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Old Forum Index » Sim Forums » Baseball Enhancements » Tums, Mylanta, Immodium, heck, even the generic antacids are way better
shep1582
By every conceivable measure (except total saves) [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=5886248]Huevos[/url] had a much much better season. Wins, games, IP, K/W ratio, WHIP, ERA were all tilted dramatically in his favor. It's not even close.
I don't know what the answer is to fix the formula, but this is not an award that would be handed out by people who are even as stupid as the BBWA.
[Edited on 6/9/2010 by shep1582]
Tums, Mylanta, Immodium, heck, even the generic antacids are way better
June 08, 2010 at 09:02PM View BBCode
With one game to go in the season, [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=5751066]this guy[/url] leads [email=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=5886248]this guy[/email] by 7 votes for FOY.By every conceivable measure (except total saves) [url=http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?player=nobody&mode=stats&id=5886248]Huevos[/url] had a much much better season. Wins, games, IP, K/W ratio, WHIP, ERA were all tilted dramatically in his favor. It's not even close.
I don't know what the answer is to fix the formula, but this is not an award that would be handed out by people who are even as stupid as the BBWA.
[Edited on 6/9/2010 by shep1582]
Hamilton2
The Fireman Award is an exact clone of the Rolaids Relief Award. So ... bummer?
June 08, 2010 at 09:21PM View BBCode
The "Rolaids Relief Award" specifies an exact formula which includes ONLY saves, blown saves and wins, without regard to any other pitching measure.The Fireman Award is an exact clone of the Rolaids Relief Award. So ... bummer?
tworoosters
The Rolaids Award does not take anything into account except wins, losses, saves and blown saves and gives saves .
The Rolaids Relief Man Award® is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion. A reliever is given 2 points for a win, 3 points for a save and -2 points for a loss.
Beginning in 1987, the statistic of a blown save has counted as -2 points. And in 2000, ROLAIDS® began awarding 4 points for a tough save, when a reliever enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save.
The reliever in each league with the highest score at the end of the season is presented with the award.
Everyone knows it's a flawed award especially since the "tough save" part isn't counted in SIM.
June 08, 2010 at 09:26PM View BBCode
The Fireman Award uses the same scoring system as the MLB Rolaids Relief Man award, except SIM doesn't calculate the "tough saves" part. The BBWA has nothing to do with the awardThe Rolaids Award does not take anything into account except wins, losses, saves and blown saves and gives saves .
The Rolaids Relief Man Award® is based objectively on statistical performance, rather than subjective opinion. A reliever is given 2 points for a win, 3 points for a save and -2 points for a loss.
Beginning in 1987, the statistic of a blown save has counted as -2 points. And in 2000, ROLAIDS® began awarding 4 points for a tough save, when a reliever enters a game with the tying run already on base and gets the save.
The reliever in each league with the highest score at the end of the season is presented with the award.
Everyone knows it's a flawed award especially since the "tough save" part isn't counted in SIM.
shep1582
The guy in question isn't among the 25 best pitchers in the league. Why does he deserve the little red firehat next to this season? Imodium's attempt at advertising shouldn't weigh into Sim Dynasty's awards unless they advertise here.
I kind of agree with the other awards. This one is ridiculous.
June 08, 2010 at 10:15PM View BBCode
I know Tums gives the award, not BBWA. Pepto Bismol is even dumber than the BBWA, who would never be stupid enough to hand out an award like this. Metamucil does this for publicity. Why would we follow the lead of a pharmaceutical company to hand out awards?The guy in question isn't among the 25 best pitchers in the league. Why does he deserve the little red firehat next to this season? Imodium's attempt at advertising shouldn't weigh into Sim Dynasty's awards unless they advertise here.
I kind of agree with the other awards. This one is ridiculous.
shep1582
(W - L) + (S - BS) + (G x .1) + (IP x .1) - (ERA + WHIP)
Merritt
(2 -3) + (39-11) + (57 x .1) + (52 x .1) - (5.02 + 1.69)
-1 + 28 + 5.7 + 5.2 - 6.71
31.19
Huevos
(5-3) + (29 - 1) + (105 x .1) + (106.67 x .1) - (2.11 + 1.12)
2 + 28 + 10.5 + 10.67 - 3.23
47.94
That, to me, accurately reflects the difference between the 2 pitcher's seasons. (Even if you used Alka Seltzer's 3 x Svs and 2 x BS, it would bump Merritt only 10 points. Merritt 117-22, 95, aggregate 67; Huevos 87-2, 85, 57 aggregate.)
edit, used 3 instead of 2 for Huevos BS penalty.
