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shep1582
I win.
go to your room.
February 27, 2010 at 10:54PM View BBCode
you brought it up. JR was considered, before the stroke, as the best SP in the NL that season.I win.
go to your room.
tworoosters
Sure.
Bronze = thanks for coming out .
Gordon = Hall of Fame
Santo = thanks for coming out
tossing out profanity = insecurity
125 = 25 % greater than 120
117 = 183 % greater than 106
Please note the last two are examples of the "new math according to Tyles" .
[Edited on 2-27-2010 by tworoosters]
February 27, 2010 at 11:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
Why don't you go ahead and give us the math lesson, Roosters. Prick.
Sure.
Bronze = thanks for coming out .
Gordon = Hall of Fame
Santo = thanks for coming out
tossing out profanity = insecurity
125 = 25 % greater than 120
117 = 183 % greater than 106
Please note the last two are examples of the "new math according to Tyles" .
[Edited on 2-27-2010 by tworoosters]
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 11:02PM View BBCode
LaMarr Hoyt started the All-Star game in 1985. I guess that makes him better than Dwight Gooden.
Tyles
February 27, 2010 at 11:08PM View BBCode
That's cute. Now do the one about how batting average used to be important.
shep1582
now you're being giorge-like.
you said Carlton needed to be consulted.
I said JR was the best pitcher in the NL in 1980.
JR started the all star game, which usually goes to the best SP in the league that season. I'm not saying JR was better than Carlton, or that JR is a HOFer.
I'm saying (listen carefully) that Richard was a great pitcher at the time his career ended. And that I have no problem putting him on my list.
Go to your room and argue with roosters.
February 27, 2010 at 11:09PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
LaMarr Hoyt started the All-Star game in 1985. I guess that makes him better than Dwight Gooden.
now you're being giorge-like.
you said Carlton needed to be consulted.
I said JR was the best pitcher in the NL in 1980.
JR started the all star game, which usually goes to the best SP in the league that season. I'm not saying JR was better than Carlton, or that JR is a HOFer.
I'm saying (listen carefully) that Richard was a great pitcher at the time his career ended. And that I have no problem putting him on my list.
Go to your room and argue with roosters.
tworoosters
Torre played more games at catcher than anywhere else and Oliver played more games in CF (840) than any other position.
They had to list them somewhere so the position they played the most games at seems logical.
February 27, 2010 at 11:22PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
good site, tr.
Torre should never be listed as a catcher, IMO (that site has him at 15).
Al Oliver is listed as a CF on their lists?
Torre played more games at catcher than anywhere else and Oliver played more games in CF (840) than any other position.
They had to list them somewhere so the position they played the most games at seems logical.
shep1582
Was Oliver overmatched in CF like Torre was at C? I never saw either of them that much, being before espn and all.
(I'm assuming you know because he played in Montreal.)
February 27, 2010 at 11:31PM View BBCode
I know.Was Oliver overmatched in CF like Torre was at C? I never saw either of them that much, being before espn and all.
(I'm assuming you know because he played in Montreal.)
BKCUBS13
February 27, 2010 at 11:58PM View BBCode
For catcher, how about Ted Simmons, Elston Howard, or even Sherm Lollar. Did anyone mention Lance Parrish(probably).
shep1582
all those guys have been mentioned (cept maybe lollar).
parrish is in the original post.
go to your room.
February 28, 2010 at 12:01AM View BBCode
you're not even reading this thread, are you?all those guys have been mentioned (cept maybe lollar).
parrish is in the original post.
go to your room.
tworoosters
Oliver's an interesting case for the HOF. Oliver was one of the guys supposedly shut out during the collusion era and although he had an off year in 1985, and was by then 38, he may well have reached 3,000 hits if he had played another 2 seasons.
As a side note I'm taking dibs on Pedro Guerrero for 3B on my "best of the rest" team.
February 28, 2010 at 12:13AM View BBCode
He was well past his CF days in Montreal but the research I've seen indicates he wasn't at all over matched in center, he apparently had a below average arm but solid range.Oliver's an interesting case for the HOF. Oliver was one of the guys supposedly shut out during the collusion era and although he had an off year in 1985, and was by then 38, he may well have reached 3,000 hits if he had played another 2 seasons.
As a side note I'm taking dibs on Pedro Guerrero for 3B on my "best of the rest" team.
tworoosters
You sir, are very late to this party .
February 28, 2010 at 12:14AM View BBCode
Originally posted by BKCUBS13
For catcher, how about Ted Simmons, Elston Howard, or even Sherm Lollar. Did anyone mention Lance Parrish(probably).
You sir, are very late to this party .
FuriousGiorge
February 28, 2010 at 12:36AM View BBCode
Yeah, I love Dave Brubeck, although your mileage may vary.
shep1582
dave brubeck is the suck.
doug drabek needs to be mentioned, though.
February 28, 2010 at 01:10AM View BBCode
you and the 46 errors he's gonna commit will be very happy, tr.dave brubeck is the suck.
doug drabek needs to be mentioned, though.
Tyles
(Goddamnit, shep.)
February 28, 2010 at 09:22AM View BBCode
Doug Drabek does not need to be mentioned.(Goddamnit, shep.)
albiez
February 28, 2010 at 09:42AM View BBCode
Just because shep is shep doesn't mean anyone should be disputing the fact that JR Richard was awesome, and basically the victim of callous and inept management. Can you guys stop doing that? Because it makes you look dumb and senselessly contrarian. I don't see shep saying that he should be in the Hall of Fame, just that he could have been that historically good over the course of his career, had he not run into the tragedy he did. And that is an entirely sensible thing to say, and one that I'm kind of surprised anyone would spend so much energy arguing against. He had a little bit of a late start to his career, so it was hardly certain, but he was an excellent, excellent pitcher.
