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Old Forum Index » Sim Forums » Baseball Enhancements » Most Valuable Player Reasoning (taking STATS into more consideration)
Maze
Spec stat = Runs Scored + RBIs
Player A
ABs 689, Hits 227, Runs 140, Doubles 38, Triples 7, HRs 17, RBIs 83, SBs 18-24, OPS% .871, BA% .329 ... Spec = 223
Player B
ABs 616, Hits 197, Runs 134, Doubles 26, Triples 13, HRs 42, RBIs 122 SBs 20-24, OPS% 1.000, BA% .320 ... Spec = 256
Player C
ABs 586, Hits 190, Runs 109, Doubles 27, Triples 4, HRs 33, RBIs 129, SBs 6-8 OPS% .943, BA% .324 ... Spec = 238
Player D
ABs 571, Hits 190, Runs 132, Doubles 37, Triples 1, HRs 14, RBIs 67, SBs 51-58, OPS% .881, BA% .333 ... Spec = 199
Player E
ABs 634, Hits 173, Runs 113, Doubles 23, Triples 8, HRs 39, RBIs 132, SBs 20-33, OPS% .845, BA% .273 ... Spec = 245
The reason for the survey is that 3 of these players didn't make the playoffs ... and we like to see some adjustments for MVP Stats over a team making the playoffs. Barry Bonds won MVPs without any post-season glory. Stats should override a player's team making the playoffs ... a suggestion.
Try not to cheat ...
Maze
Most Valuable Player Reasoning (taking STATS into more consideration)
September 08, 2016 at 05:43PM View BBCode
Like to take a survey ... Which player won the MVP?Spec stat = Runs Scored + RBIs
Player A
ABs 689, Hits 227, Runs 140, Doubles 38, Triples 7, HRs 17, RBIs 83, SBs 18-24, OPS% .871, BA% .329 ... Spec = 223
Player B
ABs 616, Hits 197, Runs 134, Doubles 26, Triples 13, HRs 42, RBIs 122 SBs 20-24, OPS% 1.000, BA% .320 ... Spec = 256
Player C
ABs 586, Hits 190, Runs 109, Doubles 27, Triples 4, HRs 33, RBIs 129, SBs 6-8 OPS% .943, BA% .324 ... Spec = 238
Player D
ABs 571, Hits 190, Runs 132, Doubles 37, Triples 1, HRs 14, RBIs 67, SBs 51-58, OPS% .881, BA% .333 ... Spec = 199
Player E
ABs 634, Hits 173, Runs 113, Doubles 23, Triples 8, HRs 39, RBIs 132, SBs 20-33, OPS% .845, BA% .273 ... Spec = 245
The reason for the survey is that 3 of these players didn't make the playoffs ... and we like to see some adjustments for MVP Stats over a team making the playoffs. Barry Bonds won MVPs without any post-season glory. Stats should override a player's team making the playoffs ... a suggestion.
Try not to cheat ...
Maze
dirtdevil
I disagree. it's the most valuable player, not most outstanding player. that implies some level of team success should be taken into consideration, especially in close races. if you don't want team performance to have any impact then change the award to something else.
September 08, 2016 at 06:41PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Maze
Stats should override a player's team making the playoffs
I disagree. it's the most valuable player, not most outstanding player. that implies some level of team success should be taken into consideration, especially in close races. if you don't want team performance to have any impact then change the award to something else.