[Edited on 6/9/2010 by shep1582]
June 09, 2010 at 02:12AM View BBCode
here's my idea for a formula:(W - L) + (S - BS) + (G x .1) + (IP x .1) - (ERA + WHIP)
Merritt
(2 -3) + (39-11) + (57 x .1) + (52 x .1) - (5.02 + 1.69)
-1 + 28 + 5.7 + 5.2 - 6.71
31.19
Huevos
(5-3) + (29 - 1) + (105 x .1) + (106.67 x .1) - (2.11 + 1.12)
2 + 28 + 10.5 + 10.67 - 3.23
47.94
That, to me, accurately reflects the difference between the 2 pitcher's seasons. (Even if you used Alka Seltzer's 3 x Svs and 2 x BS, it would bump Merritt only 10 points. Merritt 117-22, 95, aggregate 67; Huevos 87-2, 85, 57 aggregate.)
edit, used 3 instead of 2 for Huevos BS penalty.
[Edited on 6/9/2010 by shep1582]
dirtdevil
as much as i do legitimately appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to come up with a new formula (which most people complaining about the awards don't) i don't see any reason why we'd want to make this change. the awards are set to mimic as much as possible the results of real mlb baseball. so why would we want to bring in a completely new metric for the award that most completely accomplpishes that goal? adding the tough saves calculation i could certainly support. this, altough i do see your point of view, i can not.
June 09, 2010 at 03:29AM View BBCode
you get bent out of shape about the oddest things.as much as i do legitimately appreciate that you've taken the time and effort to come up with a new formula (which most people complaining about the awards don't) i don't see any reason why we'd want to make this change. the awards are set to mimic as much as possible the results of real mlb baseball. so why would we want to bring in a completely new metric for the award that most completely accomplpishes that goal? adding the tough saves calculation i could certainly support. this, altough i do see your point of view, i can not.
shep1582
b) No reasonable person thinks the guy who will win the FOY has in any way earned it.
c) Just because MLB does something stupid, doesn't mean we should mimic it. We don't have DHs, do we? We don't have 16 teams in one league and 14 in the other, do we? We don't perfectly mimic MLB in EVERYTHING. This is another thing we should do better than they do.
d) This is not an "odd" thing. This is an award handed out to our players that should be given to the deserving candidate. I've seen weird FOY awards, but this one is ludicrous.
e) You don't support things, apparently, because you didn't think of them first.
All the other awards are mimicking the BBWA, and use the formulas of real baseball sabermetricians. I don't always agree with them, but they are usually pretty good choices, even when the best guy doesn't win. Choices like this are unbelievably bad, and it needs to be fixed.
June 09, 2010 at 03:40AM View BBCode
a) I'm not bent out of shape.b) No reasonable person thinks the guy who will win the FOY has in any way earned it.
c) Just because MLB does something stupid, doesn't mean we should mimic it. We don't have DHs, do we? We don't have 16 teams in one league and 14 in the other, do we? We don't perfectly mimic MLB in EVERYTHING. This is another thing we should do better than they do.
d) This is not an "odd" thing. This is an award handed out to our players that should be given to the deserving candidate. I've seen weird FOY awards, but this one is ludicrous.
e) You don't support things, apparently, because you didn't think of them first.
All the other awards are mimicking the BBWA, and use the formulas of real baseball sabermetricians. I don't always agree with them, but they are usually pretty good choices, even when the best guy doesn't win. Choices like this are unbelievably bad, and it needs to be fixed.
dirtdevil
June 09, 2010 at 03:47AM View BBCode
it's not a 'choice' it's the mathematical outcome of the actual formula used in mlb. my objection has nothing to do with who thought of it. it has to do with the idea behind the awards. i agree with tyson's goal in that area. ergo, i do not support this idea.
shep1582
Of course it chooses. Use whatever semantics you want, it makes a choice dependent on an equation.
A seriously bad equation, at that. It would be like having the MVP formula use K/W ratio and batting average, or the Cy use wins + shutouts.
I'm not one who thinks all this stuff is perfect, as is. Had this game been developed in my youth, OBP would not have been a consideration. In 1950, no one would have been able to tell you what the OBP of their favorite player was. MVP voting was based on triple crown stats, plus stuff like playing for a contender, playing a difficult defensive position, and intangibles like leadership. Now, OBP is widely viewed as a far more reliable indicator of offensive effectiveness than BA.
Aren't we supposed to be mimicking the 1950's era baseball? We don't use 1950's era stats. I believe the saves leader in 1950 had 12. There was no Prevacid RP of the Year Award in 1950, either. Where's your stand that we not even have the award, oh purist?
June 09, 2010 at 04:08AM View BBCode
If the formula only uses limited data, it chooses the one who fits that data.Of course it chooses. Use whatever semantics you want, it makes a choice dependent on an equation.
A seriously bad equation, at that. It would be like having the MVP formula use K/W ratio and batting average, or the Cy use wins + shutouts.
