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tysonlowery
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2194428&CMP=OTC-DT9705204233
I wonder why he's leaving Atlanta? Is it just for money?
Orioles Get Mazzone
October 21, 2005 at 04:23AM View BBCode
Leo Mazzone will be the O's pitching coach next season:http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2194428&CMP=OTC-DT9705204233
I wonder why he's leaving Atlanta? Is it just for money?
hobos
And the money, he made only $200K for the Braves last year
October 21, 2005 at 04:58AM View BBCode
He and Perlozzo were childhood friends, notice Perlozzo was Mazzone's best man at his wedding.And the money, he made only $200K for the Braves last year
yankeekid
October 21, 2005 at 01:28PM View BBCode
Its really sad... only 200k as if thats some puny little small amount of money!
lvnwrth
October 21, 2005 at 03:41PM View BBCode
Well, I'm guessing most of us could figure out how to survive on a puny $200K per year. But, when you look at what this guy has accomplished in Atlanta, it does seem like he should be making more than that after all these years.
hobos
October 21, 2005 at 06:27PM View BBCode
I knew I'd get in trouble for saying "only." Considering what he has done, and compared to top coaching talent, $200K isn't a lot. But I really think the fact that he's such good friends with Perlozzo means a lot more. The Yanks were probably offering him a lot more
tysonlowery
October 21, 2005 at 06:41PM View BBCode
I agree - 200K is cheap for a guy like Mazzone - I figured he was getting paid like $1M. If I was a GM, I would take whatever you were going to spend on a high end free agent pitcher (say $15M per year) give $5M of that to Mazzone and then get 5 reclamation projects at $2M per year per guy. You'd probably have the best staff in the league.
FuriousGiorge
October 21, 2005 at 07:20PM View BBCode
If Mazzone can work his magic on the Orioles pitching staff, he should be elevated from "probably should be a Hall of Famer" to "Minor Deity".
yankeekid
October 21, 2005 at 07:34PM View BBCode
He does deserve more than 200k but its still sad how much they get paid for a game!
FuriousGiorge
October 21, 2005 at 07:36PM View BBCode
You do realize that the reason they make so much money is that people like you continue to buy Derek Jeter Underoos.
yankeekid
[Edited on 10-21-2005 by yankeekid]
October 21, 2005 at 07:41PM View BBCode
The reason is that people not like me buy that crap. I own no piece of Yankee clothing except for some hats. But I understand you don't want to feel alone being the only one decked out in baseball clothing... and :ahem: underoos.[Edited on 10-21-2005 by yankeekid]
youngallstar
Who knew, yankeekid has some potential after all
October 21, 2005 at 07:45PM View BBCode
Originally posted by yankeekid
The reason is that people not like me buy that crap. I own no piece of Yankee clothing except for some hats. But I understand you don't want to feel alone being the only one decked out in baseball clothing... and :ahem: underoos.
[Edited on 10-21-2005 by yankeekid]
Who knew, yankeekid has some potential after all
tysonlowery
They did add Duquette to the front office as well - so that may effectively cancel out the Mazzone move.
As for the money thing, he deserves to make whatever the free market dictates he should make. 28 teams in the big leagues have a budget. I'm just saying that if I ran one of those teams, I believe that budget would be more effectively spent on acquiring a guy like Mazzone than chasing after the Matt Clements of the world.
October 21, 2005 at 07:56PM View BBCode
I think he should be in the hall of fame. We'll see what he does with the Orioles - if he has the same kind of success, I think he will be in the hall of fame for sure. The Orioles have a bunch of guys that have looked good for stretches in their careers - Mazzone seems to work wonders with those types of pitchers. Guys like Cabrera, Chen, James Baldwin, Jorge Julio.They did add Duquette to the front office as well - so that may effectively cancel out the Mazzone move.
As for the money thing, he deserves to make whatever the free market dictates he should make. 28 teams in the big leagues have a budget. I'm just saying that if I ran one of those teams, I believe that budget would be more effectively spent on acquiring a guy like Mazzone than chasing after the Matt Clements of the world.
tysonlowery
Prediction: Atlanta will not win the NL East in 2006.
October 21, 2005 at 07:58PM View BBCode
O's fans who know baseball have got to be pumped about this.Prediction: Atlanta will not win the NL East in 2006.
FuriousGiorge
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, Mazzone has done good things with his pitching staffs. Seemingly, he's a good tutor and mentor to pitchers. But the difference between a good pitcher and an average one is still talent and ability, not "who's coaching him?" I'm not unhappy that the O's hired Mazzone, he's a fine pickup. But people are going to go WAY overboard on this, maybe even going so far as to say the O's have a chance to go to the playoffs in 2006. They don't. If you don't have the horses, and the O's don't, a pitching coach can only take you so far.
That Jeter is a fiesty one.
October 21, 2005 at 08:07PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tysonlowery
I'm just saying that if I ran one of those teams, I believe that budget would be more effectively spent on acquiring a guy like Mazzone than chasing after the Matt Clements of the world.
