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Old Forum Index » Football Beta Testing » Football Beta Test Discussion » A simple solution to the QB's-being-subbed-out problem?
Admin
I've been thinking about this more. In the baseball sim, if anyone put a D- Endurance starter in and he came out after four innings, we would have the same issue. People would complain that any starting pitcher should last more than 4 innings, and others replied that a D- Endurance pitcher had no business starting. Tyson ended up changing the code so you had to have a minimum Endurance to start at all.
Maybe that is the solution here: that low-Stamina QB's (say, D+ and below) are meant to fill backup roles, so perhaps the system should be changed so they just can't be set as starters, no matter how awesome their other ratings are. You could of course use Conditioning drills to try to increase his Stamina.
Of course, this is going to seriously anger existing owners with existing star QB's with low Stamina so I may have to grandfather existing players in, but those players are still going to have sub-out issues.
Thoughts? If it's a good idea (which I think it is), should it be applied to other positions as well? All positions or just WR/RB?
--Chris
A simple solution to the QB's-being-subbed-out problem?
January 22, 2012 at 03:18PM View BBCode
I was thinking about the issue of low-stamina QB's being subbed out. The common complaint here is that "No starting NFL QB would sub out in the red zone or on a critical drive (or ever)". My common reply is "No NFL team would make a D- Stamina QB their starting QB".I've been thinking about this more. In the baseball sim, if anyone put a D- Endurance starter in and he came out after four innings, we would have the same issue. People would complain that any starting pitcher should last more than 4 innings, and others replied that a D- Endurance pitcher had no business starting. Tyson ended up changing the code so you had to have a minimum Endurance to start at all.
Maybe that is the solution here: that low-Stamina QB's (say, D+ and below) are meant to fill backup roles, so perhaps the system should be changed so they just can't be set as starters, no matter how awesome their other ratings are. You could of course use Conditioning drills to try to increase his Stamina.
Of course, this is going to seriously anger existing owners with existing star QB's with low Stamina so I may have to grandfather existing players in, but those players are still going to have sub-out issues.
Thoughts? If it's a good idea (which I think it is), should it be applied to other positions as well? All positions or just WR/RB?
--Chris
casperthegm
Why not just have a minimum stamina be C for any newly created qb's?
January 22, 2012 at 04:01PM View BBCode
I'm not sure what professional qb in real life is going to be so poorly conditioned/tired that he can't throw a pass by the time a long drive has them down in the red zone. Has any qb, whether it's a starter or backup ever had their role determined by their stamina? Maybe Jamarcus Russell...Why not just have a minimum stamina be C for any newly created qb's?
redcped
If someone can recall seeing a starting QB pulled from the game to rest because of his conditioning, I'd be curious to hear about it.
It would be more realistic to have them miss a series after a big sack or get small in-game injuries occasionally, I think.
January 22, 2012 at 04:29PM View BBCode
I tend to agree with casper here. I think QBs getting subbed out should have much more to do with taking hits than stamina. It's just not really something relevant for QBs the way it is for, say, DTs. Unless he's running the ball a lot and absorbing a lot of hits, he's just not going to be too tired to chuck it down the field.If someone can recall seeing a starting QB pulled from the game to rest because of his conditioning, I'd be curious to hear about it.
It would be more realistic to have them miss a series after a big sack or get small in-game injuries occasionally, I think.
RichNYC1
The way we are looking at QB stamina just doesnt correspond to what happens in real life. QB is simply not a spot where players need to sub out for stamina reasons the way the do at RB, WR, or especially DL, which has become an issue due to thier immense size, which clearly limits stamina.
On the other hand, I think the injury rate of our QB´s is actually too low and thats where we should concentrate. In my mind the stamina issue is simply off base
January 22, 2012 at 04:38PM View BBCode
I agree with Casp.The way we are looking at QB stamina just doesnt correspond to what happens in real life. QB is simply not a spot where players need to sub out for stamina reasons the way the do at RB, WR, or especially DL, which has become an issue due to thier immense size, which clearly limits stamina.
On the other hand, I think the injury rate of our QB´s is actually too low and thats where we should concentrate. In my mind the stamina issue is simply off base
tworoosters
Make it so that all QBs, as BOVR, have a minimum stamina of C- .
January 22, 2012 at 04:47PM View BBCode
Why not go the same route the baseball sim did with catchers' arms ?Make it so that all QBs, as BOVR, have a minimum stamina of C- .
Admin
Taking hits is a factor too. Maybe regular fatigue needs to be ramped down and hit fatigue needs to be ramped up.
