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Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 09:14PM View BBCode
You know what, add to my list: [Everyone who has played for the Astros except Ken Caminiti]
dirtdevil
February 27, 2010 at 09:17PM View BBCode
i think rafael landestoy should be on the list for reals. that name just kind of rolls off the tongue.
shep1582
Ashby had a few good seasons with the stick, and was a good catcher. He's terrific at the mike, too. He wouldn't be a terrible nomination, but, like Puhl, would be buried outside the top ten in this group.
You forgot Larry Milbourne, Jeff Leonard, Gregg Gross, Art Howe, Enos Cabell, Glenn Davis, and Billy Hatcher.
You left off George Bell Jesse Barfield, and Lloyd Moseby. And Mulliniks as your utility guy? Tom Henke? For shame.
I ain't taking any of this criticism personally, but Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome. And the Spec Richardson thing. Never getting into the playoffs together because of that moron kept the rest of the baseball nation from seeing them more than once a year, if that.
Bill James did a list in one of his yearly abstracts about the best OF's of all time. That group of Astros, in different configurations, made the top 25 several times. In fact, the article started because of the Toronto OF, and where they fit alltime. It was a fun analysis. Cobb, Speaker and whoever made the list a bunch, Rice, Lynn and Evans did too, as well as Toronto's guys. I'll see if I can find it online.
February 27, 2010 at 09:29PM View BBCode
Walling was a super bench player. Never could hit lefties, though. Landestoy sucked. Puhl was a good ballplayer, and a fan fav. I'd never mention him in the same breath as these guys though.Ashby had a few good seasons with the stick, and was a good catcher. He's terrific at the mike, too. He wouldn't be a terrible nomination, but, like Puhl, would be buried outside the top ten in this group.
You forgot Larry Milbourne, Jeff Leonard, Gregg Gross, Art Howe, Enos Cabell, Glenn Davis, and Billy Hatcher.
You left off George Bell Jesse Barfield, and Lloyd Moseby. And Mulliniks as your utility guy? Tom Henke? For shame.
I ain't taking any of this criticism personally, but Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome. And the Spec Richardson thing. Never getting into the playoffs together because of that moron kept the rest of the baseball nation from seeing them more than once a year, if that.
Bill James did a list in one of his yearly abstracts about the best OF's of all time. That group of Astros, in different configurations, made the top 25 several times. In fact, the article started because of the Toronto OF, and where they fit alltime. It was a fun analysis. Cobb, Speaker and whoever made the list a bunch, Rice, Lynn and Evans did too, as well as Toronto's guys. I'll see if I can find it online.
tworoosters
Simmons vs. Parrish the only advantage Parrish has is isolated power in the form of home runs, Simmons has a significant advantage in average, OBP, OPS and OPS+ (like 183% using Tyles math) plus all the counting numbers except homers.
As for defense, Simmons had a lousy arm but he was solid technically and called a good game, Boone was not earth shattering defensively and was, quite simply, a terrible hitter - like a game killing bad hitter from 1979 on.
Munson won an MVP, and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting on two other occasions, made seven All Star teams, was a Rookie of the year and has a career OPS+ better than Parrish or even Freehan . Maybe Munson only had "3 stellar years" but that's 3 more than Boone .
As for your opinion on Porter, it's noted .
February 27, 2010 at 09:32PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by tworoosters
Originally posted by dirtdevil
he does have two tigers catchers on the list, both of whom were better than matt nokes.
Neither of whom, however, were as good as Simmons, Munson or Elston Howard .
i looked at simmons when i made my own list. i didn't think he was as good offensively as parrish or as good defensively as boone. munson really had only the 3 stellar years. howard i just gapped on. and porter i always found overrated, personally.
Simmons vs. Parrish the only advantage Parrish has is isolated power in the form of home runs, Simmons has a significant advantage in average, OBP, OPS and OPS+ (like 183% using Tyles math) plus all the counting numbers except homers.
As for defense, Simmons had a lousy arm but he was solid technically and called a good game, Boone was not earth shattering defensively and was, quite simply, a terrible hitter - like a game killing bad hitter from 1979 on.
Munson won an MVP, and finished in the top 10 in MVP voting on two other occasions, made seven All Star teams, was a Rookie of the year and has a career OPS+ better than Parrish or even Freehan . Maybe Munson only had "3 stellar years" but that's 3 more than Boone .
As for your opinion on Porter, it's noted .
FuriousGiorge
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list?
February 27, 2010 at 09:35PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome.
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list?
tworoosters
Thanks for the semantics lesson .
Good luck tonight in the bronze medal game.