I'm not one who thinks all this stuff is perfect, as is. Had this game been developed in my youth, OBP would not have been a consideration. In 1950, no one would have been able to tell you what the OBP of their favorite player was. MVP voting was based on triple crown stats, plus stuff like playing for a contender, playing a difficult defensive position, and intangibles like leadership. Now, OBP is widely viewed as a far more reliable indicator of offensive effectiveness than BA.
Aren't we supposed to be mimicking the 1950's era baseball? We don't use 1950's era stats. I believe the saves leader in 1950 had 12. There was no Prevacid RP of the Year Award in 1950, either. Where's your stand that we not even have the award, oh purist?
Hamilton2
I am amused by your formula, because it awards a pitcher for picking up a "vulture win" by recognizing any RP W's. This amuses me because the one thing that will cause you to rants faster than Billy Doran is vulture wins. LOL
June 09, 2010 at 02:59PM View BBCode
We used to not have a FOY. Those were the days of joy. But, those people who love saves (you aren't one of those people) insisted that their wonderful 47 save, 5.60 ERA closers weren't getting enough recognition so Tyson posted a FOY award using an actual, mathematical equation that is used by MLB to recognize closers. It was an easy fix. It functions just fine.I am amused by your formula, because it awards a pitcher for picking up a "vulture win" by recognizing any RP W's. This amuses me because the one thing that will cause you to rants faster than Billy Doran is vulture wins. LOL
Hamilton2
June 09, 2010 at 03:01PM View BBCode
(Oh, and for the record, I absolutely love your proposed formula. I would be completely in favor of using your formula to recognize the actual "best RP," but the fireman award does what it is designed to do, even if I think it is a completely stupid award.)
tm4559
(this is not about the fifties. this is a common misunderstanding. the goal is to give a reasonable representation of professional baseball, without regard to any particular era.)
June 09, 2010 at 03:02PM View BBCode
the mimicking the fifties thing again? i thought we put that one to rest a long time ago.(this is not about the fifties. this is a common misunderstanding. the goal is to give a reasonable representation of professional baseball, without regard to any particular era.)
Admin
We're not changing the FOY formula to something arbitrary. It is a specific formula that is used in MLB. It is not mean to pick the best RP, it is meant to pick whoever the formula says it should pick.
Since about 2000, MLB has also included something called Tough Saves into the formula. We are using the incarnation of the formula from before that. The only conceivable way I'd adjust this formula would be to include Tough Saves and migrate to the next version of the formula.
Tyson
June 09, 2010 at 03:08PM View BBCode
Hi,We're not changing the FOY formula to something arbitrary. It is a specific formula that is used in MLB. It is not mean to pick the best RP, it is meant to pick whoever the formula says it should pick.
Since about 2000, MLB has also included something called Tough Saves into the formula. We are using the incarnation of the formula from before that. The only conceivable way I'd adjust this formula would be to include Tough Saves and migrate to the next version of the formula.
Tyson
tworoosters
June 09, 2010 at 03:36PM View BBCode
I would think adding the tough saves would be a good idea if it's not too complicated.
shep1582
tyson - Why should we continue to use a formula that makes no sense? This was a gimmick award that Rolaids wanted to hand out to have a baseball tie-in. If we're going to use this award, shouldn't we do it better? The current formula only credits manager prefs, not actual performance, and makes a mockery of the job a team's pitchers do. You have told me before that if I came up with a different formula, you would consider it. It doesn't sound like you will, in this instance.
tm - I was merely responding to deke's contention that we mimic MLB. We don't always, and in lots of ways we don't. Why mimic this nonsensical award?
As I stated before, I don't always agree with the MVP and Cy winners, but they're at least handed out to good players every time, if not the very best. The FOY award in many instances is handed out to terrible pitchers, like this instance. Huevos pitched twice as much, and was twice as effective. The difference in their performance by the formula I used doesn't really reflect just how much better he was than Merritt, IMO. Huevos pitched for a team that won lots of games by wide margins, eliminating save opportunities. The formula Rolaids uses is arbitrary. The other formulas we use have been refined and have a basis in mathematical analysis. This one uses raw #'s that do not reflect true performance.
June 09, 2010 at 03:39PM View BBCode
hammy - I only used W's because the current formula uses it, and I didn't want to arbitrarily leave something out just because I think they are meaningless. And not all RP wins are vulture wins.tyson - Why should we continue to use a formula that makes no sense? This was a gimmick award that Rolaids wanted to hand out to have a baseball tie-in. If we're going to use this award, shouldn't we do it better? The current formula only credits manager prefs, not actual performance, and makes a mockery of the job a team's pitchers do. You have told me before that if I came up with a different formula, you would consider it. It doesn't sound like you will, in this instance.
tm - I was merely responding to deke's contention that we mimic MLB. We don't always, and in lots of ways we don't. Why mimic this nonsensical award?
