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Old Forum Index » Sim Forums » Check This Out! » Sim Dynasty Mythbusters Part 2: Dynasty leagues are child's play
cdunn3
Not my logic, it was yours.
December 28, 2013 at 09:30PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Originally posted by cdunn3
Originally posted by tworoosters
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.
It follows that the Johnny Logan, Dave Winfield, and
Ted Williams leagues (18 gpd) must have the most
focused owners, eh?
No, it would be the Gaylord Perry League, using your logic, with 36 games per day.
Not my logic, it was yours.
dirtdevil
[Edited on 12-28-2013 by dirtdevil]
December 28, 2013 at 11:50PM View BBCode
It wasn't, actually. You're taking his argument to it's most ridiculous extension so as to negate his point through ridicule. It's a fun debate tactic but useless as a refutation. Like most of Paul's arguments, actually.[Edited on 12-28-2013 by dirtdevil]
paulcaraccio
totally agree, I think the slower pace of play makes the game harder. You need more patience and restraint, difficult things for many men. In a 18-36 GPD league a tanking team can just show up for the draft and then Set it and Forget it, come back in a week for the next season.
Another thing that some speed leagues do to make them less challenging than Dynasty is use Numbers instead of Letters. Number ratings make the game a lot easier, especially when drafting. There are 11 speed leagues that use numbers. 2 of these even have no CPs and no var dev (none of these 11 use the Dynasty CP system), and one of those even uses a softer injury system than Dynasty, which I didn't even know existed.
So if we agree that Numbers are easier than Letters, and Minor League System 2 is the most difficult, strictly judging by League Rules, 44 of the 86 Speed Leagues are Dynasty-neutral or Dynasty Lite.
7 more leagues almost fit that criteria, but just have additional injuries.
December 29, 2013 at 12:23AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
The biggest difficulty in a Dynasty league is staying focused while the season takes two months to play.
totally agree, I think the slower pace of play makes the game harder. You need more patience and restraint, difficult things for many men. In a 18-36 GPD league a tanking team can just show up for the draft and then Set it and Forget it, come back in a week for the next season.
Another thing that some speed leagues do to make them less challenging than Dynasty is use Numbers instead of Letters. Number ratings make the game a lot easier, especially when drafting. There are 11 speed leagues that use numbers. 2 of these even have no CPs and no var dev (none of these 11 use the Dynasty CP system), and one of those even uses a softer injury system than Dynasty, which I didn't even know existed.
So if we agree that Numbers are easier than Letters, and Minor League System 2 is the most difficult, strictly judging by League Rules, 44 of the 86 Speed Leagues are Dynasty-neutral or Dynasty Lite.
7 more leagues almost fit that criteria, but just have additional injuries.
ballmark
December 29, 2013 at 01:38AM View BBCode
So, I've lost track. Which myth are we busting here?
dirtdevil
December 29, 2013 at 02:10AM View BBCode
We are all doing our best to prove that Paul is the best owner in the best league on the site, which he knows because he's played in it.
paulcaraccio
"All speed leagues are harder than all dynasty leagues"
December 29, 2013 at 05:47PM View BBCode
Originally posted by ballmark
So, I've lost track. Which myth are we busting here?
"All speed leagues are harder than all dynasty leagues"
WillyD
That pretty much sums it up!
:lol:
December 29, 2013 at 06:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
We are all doing our best to prove that Paul is the best owner in the best league on the site, which he knows because he's played in it.
That pretty much sums it up!
:lol:
tworoosters
How is any development system "more difficult" when everyone in the league uses the same system ?
December 29, 2013 at 09:20PM View BBCode
Just as a side note:How is any development system "more difficult" when everyone in the league uses the same system ?
dirtdevil
Which no one has ever actually said in the first place. Good job.
December 30, 2013 at 12:43AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
Originally posted by ballmark
So, I've lost track. Which myth are we busting here?