tworoosters
The formula for MVPs is (Hits * 1.5) + 2B + 3B + (HR * 2.5) + (RBI * 2.5) + BB + (Runs * 2) + SB + Average Bonuses + Team Bonus + League Leader Bonus + Player Bonus + Monster Stat Bonus. Average Bonus is +/-2 points per pct above/below .300 AVG +/-1.25 points per pct above/below .400 OBP +/-1.5 points per pct above/below .475 SLG. For Team Bonus, you get +150 within 5 games of making the playoffs, +60 for 90 Wins, +100 for 100 Wins, and +115 for 115 Wins, if in first place you get games ahead *2, if more than 10 games back of 1st place then games back *-2, +/-20 points for each spot in the standings your team improved/declined verses the previous season. For League Leader Bonus, you get 10 points for leading the league in HR, RBI, or AVG and 5 points for leading the league in SB or Runs. The Player Bonus, you get a Defensive position bonus SS(190), C(185), 2B(130), RF(140), 3B(30), CF(30), if the player is new to the team this season you get +50, if the player previously won the MVP you get -100. The Monster Stat bonus, you get 1 point per HR if you hit 50 or more HRs, .333 per RBI if you get 140 or more RBI, and 1 point per SB if you steal 50 or more bases.
The bonus points for team success are entirely appropriate in my opinion as team success is the ultimate goal of any team sport. The name of the award is, as DD, points out Most Valuable Player, not Best Hitter or Guy with the Best Stats.
I have waged the argument for years regarding the Ted Williams vs Joe DiMaggio MVP argument in 1941. For those not familiar 1941 was the year Williams hit .406 with a slash of .406/.553/.735 while DiMaggio's slash was only .357/.440/.643, but DiMaggio's team won the American League while Boston finished 17 games back .
My point was always "How valuable was Williams if his team finished 17 games back ?"
September 08, 2016 at 10:07PM View BBCode
The sim MVP formula is heavily stat weighted:The formula for MVPs is (Hits * 1.5) + 2B + 3B + (HR * 2.5) + (RBI * 2.5) + BB + (Runs * 2) + SB + Average Bonuses + Team Bonus + League Leader Bonus + Player Bonus + Monster Stat Bonus. Average Bonus is +/-2 points per pct above/below .300 AVG +/-1.25 points per pct above/below .400 OBP +/-1.5 points per pct above/below .475 SLG. For Team Bonus, you get +150 within 5 games of making the playoffs, +60 for 90 Wins, +100 for 100 Wins, and +115 for 115 Wins, if in first place you get games ahead *2, if more than 10 games back of 1st place then games back *-2, +/-20 points for each spot in the standings your team improved/declined verses the previous season. For League Leader Bonus, you get 10 points for leading the league in HR, RBI, or AVG and 5 points for leading the league in SB or Runs. The Player Bonus, you get a Defensive position bonus SS(190), C(185), 2B(130), RF(140), 3B(30), CF(30), if the player is new to the team this season you get +50, if the player previously won the MVP you get -100. The Monster Stat bonus, you get 1 point per HR if you hit 50 or more HRs, .333 per RBI if you get 140 or more RBI, and 1 point per SB if you steal 50 or more bases.
The bonus points for team success are entirely appropriate in my opinion as team success is the ultimate goal of any team sport. The name of the award is, as DD, points out Most Valuable Player, not Best Hitter or Guy with the Best Stats.
I have waged the argument for years regarding the Ted Williams vs Joe DiMaggio MVP argument in 1941. For those not familiar 1941 was the year Williams hit .406 with a slash of .406/.553/.735 while DiMaggio's slash was only .357/.440/.643, but DiMaggio's team won the American League while Boston finished 17 games back .
My point was always "How valuable was Williams if his team finished 17 games back ?"
paulcaraccio
"We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."
September 08, 2016 at 11:56PM View BBCode
not MVP-related, but reminds me of a great quote from a GM to Ralph Kiner, who was asking for a raise..."We finished last with you, we can finish last without you."
Maze
How many MLB teams are there? 32? An indication the stats lean towards playoff teams in the race. Plus, since the expansion of the playoffs (especially from this particular format of only 16 teams battling for a title) in MLB, more players qualify according to this theory. Let's take 1941 for example, if one checks the voting, was it a landslide?
According to http://www.baseball-reference.com/
In 1911, Frank Schulte and Ty Cobb won the MVP awarded by the writers, but neither went to da playoffs.
