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dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 09:40PM View BBCode
(also, and you have to feel bad for the guy, apparently jeter is hurt again.)
eragon
What are you trying to say? That A-rod would have won the SS GG in 2004 had he not been moved to 3B?
July 12, 2013 at 10:15PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
I also have to laugh when people use jeter's gold gloves in his favour. jeter's first gold glove was in 2004. do you know who won the two years before that? alex rodriguez. do you know where arod was in 2004? playing third base beside jeter. hard to win a gold glove at SS that way.
What are you trying to say? That A-rod would have won the SS GG in 2004 had he not been moved to 3B?
eragon
July 12, 2013 at 10:17PM View BBCode
I see what you are saying about the defensive metrics but I feel you are discounting offense a little. Just like Jeter's defense, as you say, isn't even in the same country as the others , Trammell or Fernandez's batting is not in the same country as Jeter's.
dirtdevil
July 12, 2013 at 11:18PM View BBCode
Their hitting is much closer to his than his defence is to theirs.
eragon
LOL :)
July 12, 2013 at 11:38PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Defense, of course, being so easy to measure .
LOL :)
eragon
Not really Jeter has a career .313 BA and 255 HR Fernandez has a .288 BA with 94 HR and Trammell has a .285 BA with 185 HR they are not even close. When I have more time I could write their full slash lines, along with doubles and steals but i gotta run
July 12, 2013 at 11:41PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Their hitting is much closer to his than his defence is to theirs.
Not really Jeter has a career .313 BA and 255 HR Fernandez has a .288 BA with 94 HR and Trammell has a .285 BA with 185 HR they are not even close. When I have more time I could write their full slash lines, along with doubles and steals but i gotta run
tworoosters
Trammell was the closest of those mentioned to Jeter offensively but not really that close, his career OPS+ is 110 to Jeter's 1`17 but his runs above replacement is 619 compared to Jeter's 975.
I still maintain Jeter has been under rated as a ballplayer for his career, he should easily have won MVP awards in 1998. 1999 and 2006 yet didn't because I feel there was a backlash against his celebrity.
Regardless, if I had to have a SS from the past 30 years I'd take Jeter and be happy.
July 12, 2013 at 11:41PM View BBCode
No right minded person is going to argue that Jeter was a top defensive SS, even at his best he was around league average, his tot defensive WAR over 18 seasons is -8.7 but he was never as bad as the haters contend. He was close to league average defensively and miles ahead of league average offensively, not just for his position but for any position.Trammell was the closest of those mentioned to Jeter offensively but not really that close, his career OPS+ is 110 to Jeter's 1`17 but his runs above replacement is 619 compared to Jeter's 975.
I still maintain Jeter has been under rated as a ballplayer for his career, he should easily have won MVP awards in 1998. 1999 and 2006 yet didn't because I feel there was a backlash against his celebrity.
Regardless, if I had to have a SS from the past 30 years I'd take Jeter and be happy.
paulcaraccio
July 12, 2013 at 11:46PM View BBCode
I think there's a compromise. A-Rod was probably the best shortstop since, or maybe even including Wagner. But Jeter and Ripken are the only ones in a conversation about who has had the best career as a shortstop since Wagner.
dirtdevil
I think I've said that already.
July 13, 2013 at 12:41AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Defense, of course, being so easy to measure .
I think I've said that already.
dirtdevil
And Banks.
July 13, 2013 at 12:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
I think there's a compromise. A-Rod was probably the best shortstop since, or maybe even including Wagner. But Jeter and Ripken are the only ones in a conversation about who has had the best career as a shortstop since Wagner.
And Banks.
tworoosters
You have, but if you're going to hang your Jeter slagging on defense you have to expect to be called out on the nebulous nature of defensive measurements.
July 13, 2013 at 01:41AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by tworoosters
Defense, of course, being so easy to measure .
I think I've said that already.
You have, but if you're going to hang your Jeter slagging on defense you have to expect to be called out on the nebulous nature of defensive measurements.
dirtdevil
July 13, 2013 at 01:53AM View BBCode
Fair enough, but the case or him being not very good defensively isn't really based on those metrics in and of themselves. The problem is that while offense is pretty easy to quantify, defence just isn't. And while I'm the first to agree that offense is more important, it's not as much more important at SS as it is at LF or 1B, if that makes any sense. So defence should take on a larger role in comparing jeter to the other candidates at SS than it would between bonds and Ramirez in left, or fielder and Howard at first.
tworoosters
July 13, 2013 at 01:56AM View BBCode
I will agree with that to a certain degree but the flip side is that the difference between Jeter and the "glove men" is much greater than it is in those other positions as well.
