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danno38852
Making 4 divisions out of 2
January 08, 2011 at 02:35AM View BBCode
Has any thought been given to splitting 2 8 team divisions into 4 divisions of 4 each? I am consistently winning 92-95 games . I am also finishing 3rd to 4th every year out of the playoffs. I am in the N.L. of the Wally Berger league. The same teams in the N.L. and the A.L. seem to win each year. It would make it more fun. Thanks
dirtdevil
January 08, 2011 at 02:45AM View BBCode
unless you're suggesting taking two teams from each division into the playoffs, i'm not sure what you'd accomplish that would change anything. and if you are suggesting taking 8 of 16 teams to the playoffs, then i'm not a fan of the idea.
WillyD
I would like 2 division of 8 teams in the NL & AL though. That would be a big change however and would unlikely take place anytime soon.
Another strategy for making your league more fun would be to get better so that the same teams don't keep making it.
January 08, 2011 at 05:27AM View BBCode
I would definitely not be in favor of 4 team divisions.I would like 2 division of 8 teams in the NL & AL though. That would be a big change however and would unlikely take place anytime soon.
Another strategy for making your league more fun would be to get better so that the same teams don't keep making it.
dirtdevil
it's been suggested before a few times. generally, it doesn't seem to have a huge amount of support. the difficulty with it from a business standpoint is it would greastly reduce each individual owner's chances of having success (ie making the playoffs) and when people have success, they have fun. when they don't have success they don't have fun and when they don't have fun, they stop paying.
January 08, 2011 at 02:13PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
I would like 2 division of 8 teams in the NL & AL though. That would be a big change however and would unlikely take place anytime soon.
it's been suggested before a few times. generally, it doesn't seem to have a huge amount of support. the difficulty with it from a business standpoint is it would greastly reduce each individual owner's chances of having success (ie making the playoffs) and when people have success, they have fun. when they don't have success they don't have fun and when they don't have fun, they stop paying.
redcped
Excellent points, but I think you are assuming that the percentage of playoff teams would decrease in that scenario, and an extra round of playoffs would keep the odds the same.
Currently 4 out of 16 teams make the playoffs, 25%. If each league doubled in size but you doubled the playoff participants (or more, as other sports have), you'd have at least 8 of 32 teams, 25%.
I cannot imagine any support for the scenario you suppose, where only the division champions make the playoffs, or 4 of 32 teams. That would, indeed, hurt business.
January 08, 2011 at 03:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by WillyD
I would like 2 division of 8 teams in the NL & AL though. That would be a big change however and would unlikely take place anytime soon.
it's been suggested before a few times. generally, it doesn't seem to have a huge amount of support. the difficulty with it from a business standpoint is it would greastly reduce each individual owner's chances of having success (ie making the playoffs) and when people have success, they have fun. when they don't have success they don't have fun and when they don't have fun, they stop paying.
Excellent points, but I think you are assuming that the percentage of playoff teams would decrease in that scenario, and an extra round of playoffs would keep the odds the same.
Currently 4 out of 16 teams make the playoffs, 25%. If each league doubled in size but you doubled the playoff participants (or more, as other sports have), you'd have at least 8 of 32 teams, 25%.
I cannot imagine any support for the scenario you suppose, where only the division champions make the playoffs, or 4 of 32 teams. That would, indeed, hurt business.
dirtdevil
the logistics get a bit difficult, too. where do the extras owners come from? there are already a ton of replacement teams available, so i have a hard time seeing that required doubling the size of these leagues will see the new teams are going to be snapped up very quickly. are we forcing leagues to merge to get to the required number? i can't think that will be terribly popular. tyson isn't starting new leagues, so starting from scratch isn't going to be an option, at least in the near-term.
i just don't see any way that this is a good idea.
(that said, if enough people really want it, there's a decent chance it could go ahead as an option.)