Tyles
(Because, you know, he suffered a massive stroke at age 30 and never pitched again, and tough shit for him but, you know, that is a total bummer and he is totally the best pitcher whose career was cut short by a massive stroke one week after starting in the All-Star Game, which of course is the absolute zenith of a player's career. To start the All-Star Game.)
((You are part of the problem, you know that? Lol Astro Dome, sheeit.))
[Edited on 2-28-2010 by Tyles]
February 28, 2010 at 09:53AM View BBCode
It is pretty goddamned close to Dickie Thon, and the point is not that J.R. Richard sucks, it is that he is not one of the best non-HOF pitchers in baseball. And he is not.(Because, you know, he suffered a massive stroke at age 30 and never pitched again, and tough shit for him but, you know, that is a total bummer and he is totally the best pitcher whose career was cut short by a massive stroke one week after starting in the All-Star Game, which of course is the absolute zenith of a player's career. To start the All-Star Game.)
((You are part of the problem, you know that? Lol Astro Dome, sheeit.))
[Edited on 2-28-2010 by Tyles]
FuriousGiorge
February 28, 2010 at 03:21PM View BBCode
Sheppy is absolutely right that Astros hitters have been undervalued because of the Dome. But of course, any person who recognizes this must logically recognize that this is equally true in the opposite direction for Astros pitchers. The problem here is that Shep is well aware of the former (and touts it as a reason to include so many Astros) while discounting the latter. JR Richard gave up more than a run less at home than he did on the road, that is simply a fact.
Tyles
February 28, 2010 at 05:20PM View BBCode
Oh, I tried to lead him gently down that path, and you know what he told me? He told me that J.R. Richard started the All-Star Game. The All-Star Game, Craig.
shep1582
What both of you fail to acknowledge is that I have acknowledged the path you are trying to lead me down.
The final 2 seasons of his career, his road ERA was 2.98 and 1.88.
Acknowledge THAT.
I am not, for the 33rd time, campaigning for all the Astros on my list. I'm campaigning for ALL Astros who ever played. Get yer facts straight.
February 28, 2010 at 05:38PM View BBCode
I'm surrounded by incompetence. (and have a man crush on Reno.)What both of you fail to acknowledge is that I have acknowledged the path you are trying to lead me down.
The final 2 seasons of his career, his road ERA was 2.98 and 1.88.
Acknowledge THAT.
I am not, for the 33rd time, campaigning for all the Astros on my list. I'm campaigning for ALL Astros who ever played. Get yer facts straight.
Tyles
February 28, 2010 at 05:57PM View BBCode
And in 1979, when his road ERA was 2.98 (a half-run higher than his home ERA) his home/away WHIP splits were 0.990/1.211. And I see you've conveniently ignored '76, '77 and '78, all good seasons for J.R., when his splits (all home/away) were 1.96/3.80 and 1.192/1.393, 2.78/3.15 and 1.118/1.245, and 2.06/4.58 (!) and 1.048/1.439, respectively. So if you want to say that J.R. Richard is the tits based on 17 starts in 1980, I guess that's your hill to die on.
shep1582
I've acknowledged what you say. I've compared him to the Unit, in that he went from a guy who was inconsistent at best to being dominant. He was the tits in 1980, and I believe the last half of his career would have been Johnson-like. You don't have to believe it, it's a what if discussion, anywho...
My revised team:
SP:
JR
Dierker
Cuellar
Don Wilson
Mike Scott
RP:
Dave Smith
Doug Jones
Fred Gladding
Brad Lidge
C: Alan Ashby and Brad Ausmus (platoon)
1B: Bob Watson
2B: Doran
3B: Doug Rader
SS: Thon
LF: Cruz
CF: Cedeno
RF: Wynn
Bench:
C: Tony Eusebio
IF: Glenn Davis, Craig Reynolds, Denny Walling
OF: Rusty Staub, Greg Gross
This team would mop the floor with every team ever assembled.
February 28, 2010 at 06:17PM View BBCode
I've ignored nothing. His home/road stats before 79 reflect the dome's influence. And 79's were skewed to a lesser extent. They are pretty much in line with most pitcher's.I've acknowledged what you say. I've compared him to the Unit, in that he went from a guy who was inconsistent at best to being dominant. He was the tits in 1980, and I believe the last half of his career would have been Johnson-like. You don't have to believe it, it's a what if discussion, anywho...
My revised team:
SP:
JR
Dierker
Cuellar
Don Wilson
Mike Scott
RP:
Dave Smith
Doug Jones
Fred Gladding
Brad Lidge
C: Alan Ashby and Brad Ausmus (platoon)
1B: Bob Watson
2B: Doran
3B: Doug Rader
SS: Thon
LF: Cruz
CF: Cedeno
RF: Wynn
Bench:
C: Tony Eusebio
IF: Glenn Davis, Craig Reynolds, Denny Walling
OF: Rusty Staub, Greg Gross
This team would mop the floor with every team ever assembled.
Tyles
February 28, 2010 at 06:44PM View BBCode
I could go ahead and make an all-time Mariners team that would clean house, but it would just be Chone Figgins playing every single position.