dirtdevil
July 13, 2013 at 02:56AM View BBCode
I'm not sure it is, really. May I submit mr Doug mientkiewicz and mr Carlos Delgado. That's probably beside the point though.
eragon
Personally, I would discount a lot of what A-rod did at SS. He played at that position from 96-03 and publicly admitted being on steroids from '01-'03 (at least). In those 3 years he hit .318,.300, .298 with 52, 57 (career high), 47 HRs leading the league in homers those 3 years in a row.He finished 6th, 2nd in MVP voting in 01 and 02 and won MVP in '03. How do we know that without the benefit of steroids he would have only hit 30-35 Hrs each year. That is still great production from any player, especially a SS, but not close to the monster #s he put up. Continuing on this note, what do you guys feel about known steroid users? Should they make the Hall of Fame if they probably would have made it anyway without the use of steroids (Bonds, Clemens, A-rod) and guys that would have not been close without the steroids obviously don't make it (Sosa, McGuire)? Or do you believe that anyone that used steroids should be banned from the Hall no matter what?
July 14, 2013 at 02:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
I think there's a compromise. A-Rod was probably the best shortstop since, or maybe even including Wagner. But Jeter and Ripken are the only ones in a conversation about who has had the best career as a shortstop since Wagner.
Personally, I would discount a lot of what A-rod did at SS. He played at that position from 96-03 and publicly admitted being on steroids from '01-'03 (at least). In those 3 years he hit .318,.300, .298 with 52, 57 (career high), 47 HRs leading the league in homers those 3 years in a row.He finished 6th, 2nd in MVP voting in 01 and 02 and won MVP in '03. How do we know that without the benefit of steroids he would have only hit 30-35 Hrs each year. That is still great production from any player, especially a SS, but not close to the monster #s he put up. Continuing on this note, what do you guys feel about known steroid users? Should they make the Hall of Fame if they probably would have made it anyway without the use of steroids (Bonds, Clemens, A-rod) and guys that would have not been close without the steroids obviously don't make it (Sosa, McGuire)? Or do you believe that anyone that used steroids should be banned from the Hall no matter what?
dirtdevil
my general opinion in that steroid use was wrong. had i a vote, which i obviously don't, i would not vote for guys who's case for the hall rests completely or mainly on their steroid use. so for me mcgwire, sosa, giambi are out. i would vote for someone i feel would have been in the hall based on clean performance prior to an easily divided before and after use career. so bonds is in, as is clemens. everyone else i deal with on a case by case basis. so palmeiro is out, pettite is in if his career numbers merit it. bagwell i wouldn't vote for based purely on suspicion, which is completely unfair to him. griffey is in and mcgriff as well. and so on.
July 14, 2013 at 03:05AM View BBCode
if you can tell me which pitchers he hit off that were clean, i'm willing to discount the dingers he hit off of those guys. otherwise, it's too much of a mess to unravel and sort of beside the point in this particular conversation. it's really only a pretty lame attempt to remove from considersation someone who is obviously better than jeter.my general opinion in that steroid use was wrong. had i a vote, which i obviously don't, i would not vote for guys who's case for the hall rests completely or mainly on their steroid use. so for me mcgwire, sosa, giambi are out. i would vote for someone i feel would have been in the hall based on clean performance prior to an easily divided before and after use career. so bonds is in, as is clemens. everyone else i deal with on a case by case basis. so palmeiro is out, pettite is in if his career numbers merit it. bagwell i wouldn't vote for based purely on suspicion, which is completely unfair to him. griffey is in and mcgriff as well. and so on.
paulcaraccio
A-Rod and the recent guys are different, there are rules against it now, and it looks like A-Rod is going down, I don't think he should get in.
* unless you count, like, federal laws as "rules"
July 14, 2013 at 03:52AM View BBCode
I think McGwire and them should get in if their numbers merit it. There were no rules against steroids when they were doing it, right?* Otherwise we should retroactively ban spitballers from the Hall of Fame.A-Rod and the recent guys are different, there are rules against it now, and it looks like A-Rod is going down, I don't think he should get in.
* unless you count, like, federal laws as "rules"
dirtdevil
July 14, 2013 at 04:10AM View BBCode
i'd have a hard time voting for ARod, i think. certainly his talent should have gotten him in anyway, but he's just been on steroids too long to ignore the impact on his numbers, for me. i do have to count federal law as 'rules' though, yes. there is a somewhat valid argument about pitchers being on the juice too for the older guys though. it's hard to sort out who was or wasn't clean.
eragon
July 14, 2013 at 04:15AM View formatted
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Paul if you had a vote you would vote McGwire into the Hall of Fame? Without steroids he would not even be close. Sure with the steroids he has some great Hall of Fame caliber numbers, but had he not taken steroids his career would have been over by 1995. Instead from '95-'00 he posted the best numbers of his career. Steroids may not have been illegal but they gave players an unfair advantage. I don't see how you can put someone into the Hall of Fame based on numbers they only had because of steroids. Bonds, Clemens, A-rod would have Hall of Fame numbers without the steroids, albeit not anywhere close to the insane stats they put up.
eragon
Personally if I had a vote I would vote for Bagwell. Pettitte is not even close to the Hall of Fame even though a lot of moronic Yankee fans think otherwise (and i am a die hard Yanks fan). His career ERA is 3.87 (with 3 years in the NL helping him out). He was a good pitcher that had great run support while playing for a great Yankee offense.
