use in a general argument. Clearly you just don't want to believe that dynasty leagues as a type are less difficult, no matter what is said. That's your perrogative but it makes it impossible to get anywhere with you. You believe what you want.
paulcaraccio
December 28, 2013 at 12:12AM View BBCode
Child please....I give you facts and data, and you call it cherry picking. You give me opinions and theories, and you call that logic.
paulcaraccio
Now these are rules that are not just different but also obviously make the game more difficult, by withholding vital information. Ballmark jumps in for 5 seconds, supports the side I'm arguing, and yet he still provided more evidence against me than we've seen to this point.
Of the 86 speed leagues, 2 use those settings. One of these 2 only plays with 8 teams, so even though the game is more difficult, the increased odds make winning a lot easier there.
So I will concede that Conigliaro is a tougher league than any dynasty league.
1 down, 85 to go.
December 28, 2013 at 12:58AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ballmark
the Tony Conigliaro League, which uses no +/- on grades, hidden improvements
[Edited on 12-27-2013 by ballmark]
Now these are rules that are not just different but also obviously make the game more difficult, by withholding vital information. Ballmark jumps in for 5 seconds, supports the side I'm arguing, and yet he still provided more evidence against me than we've seen to this point.
Of the 86 speed leagues, 2 use those settings. One of these 2 only plays with 8 teams, so even though the game is more difficult, the increased odds make winning a lot easier there.
So I will concede that Conigliaro is a tougher league than any dynasty league.
1 down, 85 to go.
WillyD
Other than that, the only difficulty presented by a dynasty league would one that had a lot of good owners.
December 28, 2013 at 02:52AM View BBCode
Dynasty leagues do you use the most difficult minor league system, although many of those dynasty leagues are skirting those rules by allowing CP trades.Other than that, the only difficulty presented by a dynasty league would one that had a lot of good owners.
paulcaraccio
December 28, 2013 at 03:36AM View BBCode
There are 2 speed leagues that use var dev with minor league system 2, I'll say that's clearly an added challenge compared to dynasty, Yount and Lee. So that's 3.
tworoosters
December 28, 2013 at 06:27AM View BBCode
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.
ballmark
I will concede that this one area, above all others, is what might *possibly* make Speed Leagues better than Dynasty. It certainly has nothing to do with owners or rule sets (w/the previously stated exception of the TCL).
December 28, 2013 at 12:42PM View BBCode
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.Totally agree with tworoosters on that. I believe it to be, in fact, the single most important difference between Dynasty League play and Speed League play. Not only are your hands tied in regard to the number and type of prospects you can mature, it can take the better part of an actual year to watch them become major league ready.
I will concede that this one area, above all others, is what might *possibly* make Speed Leagues better than Dynasty. It certainly has nothing to do with owners or rule sets (w/the previously stated exception of the TCL).
cdunn3
It follows that the Johnny Logan, Dave Winfield, and
Ted Williams leagues (18 gpd) must have the most
focused owners, eh?
December 28, 2013 at 01:14PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.
It follows that the Johnny Logan, Dave Winfield, and
Ted Williams leagues (18 gpd) must have the most
focused owners, eh?
tworoosters
No, it would be the Gaylord Perry League, using your logic, with 36 games per day.
December 28, 2013 at 05:41PM View BBCode
Originally posted by cdunn3
Originally posted by tworoosters
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.
It follows that the Johnny Logan, Dave Winfield, and
Ted Williams leagues (18 gpd) must have the most
focused owners, eh?
No, it would be the Gaylord Perry League, using your logic, with 36 games per day.
Jughead
Or should I just make a bunch of strawman arguments. Those are more fun.
Anyway, higher-GPD leagues are more challenging FOR ME because it is harder to succeed without a boom-and-bust cycle when there are already four GMs in each league following this pattern. It's like not trading CPs in a CP trading league and still winning it all (which I did in the JCL?the greatest achievement by anyone ever in the entire world).
(Strawmen arguments are fun.)
December 28, 2013 at 07:37PM View BBCode
When I think about human factors, I would have to expect there to be more tanking in higher-GPD leagues. That is because the calendar time of having a shitty team is a lot easier when you only have to deal with it for a few months. What would test this theory is if the average winning percentage of the 7th and 8th place teams across all leagues is lower in higher-GPD leagues.Or should I just make a bunch of strawman arguments. Those are more fun.
Anyway, higher-GPD leagues are more challenging FOR ME because it is harder to succeed without a boom-and-bust cycle when there are already four GMs in each league following this pattern. It's like not trading CPs in a CP trading league and still winning it all (which I did in the JCL?the greatest achievement by anyone ever in the entire world).
(Strawmen arguments are fun.)