Well that is my point, low stamina guys don't become starters in the NFL, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.
That is why "shaken up" was created, but maybe it could be employed more effectively.
Chris
[Edited on 1-22-2012 by Admin]
January 22, 2012 at 05:16PM View BBCode
Originally posted by redcped
I tend to agree with casper here. I think QBs getting subbed out should have much more to do with taking hits than stamina. It's just not really something relevant for QBs the way it is for, say, DTs. Unless he's running the ball a lot and absorbing a lot of hits, he's just not going to be too tired to chuck it down the field.
Taking hits is a factor too. Maybe regular fatigue needs to be ramped down and hit fatigue needs to be ramped up.
If someone can recall seeing a starting QB pulled from the game to rest because of his conditioning, I'd be curious to hear about it.
Well that is my point, low stamina guys don't become starters in the NFL, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't exist.
It would be more realistic to have them miss a series after a big sack or get small in-game injuries occasionally, I think.
That is why "shaken up" was created, but maybe it could be employed more effectively.
Chris
[Edited on 1-22-2012 by Admin]
Admin
My latest code does that but I'm not fond of it as it takes out a big differentiation factor.
Chris
January 22, 2012 at 05:20PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
Why not go the same route the baseball sim did with catchers' arms ?
Make it so that all QBs, as BOVR, have a minimum stamina of C- .
My latest code does that but I'm not fond of it as it takes out a big differentiation factor.
Chris
Goldambre
Perhaps another couple of options could be implemented:
Make Stamina an element in the Overall Rating--a BOvr QB would low stamina would downgrade to B- or C+. Or, make stamina a modifier to Throw Power and/or TAccuracy--the QB stays in, but his ability to throw well decreases.
Another little step to move us forward!
January 22, 2012 at 08:09PM View BBCode
I agree that hit fatigue needs to be ramped up vs. regular fatigue.Perhaps another couple of options could be implemented:
Make Stamina an element in the Overall Rating--a BOvr QB would low stamina would downgrade to B- or C+. Or, make stamina a modifier to Throw Power and/or TAccuracy--the QB stays in, but his ability to throw well decreases.
Another little step to move us forward!
smugpuppet
January 22, 2012 at 09:02PM View BBCode
I agree with Goldambre, especially after A QB takes a few sacks and is fatigued his accuracy would deteriorate but he could remain in the game....What athlete would be drafted with poor stamina kinda defeats the label "Athlete" ?...
Admin
According to my research, QB's get 17.5% of the injuries, second only to RB's at 19.6%. that is the way they are supposed to be distributed, although I haven't gone trough the injuries to make sure they are actually being distributed that way. However, now that say this, I realize there is an error in my math: I assign these percentages to all players in the formation, so a QB gets 17.5%, and RB gets 19.6%, an LB gets 15.5%, etc. But I just realized the flaw: There are 3 LB's in a formation and two RB's but only one QB, so the RB percentage should be divided by 2, the LB's divided by 3, etc. Looking at the actual injured players right now, LB's indeed lead in injuries, so this is a bug. Fortunately it's an easy fix.
--Chris
January 23, 2012 at 12:51AM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
On the other hand, I think the injury rate of our QB´s is actually too low and thats where we should concentrate. In my mind the stamina issue is simply off base
According to my research, QB's get 17.5% of the injuries, second only to RB's at 19.6%. that is the way they are supposed to be distributed, although I haven't gone trough the injuries to make sure they are actually being distributed that way. However, now that say this, I realize there is an error in my math: I assign these percentages to all players in the formation, so a QB gets 17.5%, and RB gets 19.6%, an LB gets 15.5%, etc. But I just realized the flaw: There are 3 LB's in a formation and two RB's but only one QB, so the RB percentage should be divided by 2, the LB's divided by 3, etc. Looking at the actual injured players right now, LB's indeed lead in injuries, so this is a bug. Fortunately it's an easy fix.
--Chris
RichNYC1
January 23, 2012 at 02:43AM View BBCode
Um...Great.... I just know my QB is going down game 1 tomorrow :(
Admin
--Chris
January 23, 2012 at 06:10AM View BBCode
New injury distribution code is in place, and I have increased the minimum Stamina of a new QB.--Chris
RichNYC1
January 23, 2012 at 04:25PM View BBCode
Eli Manning threw 58 times last night. He was sacked 6 times, pressured 20 times and knocked down 11 times (maybe it was 12). He didnt miss a play. He must be a 99 STAM :D
redcped
He should have been resting for a couple drives late in the fourth quarter,
January 23, 2012 at 09:33PM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
Eli Manning threw 58 times last night. He was sacked 6 times, pressured 20 times and knocked down 11 times (maybe it was 12). He didnt miss a play. He must be a 99 STAM :D
He should have been resting for a couple drives late in the fourth quarter,
EdSales87
You want to make QB's with low stamina backups, can not start. That makes alot of sense. Who wants a QB they can't start when the Starter gets hurt with injury?