February 27, 2010 at 09:36PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Originally posted by tworoosters
Porter was really, really good but his average sucked at a time when that was very important and he just looked weird .
You mean, at a time when it was thought to be very important. Batting average is just as worthwhile today as it was 20, 30 and 40 years ago. Same with OBP and SLG. (I think that's what you're getting at, anyway, but, you know, the Santo thing.)
Thanks for the semantics lesson .
Good luck tonight in the bronze medal game.
shep1582
I always thought Porter was underrated. Why do you think he's overrated, Deke?
February 27, 2010 at 09:37PM View BBCode
Freehan played in the 60's. I'd say he was pretty close to Munson. I'm not the math genius Tyles is, though.I always thought Porter was underrated. Why do you think he's overrated, Deke?
dirtdevil
February 27, 2010 at 09:44PM View BBCode
boone isn't on my team for his offence. boone wasn't on any team for his offence. looking at simmons vs parrish again, the numbers do seem to be more in simmons favour. he remains a circus waiting to happen on the bases though. i like thurman munson as much as the next guy, but even with a full career, he's not as good as many of the other names already mentioned. in fact a full career would almost certainly have made his rate stats significantly worse- he was pretty much done as a top hitter by that point. darrell porter was a .247 hitter without much power who played at best average defence.
dirtdevil
man crush.
(also, he's the pitching equivalent of dickie thon)
February 27, 2010 at 09:45PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Originally posted by shep1582
Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome.
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list?
man crush.
(also, he's the pitching equivalent of dickie thon)
shep1582
because he was great pitcher. check out his 1980 home/road splits. He was the best pitcher in baseball, and was on the way to a CY Young. he was 3rd the year before and 4th the year before that. He'd struck out over 300 two years running. In 79, he led the league in ERA, and it was 2.98 on the road. He was not a player who stats were built on his home park. He was dominating. Anyone who saw him was in awe. He was doing what Randy Johnson did once he got it all together.
His stats may have been helped by the dome, but not so much as to make him not great, like Jim Rice.
I'll be willing to drop him from the list once we have 5 guys who were demonstrably better, but I have no problem including him. the fact that racism played a huge role in his injury is beyond dispute. He complained about pain in his right arm despite pitching lights out. Astros management basically said "The nig is lying." It was shameful. There are several good articles about it online, and he won a huge settlement over their mishandling of this situation. Had a white guy on the team been in the same situation, a stroke probably would have been averted.
Maybe he doesn't belong on the list because he almost died at age 30, but he is the greatest pitcher I ever saw, especially those last 3 seasons. Better than Gooden or Clemens or Seaver or Johnson. If I remember right, he 1 hit the Dodgers TWICE in 1980 when they had a very good lineup.
That's why.
February 27, 2010 at 09:59PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Originally posted by shep1582
Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome.
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list?
because he was great pitcher. check out his 1980 home/road splits. He was the best pitcher in baseball, and was on the way to a CY Young. he was 3rd the year before and 4th the year before that. He'd struck out over 300 two years running. In 79, he led the league in ERA, and it was 2.98 on the road. He was not a player who stats were built on his home park. He was dominating. Anyone who saw him was in awe. He was doing what Randy Johnson did once he got it all together.
His stats may have been helped by the dome, but not so much as to make him not great, like Jim Rice.
I'll be willing to drop him from the list once we have 5 guys who were demonstrably better, but I have no problem including him. the fact that racism played a huge role in his injury is beyond dispute. He complained about pain in his right arm despite pitching lights out. Astros management basically said "The nig is lying." It was shameful. There are several good articles about it online, and he won a huge settlement over their mishandling of this situation. Had a white guy on the team been in the same situation, a stroke probably would have been averted.
Maybe he doesn't belong on the list because he almost died at age 30, but he is the greatest pitcher I ever saw, especially those last 3 seasons. Better than Gooden or Clemens or Seaver or Johnson. If I remember right, he 1 hit the Dodgers TWICE in 1980 when they had a very good lineup.
That's why.
Tyles
SP Bert Blyleven
SP Tommy John
SP David Cone
SP Bret Saberhagen
SP Jimmy Key
RP John Wetteland
RP Dan Quisenberry
RP Tom Henke
RP Jesse Orosco
C Ted Simmons
1B Gil Hodges
2B Lou Whitaker
3B Dick Allen
SS Barry Larkin
LF Albert Belle
CF Fred Lynn
RF Frank Howard
DH Fred McGriff
February 27, 2010 at 10:01PM View BBCode
I guess I'll do pitchers, too:SP Bert Blyleven
SP Tommy John
SP David Cone
SP Bret Saberhagen
SP Jimmy Key
RP John Wetteland
RP Dan Quisenberry
RP Tom Henke
RP Jesse Orosco
C Ted Simmons
1B Gil Hodges
2B Lou Whitaker
3B Dick Allen
SS Barry Larkin
LF Albert Belle
CF Fred Lynn
RF Frank Howard
DH Fred McGriff
shep1582
[quote][i]Originally posted by FuriousGiorge[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by shep1582[/i]
Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome. [/quote]
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list? [/quote]
man crush.