As I stated before, I don't always agree with the MVP and Cy winners, but they're at least handed out to good players every time, if not the very best. The FOY award in many instances is handed out to terrible pitchers, like this instance. Huevos pitched twice as much, and was twice as effective. The difference in their performance by the formula I used doesn't really reflect just how much better he was than Merritt, IMO. Huevos pitched for a team that won lots of games by wide margins, eliminating save opportunities. The formula Rolaids uses is arbitrary. The other formulas we use have been refined and have a basis in mathematical analysis. This one uses raw #'s that do not reflect true performance.
Admin
If you want a different formula, I'd suggest adding an idea to ideascale to pick the "Best RP" or some such. This formula works and will not be changed.
Tyson
June 09, 2010 at 03:43PM View BBCode
shep - there is no possible way to do better, other than to add in quality saves. It exactly mimicks MLB, because MLB uses a formula. This is the only award that is scientifically determined. I'm not about to change that. It isn't an arbitrary formula determined by some stomach acid scientists. I believe MLB or The Sporting News came up with the formula. Ii is just sponsored by Rolaids.If you want a different formula, I'd suggest adding an idea to ideascale to pick the "Best RP" or some such. This formula works and will not be changed.
Tyson
Jughead
June 09, 2010 at 03:54PM View BBCode
An RP-equivalent of a Hank Aaron award, as it were. That I would like to see. We need more awards so I can accurately present my baseball card suggestion, which is still in the works <points to his head>, but would set up some sort of reward system. <stops pointing to his head>
tm4559
everyone except, i don't know. folks that keep on bringing up this broken FOY thing.
June 09, 2010 at 04:05PM View BBCode
the thing is, that everyone here just kind of accepts that the FOY is broken, and has moved on long ago. folks use closers, and they win the award (not every, single time, sometime a regular high inning reliever wins it just because it is actually very good, and all those saves don't deliver it for the closer).everyone except, i don't know. folks that keep on bringing up this broken FOY thing.
shep1582
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sporting_News_Reliever_of_the_Year_Award]Here's TSN[/url]
TSN link doesn't give their formula, but it does say it's given to the top reliever each season. The winners are not the same on each list, so they cannot use the same formula.
June 09, 2010 at 04:09PM View BBCode
[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rolaids_Relief_Man_of_the_Year_Award]Here's Rolaids[/url] which appears to have been developed by Rolaids, as it says Rolaids changed the formula to include tough saves.[url=http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Sporting_News_Reliever_of_the_Year_Award]Here's TSN[/url]
TSN link doesn't give their formula, but it does say it's given to the top reliever each season. The winners are not the same on each list, so they cannot use the same formula.
tworoosters
I mean the TSN AL award in 2007 was awarded to [url=http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5448]a guy[/url] who went 4-5 with an ERA of 5.07 and a whip of 1.431, he did lead the league in saves however with 45, while blowing 8.
That same year the TSN was not given to [url=http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7205]a guy[/url] who went 6-1 with 40 saves, 2 blown, an ERA of 1.38, a WHIP of 0.70 and 82 Ks in 71.1 innings - he did win the Rolaids award however.
[Edited on 6-9-2010 by tworoosters]
June 09, 2010 at 04:31PM View BBCode
What makes you think there would be less rancor if the TSN formula, if there is one, were used ?I mean the TSN AL award in 2007 was awarded to [url=http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/5448]a guy[/url] who went 4-5 with an ERA of 5.07 and a whip of 1.431, he did lead the league in saves however with 45, while blowing 8.
That same year the TSN was not given to [url=http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/7205]a guy[/url] who went 6-1 with 40 saves, 2 blown, an ERA of 1.38, a WHIP of 0.70 and 82 Ks in 71.1 innings - he did win the Rolaids award however.
[Edited on 6-9-2010 by tworoosters]
Admin
http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_5_61/ai_84542687/
Tyson
June 09, 2010 at 04:35PM View BBCode
Here's how they came up with the formula, internal Rolaids employees don't appear to have much to do with it:http://findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_m0FCI/is_5_61/ai_84542687/
Tyson
shep1582
As always, the shep should decide these things.
June 09, 2010 at 04:36PM View BBCode
I didn't say to use TSN, was simply saying Rolaids isn't using theirs.As always, the shep should decide these things.
shep1582
June 09, 2010 at 04:55PM View BBCode
[url=http://simdynasty.com/boxscore.jsp?playoff=true&series=49845&boxscoreid=267860]And just to be cantankerous[/url] here's the mockery of a stat that saves are.
Hamilton2
June 09, 2010 at 04:58PM View BBCode
I would vote in favor of the "Best RP" award idea on ideascale. Get it on there, sheppy. :saint: