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ironhorse
154 vs 162
July 23, 2005 at 09:39PM View BBCode
[color=Black]I was going through the numbers for a moment and thought that too much credit is being given out to the current stars as opposed to the old timers going back at least 100 years.[/color] We talk about how Bonds 73 will never be reached, or Henderson's 2,245 walks will never be broken. Then I thought, what if Foxx and Gehrig, Babe and Cobb, Williams and Dago, and the rest (pre-1960) could have played their carreers in a 162 gm format for their entire carreers. Although Mays and Aaron played the bulk of their years in it, we got to see how they fared. Surely, Foxx would have reached 60 in 1932 with those extra 8 gms, but then, what would Ruth have done? Makes me wonder.:cool:
1tim412
It already has by Barroid.
July 25, 2005 at 05:46AM View BBCode
Henderson's 2,245 walks will never be broken.
It already has by Barroid.
lvnwrth
They tried putting an asterik by Maris' 61 homers, but people generally accepted that record and the asterik was dropped. But I don' t think anyone over about 30...anyone who has good memories of guys who were both great and clean (Yount, Brett, Schmidt, Henderson, etc)...is ever going to be able to accept the validity of the offensive numbers posted since the 1994 strike.
July 25, 2005 at 11:57AM View BBCode
Over a lengthy career, an 8-game difference adds about a season's worth of stats to a player's career. I think steroids has added more than that.They tried putting an asterik by Maris' 61 homers, but people generally accepted that record and the asterik was dropped. But I don' t think anyone over about 30...anyone who has good memories of guys who were both great and clean (Yount, Brett, Schmidt, Henderson, etc)...is ever going to be able to accept the validity of the offensive numbers posted since the 1994 strike.
DougB
Who knows...
700 home runs?
2400 Runs
2500 RBI
2700 Walks
I think those are conservative numbers. But hey today's player has to deal with strikes, suspensions, and hurricane damage to his private Caribbean Island.
July 25, 2005 at 12:38PM View BBCode
What would Ted Williams' career numbers have looked like if he didn't serve in WWII, Korea, get hurt in the 1950 all-star game, AND had 162 game seasons?Who knows...
700 home runs?
2400 Runs
2500 RBI
2700 Walks
I think those are conservative numbers. But hey today's player has to deal with strikes, suspensions, and hurricane damage to his private Caribbean Island.
lvnwrth
Strikes? Self-inflicted wound by the players, so no sympathy from me on that count.
Williams? I used Bill James Brock II formula and plugged in Williams average season for the three seasons immediately prior to his departure, then ran the projections for the war years he missd. I didn't adjust for injury because that's part of the game.
Williams finished in the top 5 in every offensive category except triples and stolen bases. Was 2nd all-time in HR, 1st in walks. I am, perhaps, not in the majority. But I believe Teddy Ballgame was the best hitter ever.
July 25, 2005 at 03:37PM View BBCode
Suspensions have been a factor for at least 85 years. Ask Joe Jackson, Buck Weaver, Ed Cicotte...Strikes? Self-inflicted wound by the players, so no sympathy from me on that count.
Williams? I used Bill James Brock II formula and plugged in Williams average season for the three seasons immediately prior to his departure, then ran the projections for the war years he missd. I didn't adjust for injury because that's part of the game.
Williams finished in the top 5 in every offensive category except triples and stolen bases. Was 2nd all-time in HR, 1st in walks. I am, perhaps, not in the majority. But I believe Teddy Ballgame was the best hitter ever.
folifan19
July 25, 2005 at 05:01PM View BBCode
I agree with you, The Splinter was the greatest hitter ever.
Unclescam777
Old time baseball players had a lot going against them. 154 game seasons instead of 162, long bus and train rides instead of cushy jets, working/playing ball in the winter to pay the bills (no time for rest), less medicines and treatments, better weight lifting/exercise technology, a higher pitcher's mound, larger ballparks, etc.
The list goes on and on. Baseball players these days have a significant advantage (especially hitters) without steroids. Facter in the cheaters who juice up and the advantage is overwhelming.
Do you think Manny Ramirez could actually be a superstar back when Babe Ruth played? He would have hit .220 with 10 HRs and hundreds of outfield pop ups. He would have been laughed off the field for striking out so much, then Joe Jackson would show him up in the field and Ty Cobb would spike him for playing with his head down. Then when Manny finally does hit a HR any big league pitcher would nail him between the eyes his next AB for watching his HR.
The players of old were fierce. Today's players are lazy and have many advantages. I spit on current batting records.