"All speed leagues are harder than all dynasty leagues"
Which no one has ever actually said in the first place. Good job.
paulcaraccio
this is the point I was making at the beginning. No league is really more difficult than another because everyone in the league plays by the same rules. The only way a league could truly be more difficult is if it had more teams. In the Sim, it's 1 out of 16 whether it's Speed or Dynasty.
December 30, 2013 at 06:01AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Just as a side note:
How is any development system "more difficult" when everyone in the league uses the same system ?
this is the point I was making at the beginning. No league is really more difficult than another because everyone in the league plays by the same rules. The only way a league could truly be more difficult is if it had more teams. In the Sim, it's 1 out of 16 whether it's Speed or Dynasty.
paulcaraccio
it's pretty funny that i keep getting accused of this, considering you guys are arguing the side that's saying "we are superior", and I'm saying we're equal.
December 30, 2013 at 06:04AM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
Originally posted by dirtdevil
We are all doing our best to prove that Paul is the best owner in the best league on the site, which he knows because he's played in it.
That pretty much sums it up!
:lol:
it's pretty funny that i keep getting accused of this, considering you guys are arguing the side that's saying "we are superior", and I'm saying we're equal.
kyleturf30
From: imalbundy2
To: kyleturf30
CC:
Folder: Inbox
Sent: 12-30-2013 at 07:33 AM
Message: i think speed leagues are harder only because there are many more games played per day - in RSL our seasons are over in 2 weeks - if you go away for a week you miss half a season.
people with a lot of time on their hands have an advantage over those with jobs, family, etc.
there are some leagues with crazy a$$ rules that make it harder - but that's the point of the crazy a$$ rules, right? you cannot compare that to a dynasty league.
you have to compare apples to apples.
i don't think the competition level is any harder in speed than in dynasty. there are many good owners who play dynasty. the only difference between a generic speed league and a generic dynasty league is TIME.
December 30, 2013 at 02:15PM View BBCode
Here is what imalbundy2 (and his 110 titles on this site) has to say about this:From: imalbundy2
To: kyleturf30
CC:
Folder: Inbox
Sent: 12-30-2013 at 07:33 AM
Message: i think speed leagues are harder only because there are many more games played per day - in RSL our seasons are over in 2 weeks - if you go away for a week you miss half a season.
people with a lot of time on their hands have an advantage over those with jobs, family, etc.
there are some leagues with crazy a$$ rules that make it harder - but that's the point of the crazy a$$ rules, right? you cannot compare that to a dynasty league.
you have to compare apples to apples.
i don't think the competition level is any harder in speed than in dynasty. there are many good owners who play dynasty. the only difference between a generic speed league and a generic dynasty league is TIME.
kyleturf30
I believe that a league that has very accomplished owners is going be a tough league. As I think WillyD (and I agree... hope I'm not misqouting him) pointed out a good owner is a owner that can hang in ANY TYPE of league and be respectable and/or win. Some guys dominate dynasty... some guys dominate Speed... some guys specialize in Variable or Salary or Edit. Show me guys that have won alot and can hang in ALL/or alot of THE leagues and be respectible. Ok... where are those guys playing?
For example the EOL has 16 owners that have won 394 W.S. titles combined (which is what Blumer pointed out). That's a tough league casue the competiton is almost entirely guys that have won in that league and in other places in varied processes.... Zero chance that league can be considered 'easy'.
The AL of the Santo league (8 owners) have won a combined 216 titles.
The AL of the Nettles league (8 owners) have combined to win 170 titles
The entire Mantle league (all 16 owners) have won 171 titles.
The entire Cool Papa Bell league (all 16) have won a combined 91 titles.
The average guy in the AL Santo is going have a tougher time then in either Mantle or Bell regardless how good he is... the competition is stronger overall (which is what dirtdevil pointed out).
Look I have no doubt that the dynasty leagues (all leagues for that matter) have good owners.... When I click on some of those in dynasty I see some great names. But as I think Dirtdevil and I thnk it was Jmarsh pointed out... The top speed leagues are going have more accomplished owners which means they are tougher to win in general as the competiton is stiffer.
