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whiskybear
July 01, 2005 at 02:40AM View BBCode
Power does not exactly equal home runs hit. Slugging percentage is a measure of one's power, and by that measure, only 63 players in baseball history were better power hitters than Edgar Martinez.
1tim412
July 01, 2005 at 03:08AM View BBCode
Jason Giambi's career SLG% is better than Edgar's, does that mean he should be in the HOF? He's had just a couple seasons less than him.
whiskybear
Whoa, chill out, Veggie Tales.
Listen, you've managed to pick out four positively sublime hitters, all of whom are likely destined for Cooperstown. In no way did I ever secure Edgar on the same plane with that quartet. But your argument that anyone with good bat control and a small measure of gap power can hit a lot of doubles has multiple flaws. Among them--
1. Not too many players have good bat control.
2. Not too many players have good even a small measure of gap power--and it takes a helluva a lot more than a 'small measure' to consistently hit doubles.
3. Edgar's 162-game average for doubles is 41. This, in case you were wondering, is a lot of fucking doubles.
4. If everyone in the world (who possesses the magic combination of good bat control and a small measure of power) can bulk up his slugging percentage by simply lacing out doubles, why do only 63 players in baseball history have a better slugging percentage than Edgar?
5., and this is the Grand Canyon of flaws, you seem to have an impression that the double is not all that great. On the contrary, the double is pretty fucking awesome.
It seems silly that I need to go down this road because this has always been an empirical truth. The double is worth two bases. That's more than one single! In fact, it's practically two singles! If there's a guy standing on first, there's a decent chance he's scoring on that double. If he's standing on second, you've got yourself a run. No, it doesn't clear the bases or make Isaiah spooge in his Superman whities like the home run ball, but it's a pretty fine hit--and it immediately puts a man in scoring position.
One thing on Giambi, and then we're through---he has played parts of 10 seasons. Edgar played parts of 18, and something tells me that Giambi's decline phase will be more protracted than 'Gar's.
July 01, 2005 at 03:30AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Isaiah4110
Ah, but anyone in the world with good bat control (which Martinez ovbiously has) and a small measure of gap power can hit a lot of doubles.
There is a big difference between how much power Martinez has and how much power guys like Griffey, A-Rod, Guerrero, Ramirez, and Pujols have. While a career SLG% of .500 is nice, Martinez just stayed over with a SLG% of .515. That's a big difference from players like:
Pujols (.621)
Ramirez (helped by the monster I'm sure .597)
A-Rod (.574)
Griffey (.558)
Now these are all active players, so there is the chance that their stats might drop some, but they will still remain well over Martinez for SLG%.
Whoa, chill out, Veggie Tales.
Listen, you've managed to pick out four positively sublime hitters, all of whom are likely destined for Cooperstown. In no way did I ever secure Edgar on the same plane with that quartet. But your argument that anyone with good bat control and a small measure of gap power can hit a lot of doubles has multiple flaws. Among them--
1. Not too many players have good bat control.
2. Not too many players have good even a small measure of gap power--and it takes a helluva a lot more than a 'small measure' to consistently hit doubles.
3. Edgar's 162-game average for doubles is 41. This, in case you were wondering, is a lot of fucking doubles.
4. If everyone in the world (who possesses the magic combination of good bat control and a small measure of power) can bulk up his slugging percentage by simply lacing out doubles, why do only 63 players in baseball history have a better slugging percentage than Edgar?
5., and this is the Grand Canyon of flaws, you seem to have an impression that the double is not all that great. On the contrary, the double is pretty fucking awesome.
It seems silly that I need to go down this road because this has always been an empirical truth. The double is worth two bases. That's more than one single! In fact, it's practically two singles! If there's a guy standing on first, there's a decent chance he's scoring on that double. If he's standing on second, you've got yourself a run. No, it doesn't clear the bases or make Isaiah spooge in his Superman whities like the home run ball, but it's a pretty fine hit--and it immediately puts a man in scoring position.
One thing on Giambi, and then we're through---he has played parts of 10 seasons. Edgar played parts of 18, and something tells me that Giambi's decline phase will be more protracted than 'Gar's.
skierdude44
July 01, 2005 at 03:34AM View BBCode
Uh... yeah, expect Giambi's SLG% to plummet. The .374 clip he's putting up this year won't help him and he's a fucking roid monkey bum, which is not much help either.
folifan19
63 were better power hitters than Edgar. There are only 258 players in the HOF. You want him in on his power #'s, and you're saying there are 63 guys better than him in that area. 63 is roughly 25% of the entire HOF. So you think being the #64 guy in power gets him in. And 64th in power is ALL he did. That is truly insane.