January 08, 2011 at 04:28PM View BBCode
even if the playoff teams increase in proportion, you're still going to have 24 owners 'failing' each season. right now we have 12. that's twice as many.the logistics get a bit difficult, too. where do the extras owners come from? there are already a ton of replacement teams available, so i have a hard time seeing that required doubling the size of these leagues will see the new teams are going to be snapped up very quickly. are we forcing leagues to merge to get to the required number? i can't think that will be terribly popular. tyson isn't starting new leagues, so starting from scratch isn't going to be an option, at least in the near-term.
i just don't see any way that this is a good idea.
(that said, if enough people really want it, there's a decent chance it could go ahead as an option.)
redcped
I think there's a logic error in here. Currently those teams would exist in two leagues, where 24 owners combined do not make the playoffs.
You put them in one league together, and still 24 owners do not make the playoffs.
You haven't increased the number of teams "failing." You've just combined them into one place instead of two.
January 08, 2011 at 04:52PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
even if the playoff teams increase in proportion, you're still going to have 24 owners 'failing' each season. right now we have 12. that's twice as many.
I think there's a logic error in here. Currently those teams would exist in two leagues, where 24 owners combined do not make the playoffs.
You put them in one league together, and still 24 owners do not make the playoffs.
You haven't increased the number of teams "failing." You've just combined them into one place instead of two.
Hamilton2
January 08, 2011 at 05:02PM View BBCode
So you aren't talking about starting a new league with 32 teams, your idea is to combine two existing leagues to form a 32 team league? That's really just word play, but fact is that for each season of play, a 32-team league generates 24 non-playoff owners and a 16-team league only generates 12. You can say it however you like, but that's the truth.
WillyD
Obviously it wouldn't work right now because we have too many leagues w/o owners now. Tyson has already said this would take a lot of work, but if he were to announce that he was indeed working on the league format previously mentioned, I bet there would be a lot of interest.
January 08, 2011 at 05:02PM View BBCode
Well said redcped.Obviously it wouldn't work right now because we have too many leagues w/o owners now. Tyson has already said this would take a lot of work, but if he were to announce that he was indeed working on the league format previously mentioned, I bet there would be a lot of interest.
WillyD
That's not what he said Ham. There's no word play except on your end. The truth is that the odds of making the post-season are the same, the amount of total non-playoff teams is the same because this NEW league would take the place of two other NEW leagues. The only difference is that it would be harder to win it all because there would be an extra round of playoffs.
January 08, 2011 at 05:08PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hamilton2
So you aren't talking about starting a new league with 32 teams, your idea is to combine two existing leagues to form a 32 team league? That's really just word play, but fact is that for each season of play, a 32-team league generates 24 non-playoff owners and a 16-team league only generates 12. You can say it however you like, but that's the truth.
That's not what he said Ham. There's no word play except on your end. The truth is that the odds of making the post-season are the same, the amount of total non-playoff teams is the same because this NEW league would take the place of two other NEW leagues. The only difference is that it would be harder to win it all because there would be an extra round of playoffs.
Hamilton2
January 08, 2011 at 05:46PM View BBCode
So ... we can't sell all of the expansion and replacement teams that are available as of right now, and no new leagues are being started. Therefore, we should start leagues that have twice as many needed owners? That makes sense.
WillyD
:puzzled:
You should really try to stop assuming things.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by WillyD]
January 08, 2011 at 06:17PM View BBCode
Did you read the post before that one?:puzzled:
You should really try to stop assuming things.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by WillyD]
dirtdevil
that's only true if two existing leagues are combined, either voluntarily or not (and i don't see how you could realistically do not), to create the larger league. for any new league starting using this format, there are going to be twice as many non-playoff teams as in a parallel 16-team league. that's simple math. and frankly, if you're only combining two existing leagues, why bother? you haven't changed anything substantial.
(which, again, is not to say that if enough people seem to want to do so, it shouldn't be available as an option. that fact that i think it's silly doesn't mean it won't sell)
the more i think about combining leagues though, the more difficult i think it will be logistically. you'll have to combine leagues that don't have duplication of owners, for obvious reasons, and you'll have to combine leagues with identical formats. that will limit your options. you're probably going to need a unaminous vote in both leagues to approve that kind of a merger, which is probably going to be difficult. i don't know thing-one about coding, but by combining leagues ABE is going to have to sim 16 games at a time instead of 8, which is going to take twice as long. the OS, draft and (potentially) free agency will all take twice as long to run as well. the only way i can see to do all that without changing the times for every other league behind the new larger one in the schedule, is to combine two leagues that run back-to-back in order to give you the full time block without affecting everyone else. that's going to be difficult to arrange, i would imagine.
so the more thought i put into this, the more i think that the only realistic way to do this is to start an 32-team league from scratch, which takes us back to the twin problems of tyson isn't starting new leagues and there will be twice as many teams miss the playoffs.