Schulte's stats (his only MVP season) went as follows:
ABs 577, Hits 173, Runs 105, Doubles 30, Triples 21, HRs 21(r-1), RBIs 107 (r-1), SBs 23-23, OPS% .918, BA% .300 ... Spec = 212
1913, Big Train Walter Johnson's team didn't make the playoffs ... nor his counter-part that year Jake Daubert
1926 George Burns, 1928 Mickey Cochrane, 1932-33 Jimmie Foxx, 1932 Chuck Klein, 1937 Charlie Gehringer, 1937 Joe Medwick (Spec = 265), 1938 Ernie Lombardi, 1943 Spud Chandelr, 1944 Hal Newhouser, 1947 Bob Elliott, 1948 Stan Musial, 1949 Ted Williams ...
All before 1950 ... the formula is off.
Then again, all we asked was for a survey of which player won the MVP. And still no action ...
Maze
September 09, 2016 at 06:41PM View BBCode
The comparison to MLB is way over utilized here...How many MLB teams are there? 32? An indication the stats lean towards playoff teams in the race. Plus, since the expansion of the playoffs (especially from this particular format of only 16 teams battling for a title) in MLB, more players qualify according to this theory. Let's take 1941 for example, if one checks the voting, was it a landslide?
According to http://www.baseball-reference.com/
In 1911, Frank Schulte and Ty Cobb won the MVP awarded by the writers, but neither went to da playoffs.
Schulte's stats (his only MVP season) went as follows:
ABs 577, Hits 173, Runs 105, Doubles 30, Triples 21, HRs 21(r-1), RBIs 107 (r-1), SBs 23-23, OPS% .918, BA% .300 ... Spec = 212
1913, Big Train Walter Johnson's team didn't make the playoffs ... nor his counter-part that year Jake Daubert
1926 George Burns, 1928 Mickey Cochrane, 1932-33 Jimmie Foxx, 1932 Chuck Klein, 1937 Charlie Gehringer, 1937 Joe Medwick (Spec = 265), 1938 Ernie Lombardi, 1943 Spud Chandelr, 1944 Hal Newhouser, 1947 Bob Elliott, 1948 Stan Musial, 1949 Ted Williams ...
All before 1950 ... the formula is off.
Then again, all we asked was for a survey of which player won the MVP. And still no action ...
Maze
dirtdevil
that's a strange thing to say about a simulation of major league baseball.
I imagine there are a couple of reasons for that. one, for some of us (myself included) the stats are meaningless without reference points. two, it seems likely from the tone of your original post that what you're looking for isn't a series of opinions on who people would pick for the mvp so much as evidence to support your idea that team success shouldn't be a significant factor. when you have a seemingly obvious agenda people don't always want to play.
September 09, 2016 at 08:55PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Maze
The comparison to MLB is way over utilized here...
that's a strange thing to say about a simulation of major league baseball.
again, all we asked was for a survey of which player won the MVP. And still no action ...
I imagine there are a couple of reasons for that. one, for some of us (myself included) the stats are meaningless without reference points. two, it seems likely from the tone of your original post that what you're looking for isn't a series of opinions on who people would pick for the mvp so much as evidence to support your idea that team success shouldn't be a significant factor. when you have a seemingly obvious agenda people don't always want to play.
Lyrici17
Player B
Player E
Player A
Player C
Player D
September 11, 2016 at 08:12AM View BBCode
I'll play.... I wish I knew how many BB's these players had, but if voting nonetheless, I'd vote in this order:Player B
Player E
Player A
Player C
Player D
Maze
TY Lyrici17 ... anyone else?
September 11, 2016 at 08:13PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Lyrici17
I'll play.... I wish I knew how many BB's these players had, but if voting nonetheless, I'd vote in this order:
Player B
Player E
Player A
Player C
Player D
TY Lyrici17 ... anyone else?
bostonhitz
The sports writers hated Williams, that's why he never won more. Just take a look at the MVP awards for 1942, 1947, 1957(which has less of an argument), and in 1951 when he finished 13th but led the league in WAR.