When Ben Rothlisberger was hurt, did Dennis Dixon get subbed in the 1st Qtr because of poor coniditioning? He is a backup after all.
Peyton Manning hurt, Dan Orlovsky, Curtis Painter, Kerry Collins? Nope, none of them subbed out.
How about John Skelton when Kevin Kolb was out? He didn't get subbed out, and won a few games.
Jamarcus Russel was never subbed out, and he is the model of low stamina.
NFL QB Backups are not backups because they threw the ball deep 2 times and are to tired for 3rd Down. They are backups because the Coach has more faith in the Starter because they have more talent or can run the system better.
And Stamina should not be applied to a QB's Overall Talent Score, thats just silly.
Sorry again, but it needed to be said.
January 26, 2012 at 12:28AM View BBCode
I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to post here, but I figured I had to before a potential change went threw that would mask a problem with QB subbing.You want to make QB's with low stamina backups, can not start. That makes alot of sense. Who wants a QB they can't start when the Starter gets hurt with injury?
When Ben Rothlisberger was hurt, did Dennis Dixon get subbed in the 1st Qtr because of poor coniditioning? He is a backup after all.
Peyton Manning hurt, Dan Orlovsky, Curtis Painter, Kerry Collins? Nope, none of them subbed out.
How about John Skelton when Kevin Kolb was out? He didn't get subbed out, and won a few games.
Jamarcus Russel was never subbed out, and he is the model of low stamina.
NFL QB Backups are not backups because they threw the ball deep 2 times and are to tired for 3rd Down. They are backups because the Coach has more faith in the Starter because they have more talent or can run the system better.
And Stamina should not be applied to a QB's Overall Talent Score, thats just silly.
Sorry again, but it needed to be said.
RichNYC1
http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/03/terrell-owens-takes-shot-at-donovan-mcnabb/
January 26, 2012 at 12:57AM View BBCode
The only time Ive ever heard of tired QB was when Donovan McNabb played in Super Bowl XXXIX. I have never heard of another case like that.http://www.aolnews.com/2010/11/03/terrell-owens-takes-shot-at-donovan-mcnabb/
casperthegm
January 26, 2012 at 01:20AM View BBCode
Glad to see you chime in Ed- no reason not to point out what I also see as a flaw in the logic.
lancereisen
The bits of playing time might get him more improve chances.
[Edited on 1-28-2012 by lancereisen]
January 28, 2012 at 03:24PM View BBCode
perhaps a QB with really stamina could get an automatic boost to his holder and hands team rating so he could be useful while improving his stamina.The bits of playing time might get him more improve chances.
[Edited on 1-28-2012 by lancereisen]
Admin
Ed, this forum is poorly named; I should change it. If you have constructive input or observations, it is always welcome here.
--Chris
January 28, 2012 at 06:33PM View BBCode
Originally posted by EdSales87
I'm sorry, I know I'm not supposed to post here, but I figured I had to before a potential change went threw that would mask a problem with QB subbing.
Ed, this forum is poorly named; I should change it. If you have constructive input or observations, it is always welcome here.
--Chris
Admin
This is a great comparison, Rich... thank you!
--Chris
January 28, 2012 at 06:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by RichNYC1
Eli Manning threw 58 times last night. He was sacked 6 times, pressured 20 times and knocked down 11 times (maybe it was 12). He didnt miss a play. He must be a 99 STAM :D
This is a great comparison, Rich... thank you!
--Chris
Admin
Great observations, Ed... this is exactly why I (usually) run things past other people before I implement them.
--Chris
January 28, 2012 at 06:37PM View BBCode
Originally posted by EdSales87
NFL QB Backups are not backups because they threw the ball deep 2 times and are to tired for 3rd Down. They are backups because the Coach has more faith in the Starter because they have more talent or can run the system better.
And Stamina should not be applied to a QB's Overall Talent Score, thats just silly.
Sorry again, but it needed to be said.
Great observations, Ed... this is exactly why I (usually) run things past other people before I implement them.
--Chris
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