January 08, 2011 at 06:33PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
The truth is that the odds of making the post-season are the same, the amount of total non-playoff teams is the same because this NEW league would take the place of two other NEW leagues. The only difference is that it would be harder to win it all because there would be an extra round of playoffs.
that's only true if two existing leagues are combined, either voluntarily or not (and i don't see how you could realistically do not), to create the larger league. for any new league starting using this format, there are going to be twice as many non-playoff teams as in a parallel 16-team league. that's simple math. and frankly, if you're only combining two existing leagues, why bother? you haven't changed anything substantial.
(which, again, is not to say that if enough people seem to want to do so, it shouldn't be available as an option. that fact that i think it's silly doesn't mean it won't sell)
the more i think about combining leagues though, the more difficult i think it will be logistically. you'll have to combine leagues that don't have duplication of owners, for obvious reasons, and you'll have to combine leagues with identical formats. that will limit your options. you're probably going to need a unaminous vote in both leagues to approve that kind of a merger, which is probably going to be difficult. i don't know thing-one about coding, but by combining leagues ABE is going to have to sim 16 games at a time instead of 8, which is going to take twice as long. the OS, draft and (potentially) free agency will all take twice as long to run as well. the only way i can see to do all that without changing the times for every other league behind the new larger one in the schedule, is to combine two leagues that run back-to-back in order to give you the full time block without affecting everyone else. that's going to be difficult to arrange, i would imagine.
so the more thought i put into this, the more i think that the only realistic way to do this is to start an 32-team league from scratch, which takes us back to the twin problems of tyson isn't starting new leagues and there will be twice as many teams miss the playoffs.
Hamilton2
That was your response to me and to red after he said this:
Where did I misread his post? He is suggesting combining existing leagues, NOT starting new leagues. You are the one who pointed out (correctly) that this idea will not work as a NEW league, and then you turned around and suggested that it was a good idea for NEW leagues. Maybe I'm not the one who isn't reading the posts ...
January 08, 2011 at 06:36PM View BBCode
Yes, I did read your prior post. What was I supposed to do, quote you in reverse order?Originally posted by WillyD
Originally posted by Hamilton2
So you aren't talking about starting a new league with 32 teams, your idea is to combine two existing leagues to form a 32 team league? That's really just word play, but fact is that for each season of play, a 32-team league generates 24 non-playoff owners and a 16-team league only generates 12. You can say it however you like, but that's the truth.
That's not what he said Ham. There's no word play except on your end. The truth is that the odds of making the post-season are the same, the amount of total non-playoff teams is the same because this NEW league would take the place of two other NEW leagues. The only difference is that it would be harder to win it all because there would be an extra round of playoffs.
Originally posted by WillyD
Obviously it wouldn't work right now because we have too many leagues w/o owners now. Tyson has already said this would take a lot of work, but if he were to announce that he was indeed working on the league format previously mentioned, I bet there would be a lot of interest.
That was your response to me and to red after he said this:
Originally posted by redcped(Emphasis added.)
Currently those teams would exist in two leagues, where 24 owners combined do not make the playoffs.
You put them in one league together, and still 24 owners do not make the playoffs.
You haven't increased the number of teams "failing." You've just combined them into one place instead of two.
Where did I misread his post? He is suggesting combining existing leagues, NOT starting new leagues. You are the one who pointed out (correctly) that this idea will not work as a NEW league, and then you turned around and suggested that it was a good idea for NEW leagues. Maybe I'm not the one who isn't reading the posts ...