I'm sure some of the top dynasty leagues are good enough to hang with some of the speed leagues (espically those with several openings). But the top Speed leagues are really, really tough... period. I have dipped in ALOT of the speed leagues and I can tell you the EOL is no picnic. The Horner league is no picnic. Nettles is full of super accomplished owners. The edit leagues are not easy. The salary leagues are not simple...
My life would be MUCH, MUCH simpler if all I messed with was Dynasty as 3 games a day and a fairly straightforward set of rules would seem to be easier then having to check in several times a day as Bundy pointed out.
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by kyleturf30]
December 30, 2013 at 02:52PM View BBCode
I been following this and I'm finally at work and can blow off work and chime in....I believe that a league that has very accomplished owners is going be a tough league. As I think WillyD (and I agree... hope I'm not misqouting him) pointed out a good owner is a owner that can hang in ANY TYPE of league and be respectable and/or win. Some guys dominate dynasty... some guys dominate Speed... some guys specialize in Variable or Salary or Edit. Show me guys that have won alot and can hang in ALL/or alot of THE leagues and be respectible. Ok... where are those guys playing?
For example the EOL has 16 owners that have won 394 W.S. titles combined (which is what Blumer pointed out). That's a tough league casue the competiton is almost entirely guys that have won in that league and in other places in varied processes.... Zero chance that league can be considered 'easy'.
The AL of the Santo league (8 owners) have won a combined 216 titles.
The AL of the Nettles league (8 owners) have combined to win 170 titles
The entire Mantle league (all 16 owners) have won 171 titles.
The entire Cool Papa Bell league (all 16) have won a combined 91 titles.
The average guy in the AL Santo is going have a tougher time then in either Mantle or Bell regardless how good he is... the competition is stronger overall (which is what dirtdevil pointed out).
Look I have no doubt that the dynasty leagues (all leagues for that matter) have good owners.... When I click on some of those in dynasty I see some great names. But as I think Dirtdevil and I thnk it was Jmarsh pointed out... The top speed leagues are going have more accomplished owners which means they are tougher to win in general as the competiton is stiffer.
I'm sure some of the top dynasty leagues are good enough to hang with some of the speed leagues (espically those with several openings). But the top Speed leagues are really, really tough... period. I have dipped in ALOT of the speed leagues and I can tell you the EOL is no picnic. The Horner league is no picnic. Nettles is full of super accomplished owners. The edit leagues are not easy. The salary leagues are not simple...
My life would be MUCH, MUCH simpler if all I messed with was Dynasty as 3 games a day and a fairly straightforward set of rules would seem to be easier then having to check in several times a day as Bundy pointed out.
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by kyleturf30]
kyleturf30
Isn't the natural progression is to come to the Private/speed. Why would that progression be in place if the speed were as easy as the dynasty?
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by kyleturf30]
December 30, 2013 at 03:30PM View BBCode
It's never a ALL Is better then a ALL.... I'm sure if I took the next 20 hours and evalulated EVERY league there are going be Dynasty Leagues that can hang with Speed or vice versa. But I would beyond shocked if the very top of the private/speed group isn't loaded with more accomplished people then most of the Dynasty leagues.Isn't the natural progression is to come to the Private/speed. Why would that progression be in place if the speed were as easy as the dynasty?
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by kyleturf30]
paulcaraccio
There is no easy and fair way to prove a league's collective owner strength. I could post an owner card with a total of 25 seasons on it, and the response would be "he only has 25 seasons, and he's never played in a speed league - therefore, he is not a strong owner." But I've competed against him for over four years, he knows how to draft, develop, trade, and manage, and those are the only tools you need to succeed in any league. Another guy in another league has 1 ring in 10 seasons on his card - and I can tell you without a doubt he is a stronger owner than plenty of guys I've been up against with hundreds of seasons on their card. Experience doesn't necessarily equal strength; inexperience doesn't necessarily equal weakness.
