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Lou.
[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701]Story.[/url]
No more Nomar.
March 11, 2010 at 01:01AM View BBCode
Obligatory debate thread to follow.[url=http://sports.espn.go.com/boston/mlb/news/story?id=4981701]Story.[/url]
FuriousGiorge
March 11, 2010 at 01:32AM View BBCode
Look at what the tardo who sponsors his BR page said.
Lou.
One well-placed homerun doth a Hall of Fame spot make, but two little ol' battin' titles? I dunno...
March 11, 2010 at 01:41AM View BBCode
Didn't know you guys still went over there. That's pretty funny.One well-placed homerun doth a Hall of Fame spot make, but two little ol' battin' titles? I dunno...
FuriousGiorge
I'm on the fence with Nomar, but I'm leaning no. His career is just too damn short.
March 11, 2010 at 01:43AM View BBCode
Where else does a person find a guy's statistics?I'm on the fence with Nomar, but I'm leaning no. His career is just too damn short.
(Eric)
March 11, 2010 at 01:56AM View BBCode
The hyphen that's required in going to either basketball reference or baseball reference (to avoid going to inferior sites) is the bane of my existence.
Tyles
March 11, 2010 at 01:57AM View BBCode
Ha, I guess for Boston to win a legitimate World Series they'd have to do it with a team of volunteers?
Tyles
March 11, 2010 at 01:59AM View BBCode
Does Lou think BR refers to something else? Because that was a little weird.
Lou.
March 11, 2010 at 02:15AM View BBCode
No, I remember you once saying BR was no longer readable because of all the information. I still peruse it from time to time. ESPN has the career cards of all the players as well.
tworoosters
March 11, 2010 at 02:20AM View BBCode
The only way Nomar gets in the Hall of Fame is if he pays the $16.50 admission charge .
Tyles
March 11, 2010 at 02:27AM View BBCode
(Also, it's a little ironic that his top similarity score is Joe Gordon.)
FuriousGiorge
Seriously. Nomar is borderline, which means that he could very easily get in. He wasn't in the Mitchell report (right?) so he'll accrue some goodwill there.
March 11, 2010 at 02:34AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
That's a pretty ridiculous dismissal.
Seriously. Nomar is borderline, which means that he could very easily get in. He wasn't in the Mitchell report (right?) so he'll accrue some goodwill there.
cowboymatt43
He shouldn't even get a sniff at the Hall.
March 11, 2010 at 02:39AM View BBCode
His career batting average is solid but he only played in over 80% of games in a season 6 times and over 70% 8 times. That's going to hurt him big time...and it should.He shouldn't even get a sniff at the Hall.
FuriousGiorge
March 11, 2010 at 02:43AM View BBCode
Again, this is insane. Jose Offerman shouldn't get a sniff at the Hall. Rikkert Faneyte. Pat motherhumping Borders. These are players that aren't even close. Nomar is, at worst, real close. A tough decision for the writers. Stop saying stupid things, everybody.
tworoosters
At 845, hardly a great fit.
Go ahead lay out Nomar's HOF credentials, is it the runs scored (384th), the hits (386th), homers (232nd), doubles (214th), triples (639th), RBI (316th) ?
Maybe it's not his counting stats, maybe it's his OPS (92nd),OBP (402nd) or Batting Average (81st) or his OPS+(245th) ?
How about his Gold Gloves (zero) or major awards (1) (Rookie of the Year so I guess Joe Charbonneau has a shot) or his Championship Rings (0) ?
Or is it his body of work ?
His durability, the way he contributed to great teams ?
Which of Nomar's Hall of fame worthy attributes did I miss Tyles ?
March 11, 2010 at 02:46AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Tyles
(Also, it's a little ironic that his top similarity score is Joe Gordon.)
At 845, hardly a great fit.
Originally posted by Tyles
That's a pretty ridiculous dismissal.
Go ahead lay out Nomar's HOF credentials, is it the runs scored (384th), the hits (386th), homers (232nd), doubles (214th), triples (639th), RBI (316th) ?
Maybe it's not his counting stats, maybe it's his OPS (92nd),OBP (402nd) or Batting Average (81st) or his OPS+(245th) ?
How about his Gold Gloves (zero) or major awards (1) (Rookie of the Year so I guess Joe Charbonneau has a shot) or his Championship Rings (0) ?
Or is it his body of work ?
His durability, the way he contributed to great teams ?
Which of Nomar's Hall of fame worthy attributes did I miss Tyles ?