WillyD
And why would you say what you did about leagues not being filled if you had read my first post? This seems to be a theme you you lately.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by WillyD]
January 08, 2011 at 06:48PM View BBCode
Sorry wrong. Read the whole thing from the top. redcped was being hypothetically to try and illustrate that DD was lacking some logic.And why would you say what you did about leagues not being filled if you had read my first post? This seems to be a theme you you lately.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by WillyD]
WillyD
January 08, 2011 at 06:53PM View BBCode
You are needlessly going down a road of your own creation. lolOriginally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by WillyD
The truth is that the odds of making the post-season are the same, the amount of total non-playoff teams is the same because this NEW league would take the place of two other NEW leagues. The only difference is that it would be harder to win it all because there would be an extra round of playoffs.
that's only true if two existing leagues are combined, either voluntarily or not (and i don't see how you could realistically do not), to create the larger league. for any new league starting using this format, there are going to be twice as many non-playoff teams as in a parallel 16-team league. that's simple math. and frankly, if you're only combining two existing leagues, why bother? you haven't changed anything substantial.
(which, again, is not to say that if enough people seem to want to do so, it shouldn't be available as an option. that fact that i think it's silly doesn't mean it won't sell)
the more i think about combining leagues though, the more difficult i think it will be logistically. you'll have to combine leagues that don't have duplication of owners, for obvious reasons, and you'll have to combine leagues with identical formats. that will limit your options. you're probably going to need a unaminous vote in both leagues to approve that kind of a merger, which is probably going to be difficult. i don't know thing-one about coding, but by combining leagues ABE is going to have to sim 16 games at a time instead of 8, which is going to take twice as long. the OS, draft and (potentially) free agency will all take twice as long to run as well. the only way i can see to do all that without changing the times for every other league behind the new larger one in the schedule, is to combine two leagues that run back-to-back in order to give you the full time block without affecting everyone else. that's going to be difficult to arrange, i would imagine.
so the more thought i put into this, the more i think that the only realistic way to do this is to start an 32-team league from scratch, which takes us back to the twin problems of tyson isn't starting new leagues and there will be twice as many teams miss the playoffs.
tworoosters
You would play 18 games against your own division, 12 games against the other and the top two teams in each division would make the playoffs then crossover for the first round.
So AL Div A winner vs. Div B wildcard etc., first round could be best off 5 and still play the playoffs in two days or all three rounds best of 7 and add a day.
January 08, 2011 at 06:55PM View BBCode
All back biting and business models aside I would love to see a 24 team league, 2 leagues with 4 divisions of 6 teams each so 33.3% make the playoffs instead of 25%.You would play 18 games against your own division, 12 games against the other and the top two teams in each division would make the playoffs then crossover for the first round.
So AL Div A winner vs. Div B wildcard etc., first round could be best off 5 and still play the playoffs in two days or all three rounds best of 7 and add a day.
Hamilton2
January 08, 2011 at 07:04PM View BBCode
Roosters idea for an expanded league is the best one that I have heard yet and could be viable for the site. Good for him.
WillyD
January 08, 2011 at 07:20PM View BBCode
Go ahead and ignore the mistakes you made in this thread.
dirtdevil
agreed.
January 08, 2011 at 08:05PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Hamilton2
Roosters idea for an expanded league is the best one that I have heard yet and could be viable for the site. Good for him.
agreed.
dirtdevil
in what way?
(and incidently, there was no lacking of logic on my part whatsoever. if you think that there was, maybe you need to re-read some things yourself. because there's nothing in your original posts that states you intended to get 32 teams in a league by combining two existing ones. that's something you and red add about halfway through the thread.)
January 08, 2011 at 08:11PM View BBCode
Originally posted by WillyD
You are needlessly going down a road of your own creation. lol
in what way?
(and incidently, there was no lacking of logic on my part whatsoever. if you think that there was, maybe you need to re-read some things yourself. because there's nothing in your original posts that states you intended to get 32 teams in a league by combining two existing ones. that's something you and red add about halfway through the thread.)
paulcaraccio
Leagues: 2
Total teams: 32
Total playoff teams: 8
Total non-playoff teams: 24
Then if you made a new league with 32 teams, you'd get the same numbers, except with just 1 league. There are the same percentage of teams succeeding and failing. Hope this makes sense.