July 27, 2005 at 05:06PM View BBCode
I'm pretty young so I wasn't around when the baseball legends played but even I think that the players of old were better. I'm also one of the few young people who doesn't believe in hitting records broken after the strike, as well as what seems like the only person on Earth who doesn't have an orgasm when someone hits 500 HRs (like 499 is so much worse).Old time baseball players had a lot going against them. 154 game seasons instead of 162, long bus and train rides instead of cushy jets, working/playing ball in the winter to pay the bills (no time for rest), less medicines and treatments, better weight lifting/exercise technology, a higher pitcher's mound, larger ballparks, etc.
The list goes on and on. Baseball players these days have a significant advantage (especially hitters) without steroids. Facter in the cheaters who juice up and the advantage is overwhelming.
Do you think Manny Ramirez could actually be a superstar back when Babe Ruth played? He would have hit .220 with 10 HRs and hundreds of outfield pop ups. He would have been laughed off the field for striking out so much, then Joe Jackson would show him up in the field and Ty Cobb would spike him for playing with his head down. Then when Manny finally does hit a HR any big league pitcher would nail him between the eyes his next AB for watching his HR.
The players of old were fierce. Today's players are lazy and have many advantages. I spit on current batting records.
andrew
Don't the fact that both pitchers and hitters have those advantages neutralize them?
July 27, 2005 at 05:15PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
long bus and train rides instead of cushy jets, working/playing ball in the winter to pay the bills (no time for rest), less medicines and treatments, better weight lifting/exercise technology, a higher pitcher's mound, larger ballparks, etc.
Don't the fact that both pitchers and hitters have those advantages neutralize them?
Unclescam777
July 27, 2005 at 05:24PM View BBCode
I don't think so Andrew because I've always been one to believe that pitchers are babied too much nowadays. IMO pitching 15 innings games helps a pitcher's arm, not hurts it. When it comes time to pitch a 9 inning complete game a guy who has gone 15 innings before will put less strain on his arm pitching 9 innings than the guy who is used to throwing 6 innings.
drunkengoat
July 27, 2005 at 05:26PM View BBCode
It's good to know my feelings toward modern day pitchers isn't by itself.
FuriousGiorge
How stupid. Are you going to tell us stories about how people back then walked 6 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways to get to school? Or about how Julia Roberts couldn't hold a candle to Lillian Gish? Or maybe you'll regale us of tales about how Gentleman Jim Corbett would have put that uppity negro Cassius Clay in his place.
Every objective measurement in athletics says they are stronger, faster, more agile, have better hand-eye coordination, can throw harder and further and anything else than people 2, 3, 4 decades ago. But in baseball, because they get to ride on aeroplanes and have massages instead of riding trains and rubbing dirt into their cuts, that means they're softer and crappier? Give me a fucking break.
July 27, 2005 at 08:47PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
I'm pretty young so I wasn't around when the baseball legends played but even I think that the players of old were better.
The players of old were fierce. Today's players are lazy and have many advantages. I spit on current batting records.
How stupid. Are you going to tell us stories about how people back then walked 6 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways to get to school? Or about how Julia Roberts couldn't hold a candle to Lillian Gish? Or maybe you'll regale us of tales about how Gentleman Jim Corbett would have put that uppity negro Cassius Clay in his place.
Every objective measurement in athletics says they are stronger, faster, more agile, have better hand-eye coordination, can throw harder and further and anything else than people 2, 3, 4 decades ago. But in baseball, because they get to ride on aeroplanes and have massages instead of riding trains and rubbing dirt into their cuts, that means they're softer and crappier? Give me a fucking break.
Unclescam777
If it makes you happy big boy.
July 28, 2005 at 02:15PM View BBCode
How stupid. Are you going to tell us stories about how people back then walked 6 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways to get to school? Or about how Julia Roberts couldn't hold a candle to Lillian Gish? Or maybe you'll regale us of tales about how Gentleman Jim Corbett would have put that uppity negro Cassius Clay in his place.
If it makes you happy big boy.
barterer2002
My grandfather used to claim that he'd have to walk uphill to school in the morning and then by the time he was ready to go home the earth had, of course, rotated on its axis so that now the walk home was also uphill.
July 28, 2005 at 02:23PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Are you going to tell us stories about how people back then walked 6 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways to get to school?
My grandfather used to claim that he'd have to walk uphill to school in the morning and then by the time he was ready to go home the earth had, of course, rotated on its axis so that now the walk home was also uphill.