Basically the award has never had a clear-cut definition. It isn't the best player nor is it best player on a winning team. The writers vote, plain and simple.
The MLB Gold Glove is an entirely different story, just look at Jeter lol- although this is an unrelated argument I had to add my 2 cents.
[Edited on 9-15-2016 by bostonhitz]
September 15, 2016 at 07:51PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
The sim MVP formula is heavily stat weighted:
The formula for MVPs is (Hits * 1.5) + 2B + 3B + (HR * 2.5) + (RBI * 2.5) + BB + (Runs * 2) + SB + Average Bonuses + Team Bonus + League Leader Bonus + Player Bonus + Monster Stat Bonus. Average Bonus is +/-2 points per pct above/below .300 AVG +/-1.25 points per pct above/below .400 OBP +/-1.5 points per pct above/below .475 SLG. For Team Bonus, you get +150 within 5 games of making the playoffs, +60 for 90 Wins, +100 for 100 Wins, and +115 for 115 Wins, if in first place you get games ahead *2, if more than 10 games back of 1st place then games back *-2, +/-20 points for each spot in the standings your team improved/declined verses the previous season. For League Leader Bonus, you get 10 points for leading the league in HR, RBI, or AVG and 5 points for leading the league in SB or Runs. The Player Bonus, you get a Defensive position bonus SS(190), C(185), 2B(130), RF(140), 3B(30), CF(30), if the player is new to the team this season you get +50, if the player previously won the MVP you get -100. The Monster Stat bonus, you get 1 point per HR if you hit 50 or more HRs, .333 per RBI if you get 140 or more RBI, and 1 point per SB if you steal 50 or more bases.
The bonus points for team success are entirely appropriate in my opinion as team success is the ultimate goal of any team sport. The name of the award is, as DD, points out Most Valuable Player, not Best Hitter or Guy with the Best Stats.
I have waged the argument for years regarding the Ted Williams vs Joe DiMaggio MVP argument in 1941. For those not familiar 1941 was the year Williams hit .406 with a slash of .406/.553/.735 while DiMaggio's slash was only .357/.440/.643, but DiMaggio's team won the American League while Boston finished 17 games back .
My point was always "How valuable was Williams if his team finished 17 games back ?"
The sports writers hated Williams, that's why he never won more. Just take a look at the MVP awards for 1942, 1947, 1957(which has less of an argument), and in 1951 when he finished 13th but led the league in WAR.
Basically the award has never had a clear-cut definition. It isn't the best player nor is it best player on a winning team. The writers vote, plain and simple.
The MLB Gold Glove is an entirely different story, just look at Jeter lol- although this is an unrelated argument I had to add my 2 cents.
[Edited on 9-15-2016 by bostonhitz]
tworoosters
Gold Gloves are voted on by the major league managers with the only condition being they cannot vote for their own players so yeah, what do those guys know about baseball .
September 15, 2016 at 10:22PM View BBCode
Originally posted by bostonhitz
The MLB Gold Glove is an entirely different story, just look at Jeter lol- although this is an unrelated argument I had to add my 2 cents.
Gold Gloves are voted on by the major league managers with the only condition being they cannot vote for their own players so yeah, what do those guys know about baseball .
dirtdevil
September 16, 2016 at 02:38AM View BBCode
I don't know, man. how many of them wrote David Eckstein's name on a lineup card because he was "scrappy" and "played the game the right way"?
tworoosters
Less than his MVP votes, he got 39 over the course of his career including finishing 11th in 2002 .
September 16, 2016 at 03:08AM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
I don't know, man. how many of them wrote David Eckstein's name on a lineup card because he was "scrappy" and "played the game the right way"?