Tyles
March 11, 2010 at 02:51AM View BBCode
Don't be ridiculous. Nomar brought great offense to a premium position and played in a major market. Yes, his career (and his peak) was short, and if you ask me I don't think he's quite got Hall of Fame numbers. But he's a pretty classic borderline case, so save the dismissive language for, I don't know, Jose Valentin. Or Pete Rose.
FuriousGiorge
This is the best part. You know what Ernie Banks' career OPS+ is? 122. You know what Cal Ripken's is? 112. Nomar's is 124. Now obviously those other guys have longevity in their favor, and that is not a trivial thing (which is why they were locks and Nomar isn't, not even close) but if you're going to make the case against Nomar at least be intellectually honest when you do it.
March 11, 2010 at 02:59AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
or his OPS+(245th) ?
This is the best part. You know what Ernie Banks' career OPS+ is? 122. You know what Cal Ripken's is? 112. Nomar's is 124. Now obviously those other guys have longevity in their favor, and that is not a trivial thing (which is why they were locks and Nomar isn't, not even close) but if you're going to make the case against Nomar at least be intellectually honest when you do it.
dirtdevil
March 11, 2010 at 03:02AM View BBCode
i think both of you are overracting, to be honest. nomar doesn't rate an immediate dismissal from hof consideration, imo, but he's not a real good candidate either. if i had a hof vote (which i obviously don't) i'd stop at his name for a second or two, then shrug and move on.
tworoosters
Alan Trammell played over 2,000 games at SS, won a World Series(in which he was named MVP), 4 GG and 3 Silver Sluggers, to Nomar's 0 and 1 and Trammell topped out last year at 22.4% on his 9th HOF ballot.
When the highest you rank in career stats is 81st for batting average you'd better have a bunch of hardware to prove you belong and one ROY award and a pair of Top Ten in the MVPs aren't going to cut it .
If Nomar is a "borderline" case then there's much more wrong with the Hall of Fame than even I imagined. He'll get some votes but he has zero chance of election.
March 11, 2010 at 03:04AM View BBCode
If he'd played SS his whole career I could see him getting a sniff but he didn't .Alan Trammell played over 2,000 games at SS, won a World Series(in which he was named MVP), 4 GG and 3 Silver Sluggers, to Nomar's 0 and 1 and Trammell topped out last year at 22.4% on his 9th HOF ballot.
When the highest you rank in career stats is 81st for batting average you'd better have a bunch of hardware to prove you belong and one ROY award and a pair of Top Ten in the MVPs aren't going to cut it .
If Nomar is a "borderline" case then there's much more wrong with the Hall of Fame than even I imagined. He'll get some votes but he has zero chance of election.
tworoosters
Let's check out Banks and Ripken in some of the other areas where Nomar ranks in the 200+ range before you toss their names in.
I gave Nomar's rank in every major category - nice of you to pick out one.
March 11, 2010 at 03:07AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Originally posted by tworoosters
or his OPS+(245th) ?
This is the best part. You know what Ernie Banks' career OPS+ is? 122. You know what Cal Ripken's is? 112. Nomar's is 124. Now obviously those other guys have longevity in their favor, and that is not a trivial thing (which is why they were locks and Nomar isn't, not even close) but if you're going to make the case against Nomar at least be intellectually honest when you do it.
Let's check out Banks and Ripken in some of the other areas where Nomar ranks in the 200+ range before you toss their names in.
I gave Nomar's rank in every major category - nice of you to pick out one.
Tyles
You're right, of course. With Gordon's career AVG (978th), SLG (255th), OBP (498th), OPS (265th), home runs (185th), RBI (290th), doubles (538th), runs scored (394th) and hits (548th), a guy like Nomar Garciaparra, who played a tougher position and, you know, played against black guys, probably deserves better company.
(I guess what I'm saying is, we can both play this stupid game.)
March 11, 2010 at 03:09AM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Originally posted by Tyles
(Also, it's a little ironic that his top similarity score is Joe Gordon.)
At 845, hardly a great fit.
You're right, of course. With Gordon's career AVG (978th), SLG (255th), OBP (498th), OPS (265th), home runs (185th), RBI (290th), doubles (538th), runs scored (394th) and hits (548th), a guy like Nomar Garciaparra, who played a tougher position and, you know, played against black guys, probably deserves better company.
(I guess what I'm saying is, we can both play this stupid game.)
dirtdevil
March 11, 2010 at 03:11AM View BBCode
and what i'm saying is you're arguing just for the sake of it. nomar isn't a non-candidate, but he doesn't have a real shot, either.
(Eric)
whoa.
March 11, 2010 at 03:12AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
and what i'm saying is you're arguing just for the sake of it.
whoa.