July 01, 2005 at 01:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by whiskybear
Power does not exactly equal home runs hit. Slugging percentage is a measure of one's power, and by that measure, only 63 players in baseball history were better power hitters than Edgar Martinez.
63 were better power hitters than Edgar. There are only 258 players in the HOF. You want him in on his power #'s, and you're saying there are 63 guys better than him in that area. 63 is roughly 25% of the entire HOF. So you think being the #64 guy in power gets him in. And 64th in power is ALL he did. That is truly insane.
FuriousGiorge
July 01, 2005 at 02:16PM View BBCode
Are you kidding me? As ME has already pointed out, he is 21st all-time in OBP. He was in the top-5 in OBP 10 times in his career. He is 44th all-time in OPS+, surrounded by guys named Schmidt and Guerrero. Want career totals? He's 56th all-time in runs created, 8 runs behind a guy named Joe DiMaggio (another short-career guy without any sexy counting totals and a guy who was arguably not as good of a hitter as Edgar). Edgar is ahead of guys on that list named Snider, Stargell and McGwire. Mark McGwire will be in the Hall of Fame on the first ballot entirely because of his hitting, and yet Edgar, who created more runs in a career of basically the same length, is apparently unworthy. You figure that out.
folifan19
July 01, 2005 at 02:26PM View BBCode
I think we could argue about this till the end of time, and not change the opinion of others. I don't think edgar has done enough to warrent becoming a HOFer. Whisky, an apparent flaming Mariners fan, and Furious, who I haven't decided where his loyalties lie, think Edgar is the man. So.... I guess we'll just have to leave it up to the voters, and then likely the Veterans Committee. I don't think he get's voted in by the sportswriters, and the VC is probablty the only way he gets in.
FuriousGiorge
July 01, 2005 at 03:11PM View formatted
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Okay, let's talk about someone who REALLY doesn't belong in the Hall of Fame. Like, say, Tony Perez.
folifan19
July 01, 2005 at 03:13PM View BBCode
Hey fella, thems fightin" words! He's tied with Orlando Cepeda for most HRs by a Latin American. If Edgar gets in being in the top 64 power hitters of all time, Tony gets in the same year.
FuriousGiorge
July 01, 2005 at 03:25PM View BBCode
You know how many times Tony led his league in something? Once. GIDP, 1980. His career OBP is 10 points above park adjusted league average. He did nothing special on the basepaths, was an awful 3rd baseman and an average 1st baseman. He basically did nothing to earn his spot in the Hall except for be lucky enough to play with the greatest collection of offensive talent on one team for a few years. 50 years from now people will wonder what the hell the VC was thinking in letting Perez in.
barterer2002
1. Chick Hafey
2. Bid McPhee
3. Ross Youngs
4. Jesse Haines
5. Red Schoendienst
6. Rick Farrell
7. Tommy McCarthy
8. Phil Rizzuto
9. Joe Tinker
10. Waite Hoyt
11. George Kell
12. Earl Averill
13. Catfish Hunter
14. Hal Newhouser
15. Vic Willis
16. George Kelly
17. Jim Bottomley
18. Johnny Evers
19. Richie Ashburn
20. Eppa Rixey
21. Frank Chance
22. Amos Russie
23. Earle Combs
24. Hack Wilson
25. Tony Lazzeri
26.Harry Hooper
27. Dave Bancroft
28. Elmer Flick
29. Bobby Wallace
30. Tony Perez
July 01, 2005 at 03:44PM View BBCode
Top 30 Non Hall of Famers actually in the Hall of Fame1. Chick Hafey
2. Bid McPhee
3. Ross Youngs
4. Jesse Haines
5. Red Schoendienst
6. Rick Farrell
7. Tommy McCarthy
8. Phil Rizzuto
9. Joe Tinker
10. Waite Hoyt
11. George Kell
12. Earl Averill
13. Catfish Hunter
14. Hal Newhouser
15. Vic Willis
16. George Kelly
17. Jim Bottomley
18. Johnny Evers
19. Richie Ashburn
20. Eppa Rixey
21. Frank Chance
22. Amos Russie
23. Earle Combs
24. Hack Wilson
25. Tony Lazzeri
26.Harry Hooper
27. Dave Bancroft
28. Elmer Flick
29. Bobby Wallace
30. Tony Perez
folifan19
I agree that Tony is iffy as a HOFer, but as a 30 year Reds fan, and having been at the game Tony tied Cepeda's record, I gotta defend him.
