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barterer2002
So the first group of 10 has 3 HOFers (Klein, Mize and Snider), 1 lock (Piazza) and 1 marginal HOFer (Edgar-who if he had played the field would be in)
The second group has 5 HOFers (Mantle, Rice, Williams, Snider and Mathews) 1 lock (Bagwell) and 3 marginals (Williams, walker and Guerrero).
Plus the players you're looking at are mostly OFers whereas Chipper is clearly one of the top 5 players to every play 3B in the history of the game (behind Schmidt, Brett and Mathews but in company with Robinson, Collins, Traynor, Boggs etc for that 4th slot) He's clearly a lock and was a lock last year as well.
March 09, 2010 at 06:10PM View BBCode
Originally posted by patred
In a debate last year on another forum, I looked up Chipper's stats at baseball-reference.com, and they were most similar to (copy/paste from that thread) Larry Walker, Duke Snider, Moises Alou, Ellis Burks, Mike Piazza, Bob Johnson, Jim Edmonds, Chuck Klein, Johnny Mize and Edgar Martinez. Good company, but doesn't make him an instant-lock.
So now I look him up, and he's most similar to Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, Duke Snider, Billy Williams, Eddie Mathews, Jim Rice, Vladimir Guerrero, Dwight Evans, Bernie Williams and Mickey Mantle. I guess that 18 HR and 71 RBI went a long way, or somebody at baseball-reference.com is a Chipper fan. :)
I'll just move Bouncing Bob over to 3B and Adam LaRoche into the starting lineup. :)
[Edited on 3-9-2010 by patred]
So the first group of 10 has 3 HOFers (Klein, Mize and Snider), 1 lock (Piazza) and 1 marginal HOFer (Edgar-who if he had played the field would be in)
The second group has 5 HOFers (Mantle, Rice, Williams, Snider and Mathews) 1 lock (Bagwell) and 3 marginals (Williams, walker and Guerrero).
Plus the players you're looking at are mostly OFers whereas Chipper is clearly one of the top 5 players to every play 3B in the history of the game (behind Schmidt, Brett and Mathews but in company with Robinson, Collins, Traynor, Boggs etc for that 4th slot) He's clearly a lock and was a lock last year as well.
shep1582
that wood be more grown up.
Coen grown up.
I think being the best 3B of your generation is a pretty good credential for HOF. I don't watch him on a regular basis, but I didn't think he had a bad defense rap.
March 09, 2010 at 06:19PM View BBCode
wood chipper jones?that wood be more grown up.
Coen grown up.
I think being the best 3B of your generation is a pretty good credential for HOF. I don't watch him on a regular basis, but I didn't think he had a bad defense rap.
tm4559
sorry. can't we just go ahead and say, chone is the finest thing that ever played baseball?
March 09, 2010 at 06:32PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Originally posted by tm4559
it is like the best third baseman (excluding roid boy rodriguez*) since michael jack schmidt, for christ sake.
(Besides Chone Figgins, you mean.)
sorry. can't we just go ahead and say, chone is the finest thing that ever played baseball?
Tyles
March 09, 2010 at 06:35PM View BBCode
Only if we acknowledge that, were he to choose another field -- architecture, neurobiology, hockey -- he'd be the finest there, as well.
tm4559
March 09, 2010 at 06:38PM View BBCode
that much went without saying. chone is actually managing my portfolio, providing nursing care for my father, dating Happy's mom, and tackling the Greek Debt crisis in his spare time.
patred
March 09, 2010 at 06:39PM View BBCode
I should know better than to post year-old opinions on a site full of super nerds.
sycophantman
March 09, 2010 at 06:40PM View BBCode
Chone Figgins? I think that's the guy that fixed my internet connection a few months back, great guy. What can't he do?
tm4559
March 09, 2010 at 06:45PM View BBCode
brain surgery, astro physics, astrology, concrete finishing, keynesian economics, you name it. all of this, and more, chone is the master. only the home run is beyond his capabilities.
sycophantman
March 09, 2010 at 06:51PM View BBCode
He doesn't hit home runs because it would be needlessly overbearing and arrogant.
tm4559
(the rumour is, after chone leads the mariners to world series glory, he is going to retire, sign a contract as a point guard with the knicks, and bring a title there.)
March 09, 2010 at 06:55PM View BBCode
over the top, yes. not worth it.(the rumour is, after chone leads the mariners to world series glory, he is going to retire, sign a contract as a point guard with the knicks, and bring a title there.)
cowboymatt43
Baseball people periodically rate him with Fs and Ds when it comes to defense. His career fielding percentage proves that they aren't necessarily wrong (.956), though they may be a bit hyperbolic. Of his 13 seasons in which he played 3B, Chipper's FP was below the league average seven times. In other words, Chipper is an average, at best, MLB 3B.
But when you compare him to the other all-time greats like Schmidt (.961), Robinson (.971), Boggs (.965), Brett (.970), etc, he really stinks with the glove, relatively speaking. Even Eddie Matthews was better (.959) and Matthews often gets the he-couldn't-play-defense-very-well rap.
[Edited on 3-9-2010 by cowboymatt43]
March 09, 2010 at 07:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
wood chipper jones?
that wood be more grown up.
Coen grown up.
I think being the best 3B of your generation is a pretty good credential for HOF. I don't watch him on a regular basis, but I didn't think he had a bad defense rap.
Baseball people periodically rate him with Fs and Ds when it comes to defense. His career fielding percentage proves that they aren't necessarily wrong (.956), though they may be a bit hyperbolic. Of his 13 seasons in which he played 3B, Chipper's FP was below the league average seven times. In other words, Chipper is an average, at best, MLB 3B.