I don't think that natural progression exists anymore. As someone else pointed out, you only have 6 chances a year to join a dynasty league, but you can join a speed league 365 days a year. This was likely untrue in the past, but nowadays probability would suggest that it's much more likely to see a beginner in a speed league than a dynasty league.
December 30, 2013 at 06:26PM View BBCode
exactly...there are probably a few speed leagues that are tougher than any other league (dynasty or speed), but in general, it's all the same. There are 86 speed leagues, and probably 60 or 70 or 80 of them are no tougher than dynasty. I've been in 10 or 12 speed leagues, and none of them were any different than dynasty, competition-wise.There is no easy and fair way to prove a league's collective owner strength. I could post an owner card with a total of 25 seasons on it, and the response would be "he only has 25 seasons, and he's never played in a speed league - therefore, he is not a strong owner." But I've competed against him for over four years, he knows how to draft, develop, trade, and manage, and those are the only tools you need to succeed in any league. Another guy in another league has 1 ring in 10 seasons on his card - and I can tell you without a doubt he is a stronger owner than plenty of guys I've been up against with hundreds of seasons on their card. Experience doesn't necessarily equal strength; inexperience doesn't necessarily equal weakness.
I don't think that natural progression exists anymore. As someone else pointed out, you only have 6 chances a year to join a dynasty league, but you can join a speed league 365 days a year. This was likely untrue in the past, but nowadays probability would suggest that it's much more likely to see a beginner in a speed league than a dynasty league.
paulcaraccio
December 30, 2013 at 06:30PM View BBCode
good stuff though Kyle, hope you stick around, it's cool to talk to someone who isn't just saying "Believe me" ;)
kyleturf30
This thread reminds me of grad school. Discussion about stuff that cannot be proven one way or another. Its all opinion.... I have been in speed leagues that are a nightmare competition wise. I have never been in a dynasty league so I was reluctant to post at all...
Back a few years ago Admin did have a league strength formula and posted a list of the leagues and where they fit in relative to each other. I think that formula was based on owner strength...
December 30, 2013 at 07:23PM View BBCode
I'm always around. I read just about everything is ever posted on these main forums. I just don't chime in too much cause generally I don't care enough about what we are talking about or whatever... Nothing personal to anybody.....This thread reminds me of grad school. Discussion about stuff that cannot be proven one way or another. Its all opinion.... I have been in speed leagues that are a nightmare competition wise. I have never been in a dynasty league so I was reluctant to post at all...
Back a few years ago Admin did have a league strength formula and posted a list of the leagues and where they fit in relative to each other. I think that formula was based on owner strength...
paulcaraccio
I certainly agree that neither side can be proven here. With that in mind, it's a lot harder to accept the argument that one side is certainly superior over the argument that says we're probably the same.
I don't think you need to join a dynasty league to post about them. It's just another group of 16 guys playing with different rules. The game is essentially the same. I've been in a bunch of speed leagues, and competed against many speed league veterans in dynasty leagues, and nobody has displayed any unique skills that make them better because of speed league experience. Some dynasty leagues are strong, some are weak, and the same is true of speed leagues.
December 30, 2013 at 07:57PM View BBCode
i remember that. From what I recall, the formula treated all league types equally, so I'm not sure how meaningful it is here, but according to the results, a dynasty league was #1. (Mantle was 10 i think; we'd be worse now, we just lost a really good owner before this season, replaced by a rookie)I certainly agree that neither side can be proven here. With that in mind, it's a lot harder to accept the argument that one side is certainly superior over the argument that says we're probably the same.