Less than his MVP votes, he got 39 over the course of his career including finishing 11th in 2002 .
Maze
September 17, 2016 at 04:36PM View BBCode
any guesses out there for the survey? Nothing to lose - really ...
Maze
Select in order A-E
September 17, 2016 at 04:41PM View BBCode
Take a survey ... Which player won the MVP?
Spec stat = Runs Scored + RBIs
Player A
ABs 689, Hits 227, Runs 140, Doubles 38, Triples 7, HRs 17, RBIs 83, SBs 18-24, OPS% .871, BA% .329 ... Spec = 223
Player B
ABs 616, Hits 197, Runs 134, Doubles 26, Triples 13, HRs 42, RBIs 122 SBs 20-24, OPS% 1.000, BA% .320 ... Spec = 256
Player C
ABs 586, Hits 190, Runs 109, Doubles 27, Triples 4, HRs 33, RBIs 129, SBs 6-8 OPS% .943, BA% .324 ... Spec = 238
Player D
ABs 571, Hits 190, Runs 132, Doubles 37, Triples 1, HRs 14, RBIs 67, SBs 51-58, OPS% .881, BA% .333 ... Spec = 199
Player E
ABs 634, Hits 173, Runs 113, Doubles 23, Triples 8, HRs 39, RBIs 132, SBs 20-33, OPS% .845, BA% .273 ... Spec = 245
The reason for the survey is that 3 of these players didn't make the playoffs ... and we like to see some adjustments for MVP Stats over a team making the playoffs ... a suggestion.
Try not to cheat ...
Maze
Select in order A-E
dirtdevil
September 17, 2016 at 05:17PM View BBCode
why don't you just tell us what the answer you want is?
tworoosters
Based on the highly important Spec Stat I'd guess he wants it to be B
September 17, 2016 at 05:34PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
why don't you just tell us what the answer you want is?
Based on the highly important Spec Stat I'd guess he wants it to be B
Maze
Since there were very few takers ... the results:
Player A won the MVP
Player B came in 2nd
Player C took 3rd in voting
Players D and E didn't even make the top five in voting
Player A won by only 19 points over B ... plus, A and C, who played on the same team, made the playoffs ... B, D and E did not.
Thanks for participating in the survey
October 22, 2016 at 10:47AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Maze
Spec stat = Runs Scored + RBIs
Player A
ABs 689, Hits 227, Runs 140, Doubles 38, Triples 7, HRs 17, RBIs 83, SBs 18-24, OPS% .871, BA% .329 ... Spec = 223
Player B
ABs 616, Hits 197, Runs 134, Doubles 26, Triples 13, HRs 42, RBIs 122 SBs 20-24, OPS% 1.000, BA% .320 ... Spec = 256
Player C
ABs 586, Hits 190, Runs 109, Doubles 27, Triples 4, HRs 33, RBIs 129, SBs 6-8 OPS% .943, BA% .324 ... Spec = 238
Player D
ABs 571, Hits 190, Runs 132, Doubles 37, Triples 1, HRs 14, RBIs 67, SBs 51-58, OPS% .881, BA% .333 ... Spec = 199
Player E
ABs 634, Hits 173, Runs 113, Doubles 23, Triples 8, HRs 39, RBIs 132, SBs 20-33, OPS% .845, BA% .273 ... Spec = 245
The reason for the survey is that 3 of these players didn't make the playoffs ... and we like to see some adjustments for MVP Stats over a team making the playoffs. Barry Bonds won MVPs without any post-season glory. Stats should override a player's team making the playoffs ... a suggestion.
Try not to cheat ...
Maze
Since there were very few takers ... the results:
Player A won the MVP
Player B came in 2nd
Player C took 3rd in voting
Players D and E didn't even make the top five in voting
Player A won by only 19 points over B ... plus, A and C, who played on the same team, made the playoffs ... B, D and E did not.
Thanks for participating in the survey
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