But when you compare him to the other all-time greats like Schmidt (.961), Robinson (.971), Boggs (.965), Brett (.970), etc, he really stinks with the glove, relatively speaking. Even Eddie Matthews was better (.959) and Matthews often gets the he-couldn't-play-defense-very-well rap.
[Edited on 3-9-2010 by cowboymatt43]
shep1582
his lifetime is .953, the league's is exactly the same.
his range factor, career, is 2.34, the league's is 2.27.
I'd say he's an average 3Bman, and probably gets criticized because he ain't great. he's played some SS (not well), and you don't stick a guy out there if he's a terrible fielder. you do it if you think maybe he can handle it, and his stick will more than make up for the glove. no one thought Ripken could play SS, but he proved a big, slow white guy could. and I'm sure the Braves thought Larry MIGHT be able to, but ended that experiment pretty quickly. he played 38 games there in '96 and only made 4 errors, turning 27 DP's.
March 09, 2010 at 07:43PM View BBCode
FP ain't everything.his lifetime is .953, the league's is exactly the same.
his range factor, career, is 2.34, the league's is 2.27.
I'd say he's an average 3Bman, and probably gets criticized because he ain't great. he's played some SS (not well), and you don't stick a guy out there if he's a terrible fielder. you do it if you think maybe he can handle it, and his stick will more than make up for the glove. no one thought Ripken could play SS, but he proved a big, slow white guy could. and I'm sure the Braves thought Larry MIGHT be able to, but ended that experiment pretty quickly. he played 38 games there in '96 and only made 4 errors, turning 27 DP's.
cowboymatt43
~~EDIT~~ Oops. Replaced one "picture" with "fielder."
[Edited on 3-10-2010 by cowboymatt43]
March 10, 2010 at 01:58AM View BBCode
That was my point. In the wider picture, Chipper is an average fielder. But when you narrow the vista to just the best of the best 3Bs, he's certainly toward the bottom of the list.~~EDIT~~ Oops. Replaced one "picture" with "fielder."
[Edited on 3-10-2010 by cowboymatt43]
Tyles
Parse this.
March 10, 2010 at 03:39AM View BBCode
Originally posted by cowboymatt43
In the wider picture, Chipper is an average picture.
Parse this.
FuriousGiorge
In the wider; picture Chipper. Is? An average picture.
March 10, 2010 at 03:46AM View BBCode
Needs more punctuation, of course.In the wider; picture Chipper. Is? An average picture.
Tyles
March 10, 2010 at 03:48AM View BBCode
(I am pronouncing "wider" as though it is German; hence, "veeder.")
shep1582
In a wider chipper, a picture is an average picture.
hence
The wider the chipper, the averager the picture.
or
Picture the average chipper, wider.
March 10, 2010 at 06:43AM View BBCode
I think he meantIn a wider chipper, a picture is an average picture.
hence
The wider the chipper, the averager the picture.
or
Picture the average chipper, wider.
cowboymatt43
I edited the post to correct my faux pas.
March 10, 2010 at 04:11PM View BBCode
Wow. You guys can real run with anything!I edited the post to correct my faux pas.
tm4559
we don't care how good he can field, cowboy (i mean, brandon inge can field a mortal ton. it does not make us put him on our list of awesomes thirds basemens, becauses ours awesomes thirds basemens cans hits.)
March 10, 2010 at 07:16PM View BBCode
Originally posted by cowboymatt43
Wow. You guys can real run with anything!
I edited the post to correct my faux pas.
we don't care how good he can field, cowboy (i mean, brandon inge can field a mortal ton. it does not make us put him on our list of awesomes thirds basemens, becauses ours awesomes thirds basemens cans hits.)
Jon
Total Zone (a defensive stat that actually uses play-by-play data unlike FP and Range Factor, which is slightly less shitty than FP), rates Chipper Jones at [url=http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/j/jonec004.htm]-25 runs for his career.[/url] [url=http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=97&position=3B]UZR isn't kind to him either.[/url] So, the reputation is deserved--he kinda sucked at defense. Still, his 76 WAR (Wins Above Replacement, a much improved version of WARP) puts him in the company of [url=http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500.htm]Robin Yount, Ken Griffey Jr., Rod Carew, Jeff Bagwell, and Frank Thomas.[/url]
In other words, Chipper Jones is a HOFer, and people who think otherwise are dumb.
March 10, 2010 at 07:21PM View BBCode
Fielding percentage? Range Factor? Hmm. Let's look at stats that don't suck.Total Zone (a defensive stat that actually uses play-by-play data unlike FP and Range Factor, which is slightly less shitty than FP), rates Chipper Jones at [url=http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/j/jonec004.htm]-25 runs for his career.[/url] [url=http://www.fangraphs.com/statss.aspx?playerid=97&position=3B]UZR isn't kind to him either.[/url] So, the reputation is deserved--he kinda sucked at defense. Still, his 76 WAR (Wins Above Replacement, a much improved version of WARP) puts him in the company of [url=http://www.baseballprojection.com/war/top500.htm]Robin Yount, Ken Griffey Jr., Rod Carew, Jeff Bagwell, and Frank Thomas.[/url]
In other words, Chipper Jones is a HOFer, and people who think otherwise are dumb.
Tyles
March 10, 2010 at 07:33PM View BBCode
Wow, Chone Figgins has become so ubiquitous there's a stat named after him. He's a latter-day Bill Pecota!
(Eric)
((Ha, I just saw the CHONE thing. That's awesome.))
March 10, 2010 at 07:50PM View BBCode
(That stat agrees with me that Michael Young was the suck at short stop. Yay!)((Ha, I just saw the CHONE thing. That's awesome.))