July 14, 2013 at 04:19AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
if you can tell me which pitchers he hit off that were clean, i'm willing to discount the dingers he hit off of those guys. otherwise, it's too much of a mess to unravel and sort of beside the point in this particular conversation. it's really only a pretty lame attempt to remove from considersation someone who is obviously better than jeter.
my general opinion in that steroid use was wrong. had i a vote, which i obviously don't, i would not vote for guys who's case for the hall rests completely or mainly on their steroid use. so for me mcgwire, sosa, giambi are out. i would vote for someone i feel would have been in the hall based on clean performance prior to an easily divided before and after use career. so bonds is in, as is clemens. everyone else i deal with on a case by case basis. so palmeiro is out, pettite is in if his career numbers merit it. bagwell i wouldn't vote for based purely on suspicion, which is completely unfair to him. griffey is in and mcgriff as well. and so on.
Personally if I had a vote I would vote for Bagwell. Pettitte is not even close to the Hall of Fame even though a lot of moronic Yankee fans think otherwise (and i am a die hard Yanks fan). His career ERA is 3.87 (with 3 years in the NL helping him out). He was a good pitcher that had great run support while playing for a great Yankee offense.
tworoosters
Pettitte's career ERA+ is 116, better than Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton and Catfish to name a few. His NL career provided only one year when his ERA+ was better than his career mark.
Pettitte has 250+ wins in an era when that is a major number and his post season record is what distinguishes him from the herd. I'm pretty sure Pettitte will be in the Hall of Fame.
July 14, 2013 at 04:43AM View BBCode
Originally posted by eragon
Pettitte is not even close to the Hall of Fame even though a lot of moronic Yankee fans think otherwise (and i am a die hard Yanks fan). His career ERA is 3.87 (with 3 years in the NL helping him out). He was a good pitcher that had great run support while playing for a great Yankee offense.
Pettitte's career ERA+ is 116, better than Steve Carlton, Nolan Ryan, Don Sutton and Catfish to name a few. His NL career provided only one year when his ERA+ was better than his career mark.
Pettitte has 250+ wins in an era when that is a major number and his post season record is what distinguishes him from the herd. I'm pretty sure Pettitte will be in the Hall of Fame.
dirtdevil
July 14, 2013 at 04:55AM View BBCode
i haven't really looked at pettite's numbers. i'm just saying that for me, his ped stuff wouldn't keep him out. my hunch is he gets in and i guess i kind of think he should, without checking his stat page. but i know you aren't suggesting he's a better pitcher than steve carlton, right? sutton, sure. catfish, maybe, i'd have to look. ryan, no.
eragon
July 14, 2013 at 05:13AM View BBCode
Pettitte's career stats 517 Games, 507 starts, record of 252-148, career ERA 3.87, WHIP 1.35, 3,229 IP, 2,391 Ks, 1,010 BB, batting average against .269. To me those numbers are not close to Hall of Fame level. Mike Mussina has a better chance than Pettitte does. Mussina has a record of 270-153, ERA 3.68, WHIP 1.19, batting average against .255, with 2,813 Ks and 785 BBs
paulcaraccio
This might not make sense, but I actually don't want to see guys like McGwire get in...but if I had a vote, I would give it to him, because we just don't know who all the users are, so I wouldn't know how to separate anybody, and I'd leave the juice out of it. We can't even say for sure that Jeter never did steroids, we just don't know.
July 14, 2013 at 08:37AM View BBCode
i just think since we'll never know the full list of who was on steroids and who wasn't (Frank Thomas and Griffey Jr have avoided suspicion for the most part and will probably get right into the HOF, but how do we know they never used?), that it should just be based on what they did on the field. Even though they cheated, the results they produced still count. McGwire was never convicted of anything as far as I know, did he admit to it? Maybe, I don't know. If he did, that would change things for me.This might not make sense, but I actually don't want to see guys like McGwire get in...but if I had a vote, I would give it to him, because we just don't know who all the users are, so I wouldn't know how to separate anybody, and I'd leave the juice out of it. We can't even say for sure that Jeter never did steroids, we just don't know.