I don't think you need to join a dynasty league to post about them. It's just another group of 16 guys playing with different rules. The game is essentially the same. I've been in a bunch of speed leagues, and competed against many speed league veterans in dynasty leagues, and nobody has displayed any unique skills that make them better because of speed league experience. Some dynasty leagues are strong, some are weak, and the same is true of speed leagues.
paulcaraccio
This was after the formula was rejiggered to (fairly) remove the Dynasty league that was initially on top. (One new owner had like 3 titles in 3 seasons, so his championship percentage of 100 was skewing the results)
The average rank of speed leagues was 62.5, average rank of dynasty was 70.5.
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by paulcaraccio]
December 30, 2013 at 09:27PM View BBCode
here's the thread with that spreadsheet: http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=302639This was after the formula was rejiggered to (fairly) remove the Dynasty league that was initially on top. (One new owner had like 3 titles in 3 seasons, so his championship percentage of 100 was skewing the results)
The average rank of speed leagues was 62.5, average rank of dynasty was 70.5.
[Edited on 12-30-2013 by paulcaraccio]
dirtdevil
It's mostly a moot exercise anyway though. You want dynasty leagues to hold the same or better value than speed/private leagues. That's making you actively search only for information you feel supports that thesis and discounting information that doesn't.
December 30, 2013 at 11:40PM View BBCode
But here's the thing Paul, if dynasty leagues are easier (in general) than speed leagues, then people who spend all or most of their time there will win more, giving them a higher score. If speed leagues (particularly the formerly private ones) are harder, then people who spend all or most of their time there will win less, giving them a lower score. So the numbers you've quoted would tend to act against your main point rather than for it.It's mostly a moot exercise anyway though. You want dynasty leagues to hold the same or better value than speed/private leagues. That's making you actively search only for information you feel supports that thesis and discounting information that doesn't.
paulcaraccio
And in that short post, you managed to accuse me of "discounting information that doesn't (support my point)" and using "numbers...against (my) main point".
So it's completely unacceptable to cite facts to back up my points, and when I point to data that suggests speed leagues are actually a little more difficult (or at least were at the time the data was recorded), you don't like that either, but you totally forgot about that with two clicks of the enter button. It's almost as if...you're using information that supports your thesis and discounting information that doesn't. You may actually be guilty of every single thing that you have falsely accused me of in this thread. It's honestly an interesting tactic, kind of a he-who-smelt-it-dealt-it thing.
Your argument is that the leagues you personally prefer are superior, and your evidence of this is that you, like, totally think so. Facts are meaningless, and your opinion is unassailable.
Thanks for your contributions!
December 31, 2013 at 12:59AM View BBCode
Sir, you keep "accusing" me of using "information that supports my thesis". Charging me with Regular Usage of Facts is arguably sillier than your repeated slander that I'm just trying to prove how awesome I am - in other words...you know...your...actual...argument here.And in that short post, you managed to accuse me of "discounting information that doesn't (support my point)" and using "numbers...against (my) main point".
So it's completely unacceptable to cite facts to back up my points, and when I point to data that suggests speed leagues are actually a little more difficult (or at least were at the time the data was recorded), you don't like that either, but you totally forgot about that with two clicks of the enter button. It's almost as if...you're using information that supports your thesis and discounting information that doesn't. You may actually be guilty of every single thing that you have falsely accused me of in this thread. It's honestly an interesting tactic, kind of a he-who-smelt-it-dealt-it thing.
Your argument is that the leagues you personally prefer are superior, and your evidence of this is that you, like, totally think so. Facts are meaningless, and your opinion is unassailable.
Thanks for your contributions!
chrisandlainey
For example, you spent several seasons developing guys, watching other teams win but know they will get old and decline about when you project to fully develop. Then, two green owners join, and agree to redonkulous trades, extending the window for those winning teams, thwarting your well thought out plan. So then you can either a) stay the course and continue to finish in the middle and age out to try again(b) sell off to those winning teams to get a head start on a rebuild and hope this cycle doesn't repeat or (c) start trying to get in on the redonkulous trades before the talent is all gone.