FuriousGiorge
Actually, I'd be more interested in hearing why every measurement says that athletes are becoming better every year, but somehow baseball players are regressing and getting worse.
In fact, this whole stupid topic is just another example of how baseball fans' infantile obsession with career counting stat totals and round numbers means that real discourse always takes a backseat to whatever comes out of some asshole's adding machine. Babe Ruth was the same player in 154 games that he would have been in 162, and if he had added another, say, 50 home runs to his career total it wouldn't have meant that he was a better player. If I have to hear one more discussion about magic numbers for the Hall of Fame I am going to the top of a clock tower with a briefcase full of suffering.
July 28, 2005 at 05:18PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
How stupid. Are you going to tell us stories about how people back then walked 6 miles in the snow, barefoot, uphill both ways to get to school? Or about how Julia Roberts couldn't hold a candle to Lillian Gish? Or maybe you'll regale us of tales about how Gentleman Jim Corbett would have put that uppity negro Cassius Clay in his place.
If it makes you happy big boy.
Actually, I'd be more interested in hearing why every measurement says that athletes are becoming better every year, but somehow baseball players are regressing and getting worse.
In fact, this whole stupid topic is just another example of how baseball fans' infantile obsession with career counting stat totals and round numbers means that real discourse always takes a backseat to whatever comes out of some asshole's adding machine. Babe Ruth was the same player in 154 games that he would have been in 162, and if he had added another, say, 50 home runs to his career total it wouldn't have meant that he was a better player. If I have to hear one more discussion about magic numbers for the Hall of Fame I am going to the top of a clock tower with a briefcase full of suffering.
lvnwrth
Or maybe she'd just be a freak.:lol:
July 28, 2005 at 05:31PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle.
Or maybe she'd just be a freak.:lol:
folifan19
I wonder if he would have put those types of numbers up in a career played in the 154 game season era??:lol:
[Edited on 7-28-2005 by folifan19]
July 28, 2005 at 05:35PM View BBCode
Palmeiro is a shoe in for the HALL with 3000 hits and 500 HRs:PI wonder if he would have put those types of numbers up in a career played in the 154 game season era??:lol:
[Edited on 7-28-2005 by folifan19]
barterer2002
Magic numbers for the Hall of Fame
500 Home Runs
3000 Hits
300 wins
3000 strikeouts
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'll look for you on the news tonight FG
July 28, 2005 at 08:02PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
If I have to hear one more discussion about magic numbers for the Hall of Fame I am going to the top of a clock tower with a briefcase full of suffering.
Magic numbers for the Hall of Fame
500 Home Runs
3000 Hits
300 wins
3000 strikeouts
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'll look for you on the news tonight FG
folifan19
Damnation Bart, I think of something first for the first time in my OT life, and you gottta go and say it too! I'll bet you'll even take the credit for making Furious jump too!:lol::lol:
July 28, 2005 at 08:22PM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
If I have to hear one more discussion about magic numbers for the Hall of Fame I am going to the top of a clock tower with a briefcase full of suffering.
Magic numbers for the Hall of Fame
500 Home Runs
3000 Hits
300 wins
3000 strikeouts
:lol::lol::lol::lol::lol:
I'll look for you on the news tonight FG
Damnation Bart, I think of something first for the first time in my OT life, and you gottta go and say it too! I'll bet you'll even take the credit for making Furious jump too!:lol::lol:
DougB
Yes. Sort of. But none of us would know who he was. He might have hit .600 playing against a bunch of farmers from Ohio. Or he migt have hit tape measure home runs in Cuba. But he certainly would not have played on the Red Sox.
July 28, 2005 at 08:33PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
Do you think Manny Ramirez could actually be a superstar back when Babe Ruth played?
Yes. Sort of. But none of us would know who he was. He might have hit .600 playing against a bunch of farmers from Ohio. Or he migt have hit tape measure home runs in Cuba. But he certainly would not have played on the Red Sox.
folifan19
July 28, 2005 at 08:33PM View BBCode
Bummer. Now I understand. Glad I don't live in Virginia.
DougB
thankfully there are no clock towers within 300 yards of where I travel.
July 28, 2005 at 08:39PM View BBCode
Jesse Orosco's 1,250 games makes him a shoo-in for the hall of fame.thankfully there are no clock towers within 300 yards of where I travel.
ME
July 29, 2005 at 06:19AM View BBCode
I think we should set the magic number at 120 career+peak WARP.
FuriousGiorge
July 29, 2005 at 02:41PM View BBCode
I think a bullet at the base of your skull would probably bring you down.Pages: 1