(also, he's the pitching equivalent of dickie thon) [/quote]
right on your first point.
wrong on your second.
Dickie Thon had one season where he was among the top 5 SS's in MLB. That horse is dead, but by all means, keep beating it.
Richard was among the very best pitchers in baseball for 3 years running, and was beyond all doubt the best in 1980. He was a great pitcher, not on the verge of being great like Thon.
Fail.
February 27, 2010 at 10:05PM View formatted
You are viewing the raw post code; this allows you to copy a message with BBCode formatting intact.
[quote][i]Originally posted by dirtdevil[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by FuriousGiorge[/i]
[quote][i]Originally posted by shep1582[/i]
Astros hitters (like Wynn, Cruz and Cedeno and Watson) always get short shrift because they played in the dome. [/quote]
So why, exactly, is JR Richard on your list? [/quote]
man crush.
(also, he's the pitching equivalent of dickie thon) [/quote]
right on your first point.
wrong on your second.
Dickie Thon had one season where he was among the top 5 SS's in MLB. That horse is dead, but by all means, keep beating it.
Richard was among the very best pitchers in baseball for 3 years running, and was beyond all doubt the best in 1980. He was a great pitcher, not on the verge of being great like Thon.
Fail.
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 10:05PM View BBCode
Why don't you go ahead and give us the math lesson, Roosters. Prick.
Tyles
Not really a semantics lesson. Just don't talk stupid, is all.
Thank you. And believe me, an Olympic medal for Slovakia is going to mean a helluva lot more to them than whatever you guys do tomorrow.
February 27, 2010 at 10:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Thanks for the semantics lesson .
Not really a semantics lesson. Just don't talk stupid, is all.
Good luck tonight in the bronze medal game.
Thank you. And believe me, an Olympic medal for Slovakia is going to mean a helluva lot more to them than whatever you guys do tomorrow.
tworoosters
Given how awful Boone was offensively he would have had to have been the greatest defensive catcher of all time to be placed ahead of Simmons, Munson or Howard (or even Porter IMO) and there's no evidence to indicate he was.
Porter had a career OPS+ better than Parrish, who is on your team for offense.
The bottom line is none of this is cut and dried but Bob Boone shouldn't be on any of these teams, period.
http://www.thebaseballpage.com is a site that has lots of rankings etc. (Tyles would be happy to know they like Ron Santo a lot) - they rank Boone 31st all time among catchers.
February 27, 2010 at 10:13PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
boone isn't on my team for his offence. boone wasn't on any team for his offence.
Given how awful Boone was offensively he would have had to have been the greatest defensive catcher of all time to be placed ahead of Simmons, Munson or Howard (or even Porter IMO) and there's no evidence to indicate he was.
Originally posted by dirtdevil
darrell porter was a .247 hitter without much power who played at best average defence.
Porter had a career OPS+ better than Parrish, who is on your team for offense.
The bottom line is none of this is cut and dried but Bob Boone shouldn't be on any of these teams, period.
http://www.thebaseballpage.com is a site that has lots of rankings etc. (Tyles would be happy to know they like Ron Santo a lot) - they rank Boone 31st all time among catchers.
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 10:14PM View BBCode
(Maybe that was a little harsh -- I just don't want anyone to get the impression there is anything other than open hostility there.)
Tyles
Three years is simply not enough to put a guy with a 107-71 record and a 108 career ERA+ into the conversation. Somebody else brought up Dwight Gooden. Well, in 1985 Doc authored one of the very best seasons by a pitcher in MLB history. And he pitched at a high level for a half-dozen seasons. His case is much better than J.R.'s, and yet he's not making your list.
February 27, 2010 at 10:33PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
Richard was among the very best pitchers in baseball for 3 years running, and was beyond all doubt the best in 1980. He was a great pitcher, not on the verge of being great like Thon.
Fail.
Three years is simply not enough to put a guy with a 107-71 record and a 108 career ERA+ into the conversation. Somebody else brought up Dwight Gooden. Well, in 1985 Doc authored one of the very best seasons by a pitcher in MLB history. And he pitched at a high level for a half-dozen seasons. His case is much better than J.R.'s, and yet he's not making your list.
shep1582
Torre should never be listed as a catcher, IMO (that site has him at 15).