So, the unknown variable is the green owner. As it appears that the speed leagues generally have more collective experience, they probably don't have to worry about a green owner coming on and trading their a rated overall 25 year old starting pitcher for a playoff first rounder.
In short, in speed leagues it would appear that you don't have to plan for a lot of completely unexpected transfers of talent.
It makes it tough also, because it's hard to build long term relationships... You screw someone over, they will never want another trade. But if you don't do it, then someone else will. So you have to figure out quick if the guy is a cash cow or a long termer, and either go for the jugular or lay back and hope to build up trust to get better trade terms in the long run.
Disclaimer - I've never played speed leagues, so it could be the same there. I just picture most owners having some sense of the game in the speed leagues.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
December 31, 2013 at 01:04AM View BBCode
I admit this is a backward logic argument, but one challenge I've stumbled across in dynasty leagues is that it can actually be more difficult to build a long term plan because of the inexperience factor.For example, you spent several seasons developing guys, watching other teams win but know they will get old and decline about when you project to fully develop. Then, two green owners join, and agree to redonkulous trades, extending the window for those winning teams, thwarting your well thought out plan. So then you can either a) stay the course and continue to finish in the middle and age out to try again(b) sell off to those winning teams to get a head start on a rebuild and hope this cycle doesn't repeat or (c) start trying to get in on the redonkulous trades before the talent is all gone.
So, the unknown variable is the green owner. As it appears that the speed leagues generally have more collective experience, they probably don't have to worry about a green owner coming on and trading their a rated overall 25 year old starting pitcher for a playoff first rounder.
In short, in speed leagues it would appear that you don't have to plan for a lot of completely unexpected transfers of talent.
It makes it tough also, because it's hard to build long term relationships... You screw someone over, they will never want another trade. But if you don't do it, then someone else will. So you have to figure out quick if the guy is a cash cow or a long termer, and either go for the jugular or lay back and hope to build up trust to get better trade terms in the long run.
Disclaimer - I've never played speed leagues, so it could be the same there. I just picture most owners having some sense of the game in the speed leagues.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
WillyD
This type of talent transfer happens all the time in speed leagues.
December 31, 2013 at 05:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by chrisandlainey
In short, in speed leagues it would appear that you don't have to plan for a lot of completely unexpected transfers of talent.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
This type of talent transfer happens all the time in speed leagues.
chrisandlainey
OK - but if these completely one sided trades happen all the time in speed leagues all the time, wouldn't that negate the argument that speed leagues are more difficult because the owners are more experienced and knowledgeable?
To be clear, I wasn't referring to blockbuster type of trades, but talking about basically seeing new owners give up a lot of value without getting close to a fair return. It's hard to plan for the long term when a new owner can come in and give up great players in their prime and get a crappy draft pick in return.
This doesn't happen all the time in the dynasty leagues I've played in, but happens enough that it can be tough for the reasons I noted before.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
December 31, 2013 at 12:22PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
Originally posted by chrisandlainey
In short, in speed leagues it would appear that you don't have to plan for a lot of completely unexpected transfers of talent.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
This type of talent transfer happens all the time in speed leagues.
OK - but if these completely one sided trades happen all the time in speed leagues all the time, wouldn't that negate the argument that speed leagues are more difficult because the owners are more experienced and knowledgeable?
To be clear, I wasn't referring to blockbuster type of trades, but talking about basically seeing new owners give up a lot of value without getting close to a fair return. It's hard to plan for the long term when a new owner can come in and give up great players in their prime and get a crappy draft pick in return.
This doesn't happen all the time in the dynasty leagues I've played in, but happens enough that it can be tough for the reasons I noted before.
[Edited on 12-31-2013 by chrisandlainey]
WillyD
December 31, 2013 at 05:40PM View BBCode
Anytime a new inexperienced owner joins the league, this is a likely outcome. Many of the deals are not in the best interests of the new owner, but they're usually hard to overturn. Most owners are not going to protest a trade, or vote to overturn a trade, when they probably made an offer themselves that favored their franchise.