July 01, 2005 at 04:28PM View BBCode
Do you have a link to that list, or did you make it up. If there is a link, I'd like to go there.I agree that Tony is iffy as a HOFer, but as a 30 year Reds fan, and having been at the game Tony tied Cepeda's record, I gotta defend him.
barterer2002
July 01, 2005 at 04:33PM View BBCode
I just made it up without too much work. Feel free to defend him but I don't see why tying Orlando Cepeda for most home runs by a latin player should get him into the hall any more than Hidecki Matsui having the most home runs for a Japanese player gets him in. Yes I realize that there have been more latin players than Japanese players but the point is, he should be a Hall of Famer for what he did, not for the color of his skin. He's certainly not the worst Hall of Famer out there (I came up with 29 that were worse in my book) but I'd put all these guys in the margainal category. You could probably make a list of 30 guys not in the HOF that deserve it as much if not more than anybody on this list but as we've stated before, lowest common denominator lists are flawed to begin with.
FuriousGiorge
July 01, 2005 at 04:57PM View BBCode
There are players on your list that I would defend as good HOF choices. Richie Ashburn deserves his spot.
folifan19
July 01, 2005 at 05:21PM View BBCode
No barterer, skin color should have nothing to do with it. And in Tony's case, likely didn't. As Furious said, he rode in as a member of The Big Red Machine. Which I agree with completly. If one member of the BRM that isn't a HOFer that I would vote to take Tony's spot would be Davey Concepcion. His hitting #'s are better (without having compared them) than Ozzie Smith, which offsets the fact that he's just a tick below Ozzie in fielding skills. As everyone is no less than a tick below Ozzie fielding wise.
krusecontrol
The first time someone mentioned him to me as possibly HOF worthy, I thought it was ridiculous.
But the more I've looked at it, the more I've come to the belief that he very well could be in the Hall some day.
Who were the best 2B in his era?
Quick snapshot of his numbers:
4,200 R
2,600+ hits
560 doubles
230 HR
400 SB
1,000 RBI
.435 slg
.373 OBP
4,000 TB
7-time All-Star
4 GG
top 10 in MVP voting - 3 Xs
July 01, 2005 at 06:03PM View BBCode
since we spent so much time talking about Edgar ... what about Craig Biggio?The first time someone mentioned him to me as possibly HOF worthy, I thought it was ridiculous.
But the more I've looked at it, the more I've come to the belief that he very well could be in the Hall some day.
Who were the best 2B in his era?
Quick snapshot of his numbers:
4,200 R
2,600+ hits
560 doubles
230 HR
400 SB
1,000 RBI
.435 slg
.373 OBP
4,000 TB
7-time All-Star
4 GG
top 10 in MVP voting - 3 Xs
whiskybear
July 01, 2005 at 06:05PM View BBCode
I'll give you a shiny half-dollar, Little Johnny, if you'll go back and look up Biggio's career runs scored.
krusecontrol
Who were the best 2B?
How many 2B would deserve to get in from this 15-year period?
Ryno overlaps this period, and he's in.
As discussed before, Alomar will most likely be in
who else ...
July 01, 2005 at 06:05PM View BBCode
Let's say Biggio's era was 1985-2000+.Who were the best 2B?
How many 2B would deserve to get in from this 15-year period?
Ryno overlaps this period, and he's in.
As discussed before, Alomar will most likely be in
who else ...
krusecontrol
July 01, 2005 at 06:08PM View BBCode
sorry about that - don't know where I got his Run total - it's more like 1,600+, good for top 40 all-time
whiskybear
July 01, 2005 at 06:09PM View BBCode
However, even if he is short of the magic 4,200 career runs scored marker, he does belong in the Hall.
folifan19
Jeff Kent comes to mind, but only as a possibility.
July 01, 2005 at 06:10PM View BBCode
what about Pokey Reese:lol::lol::lol:Jeff Kent comes to mind, but only as a possibility.
krusecontrol
July 01, 2005 at 06:13PM View BBCode
Looks like, with his 47 R this season, Biggio is right at 1650, tied for 28th with Big Red Machiner Joe "I hate Pete Rose" Morgan
krusecontrol
1040 R
1910 H
430 2B
300 HR
1200 RBI
.505 slg
.352 OBP
1 (very questionable) MVP
no GG
4-time A-S
top 10 MVP - 5 Xs
Jeff Kent???? I spit on Jeff Kent!!!
July 01, 2005 at 06:19PM View BBCode
Kent's #s (thankfully) don't merit a pass to Cooperstown:1040 R
1910 H
430 2B
300 HR
1200 RBI
.505 slg
.352 OBP
1 (very questionable) MVP
no GG
4-time A-S
top 10 MVP - 5 Xs