Herzog basically called him the very worst catcher he'd ever seen.
He sure could hit, though, and I got no problem putting him on the team as a backup at C,1B, and 3B.
Al Oliver is listed as a CF on their lists?
Jim Rice is listed as a better LF than Howard.
epic fail.
February 27, 2010 at 10:35PM View BBCode
good site, tr.Torre should never be listed as a catcher, IMO (that site has him at 15).
Herzog basically called him the very worst catcher he'd ever seen.
He sure could hit, though, and I got no problem putting him on the team as a backup at C,1B, and 3B.
Al Oliver is listed as a CF on their lists?
Jim Rice is listed as a better LF than Howard.
epic fail.
Tyles
And Steve Carlton might have something to say about that.
(Look, regardless of the circumstances, J.R. pitched just 113 innings in 1980. Carlton pitched 304, with similar rate stats. And as much as you cite the Astro Dome in deflating the stats of your pet Astros hitters, you need to remember that it did just as much to inflate J.R.'s numbers.)
February 27, 2010 at 10:40PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
Richard ... was beyond all doubt the best in 1980.
And Steve Carlton might have something to say about that.
(Look, regardless of the circumstances, J.R. pitched just 113 innings in 1980. Carlton pitched 304, with similar rate stats. And as much as you cite the Astro Dome in deflating the stats of your pet Astros hitters, you need to remember that it did just as much to inflate J.R.'s numbers.)
shep1582
Doc's undoing was his own making. Richard got screwed by a bigoted organization. Again, (sheesh) I'll make a list of the guys listed by everyone and we'll put it to a vote.
Richard was a great pitcher, but his career was shortened considerably. Maybe I'll start a thread of "guys who had great careers derailed by tragedy", but my points about JR are good ones. Maybe he doesn't make the final list, but not because he wasn't a truly dominating pitcher.
(and, man, how many times do I have to defend my idiotic list? I threw it out here so we could have fun with it. Gooden might make the final list. I have no problems with anyone challenging my list, and in retro, I shoulda taken more time making it. All Astros from my formative years should be in the HOF.)
February 27, 2010 at 10:44PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Originally posted by shep1582
Richard was among the very best pitchers in baseball for 3 years running, and was beyond all doubt the best in 1980. He was a great pitcher, not on the verge of being great like Thon.
Fail.
Three years is simply not enough to put a guy with a 107-71 record and a 108 career ERA+ into the conversation. Somebody else brought up Dwight Gooden. Well, in 1985 Doc authored one of the very best seasons by a pitcher in MLB history. And he pitched at a high level for a half-dozen seasons. His case is much better than J.R.'s, and yet he's not making your list.
Doc's undoing was his own making. Richard got screwed by a bigoted organization. Again, (sheesh) I'll make a list of the guys listed by everyone and we'll put it to a vote.
Richard was a great pitcher, but his career was shortened considerably. Maybe I'll start a thread of "guys who had great careers derailed by tragedy", but my points about JR are good ones. Maybe he doesn't make the final list, but not because he wasn't a truly dominating pitcher.
(and, man, how many times do I have to defend my idiotic list? I threw it out here so we could have fun with it. Gooden might make the final list. I have no problems with anyone challenging my list, and in retro, I shoulda taken more time making it. All Astros from my formative years should be in the HOF.)
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 10:48PM View BBCode
(As much as I'd love to have Harold Reynolds at second base and Alvin Davis at first, I have to consider that maybe they weren't as awesome as I thought when I was 8.)
shep1582
I axed him, and Lefty says JR was better until the stroke.
Check out the All star game in 1980.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS198007080.shtml
JR was the starter, not Steve-o.
February 27, 2010 at 10:50PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Originally posted by shep1582
Richard ... was beyond all doubt the best in 1980.
And Steve Carlton might have something to say about that.
(Look, regardless of the circumstances, J.R. pitched just 113 innings in 1980. Carlton pitched 304, with similar rate stats. And as much as you cite the Astro Dome in deflating the stats of your pet Astros hitters, you need to remember that it did just as much to inflate J.R.'s numbers.)
I axed him, and Lefty says JR was better until the stroke.
Check out the All star game in 1980.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NLS/NLS198007080.shtml
JR was the starter, not Steve-o.
shep1582
shut it.
February 27, 2010 at 10:52PM View BBCode
I was in HS. All the astros from that era were teh awesome.shut it.
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 10:52PM View BBCode
We're not using "Who started the all-star game" as a criteria. We're not doing that.