January 08, 2011 at 08:27PM View BBCode
nobody suggested combining two leagues. There are currently a million leagues or whatever, but to make it simple, lets pretend the site had just 2 16-team leagues.Leagues: 2
Total teams: 32
Total playoff teams: 8
Total non-playoff teams: 24
Then if you made a new league with 32 teams, you'd get the same numbers, except with just 1 league. There are the same percentage of teams succeeding and failing. Hope this makes sense.
dirtdevil
i think what you're saying is that the site in your example now has 3 leagues, two with 16 teams and one with 32. if that's the case, then in league one there are 12 guys currently not succeeding who may be feeling the same way that danno was when he started this thread and who may be contemplating leaving as a result. in league two, another 12 guys. in league three though, you now have 24 guys who may be feeling that way, which doubles the number of potentially unhappy customers and, by extension, potential replacement teams to fill. which is exactly the difficulty i expressed in the first place.
on the other hand, you may be saying that the site in your example now has one single league with 32 teams. in that case, you HAVE combined two leagues, which is then subject to all of the logistical difficulties that willy is trying to belittle me for outlining.
also, this
would seem to refute this
the thing is, we've got guys supporting the idea of combining two existing leagues in one new 32-team league and guys supporting the idea of starting one 32-team league from scratch at the same time in the same thread. they are very clearly not the same idea and each comes with it's own very different set of potential challenges. but at least one of them seems to think they're arguing the same thing, which makes it hard to have any linearly coherent discussion.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by dirtdevil]
January 08, 2011 at 09:18PM View BBCode
i'm not sure if it does or not, because i'm not sure i'm following your end result properly. as far as i can tell, you're suggesting one of two things.i think what you're saying is that the site in your example now has 3 leagues, two with 16 teams and one with 32. if that's the case, then in league one there are 12 guys currently not succeeding who may be feeling the same way that danno was when he started this thread and who may be contemplating leaving as a result. in league two, another 12 guys. in league three though, you now have 24 guys who may be feeling that way, which doubles the number of potentially unhappy customers and, by extension, potential replacement teams to fill. which is exactly the difficulty i expressed in the first place.
on the other hand, you may be saying that the site in your example now has one single league with 32 teams. in that case, you HAVE combined two leagues, which is then subject to all of the logistical difficulties that willy is trying to belittle me for outlining.
also, this
Originally posted by redcped
Currently those teams would exist in two leagues, where 24 owners combined do not make the playoffs.
You put them in one league together, and still 24 owners do not make the playoffs.
You haven't increased the number of teams "failing." You've just combined them into one place instead of two.
would seem to refute this
Originally posted by paulcaraccio
nobody suggested combining two leagues.
the thing is, we've got guys supporting the idea of combining two existing leagues in one new 32-team league and guys supporting the idea of starting one 32-team league from scratch at the same time in the same thread. they are very clearly not the same idea and each comes with it's own very different set of potential challenges. but at least one of them seems to think they're arguing the same thing, which makes it hard to have any linearly coherent discussion.
[Edited on 1-8-2011 by dirtdevil]
paulcaraccio
Redcped's line was a hypothetical situation, not a suggestion.
January 08, 2011 at 09:47PM View BBCode
But you're also doubling the number of playoff teams, increasing the number of happy successful customers by the same multiplier. The ratio of successes to failures doesn't change.Redcped's line was a hypothetical situation, not a suggestion.
WillyD
Hammy was the first to mention combining 2 leagues. PERIOD. You then made a long post about doing so.
You must be joking because no one can be that dumb.
January 08, 2011 at 10:18PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
Originally posted by WillyD
You are needlessly going down a road of your own creation. lol
in what way?
(and incidently, there was no lacking of logic on my part whatsoever. if you think that there was, maybe you need to re-read some things yourself. because there's nothing in your original posts that states you intended to get 32 teams in a league by combining two existing ones. that's something you and red add about halfway through the thread.)
Hammy was the first to mention combining 2 leagues. PERIOD. You then made a long post about doing so.
You must be joking because no one can be that dumb.