I couldn't disagree more. Yes, Mazzone has done good things with his pitching staffs. Seemingly, he's a good tutor and mentor to pitchers. But the difference between a good pitcher and an average one is still talent and ability, not "who's coaching him?" I'm not unhappy that the O's hired Mazzone, he's a fine pickup. But people are going to go WAY overboard on this, maybe even going so far as to say the O's have a chance to go to the playoffs in 2006. They don't. If you don't have the horses, and the O's don't, a pitching coach can only take you so far.
That Jeter is a fiesty one.
ME
October 21, 2005 at 08:12PM View BBCode
[url=http://bradbury.sewanee.edu/wordpress/index.php/2004/12/how-good-is-leo-mazzone]This[/url] says that he's very good.
skierdude44
This is a very good point. Yes, Mazzone had a big hand in Atlanta's success over the past decade and a half, but so did a lot of other people (like John Shuerholtz for example). And let's also not forget that for the majority of his tenure in Atlanta he had the likes of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz who would be terrific pitchers no matter who their coach was. He's done great jobs with pitchers like Jaret Wright and such but not everything he touches turns to gold. The Orioles have some talent for him to work with and maybe guys like Bedard and Cabrera will emerge, but they might just be duds as well.
October 22, 2005 at 02:00AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
If you don't have the horses, and the O's don't, a pitching coach can only take you so far.
This is a very good point. Yes, Mazzone had a big hand in Atlanta's success over the past decade and a half, but so did a lot of other people (like John Shuerholtz for example). And let's also not forget that for the majority of his tenure in Atlanta he had the likes of Greg Maddux, Tom Glavine, and John Smoltz who would be terrific pitchers no matter who their coach was. He's done great jobs with pitchers like Jaret Wright and such but not everything he touches turns to gold. The Orioles have some talent for him to work with and maybe guys like Bedard and Cabrera will emerge, but they might just be duds as well.
Duff77
I can't disagree. The top limit for any pitcher *is* talent. But the Braves have always seemed able to maximize whatever talent was available to them. That can only be a boon to the Orioles, who have a long history of wasting talent even when they have it. We know this much anyway: If Bedard, Cabrerra, Maine, etc. do actually have potential, we should know in a year or two.
Frankly, the Orioles pitching isn't that bad...at least compared to their offense, which is a disgrace. And I can only hope the addition of a good pitching coach helps pursuade B.J. Ryan to stick around...though I doubt it.
October 22, 2005 at 02:47AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
If you don't have the horses, and the O's don't, a pitching coach can only take you so far.
I can't disagree. The top limit for any pitcher *is* talent. But the Braves have always seemed able to maximize whatever talent was available to them. That can only be a boon to the Orioles, who have a long history of wasting talent even when they have it. We know this much anyway: If Bedard, Cabrerra, Maine, etc. do actually have potential, we should know in a year or two.
Frankly, the Orioles pitching isn't that bad...at least compared to their offense, which is a disgrace. And I can only hope the addition of a good pitching coach helps pursuade B.J. Ryan to stick around...though I doubt it.
ABDREW
October 22, 2005 at 05:18AM View BBCode
Is it just me or is anyone else bothered by the fact that people keep bringing up a pitching coach for a future HOF nomination. The guy is a pitching coach not a mananger for christ sake.
Guvner
( Not a Yankees fan), but how about Stottlemyre? - he has to deal with a different pitching staff every year with a tyrant owner micro-managing him - often with over the hill rejects, and he's been to the Series a zillion times. Better than Mazzone?
October 22, 2005 at 12:49PM View BBCode
No way for HoF. If he gets in then I recommend that bat boys be eligible too. Schuerholtz, Cox, their farm system, and patience were their ingredients for success. Mazzone was a big part of the chemistry, but that chemistry was built for unemotional, intelligent, and steady endurance over a 162 game season, not intense do-or-die playoff baseball. Their repeated early round exits in the playoffs tell the story. Granted, they're winners and on an unbelievable run, but at the end of each year they're watching the WS on TV just like Tampa Bay.( Not a Yankees fan), but how about Stottlemyre? - he has to deal with a different pitching staff every year with a tyrant owner micro-managing him - often with over the hill rejects, and he's been to the Series a zillion times. Better than Mazzone?
FuriousGiorge
October 22, 2005 at 02:40PM View BBCode
Well the voters obviously agree with that sentiment, since they haven't elected any coaches. But the question is, why not? If a coach is responsible for a good deal of the success of his teams, as Leo Mazzone is generally accepted to be, then what is wrong with giving him the ultimate recognition for it? Obviously the standard would have to be high, but if a guy is clearly thought of as the best pitching coach of his generation, and maybe ever (although Johnny Sain might have something to say about that) then it seems very reasonable to me to at least bring up the possibility. If you ask me the Hall has been too conservative in recent years about inducting people who contributed off the field - no GM's, no scouts, people who have made major contributions to the game. I hope the electors get over their "only players" bias eventually and start putting in some of these worthy people.
tysonlowery
October 22, 2005 at 04:26PM View BBCode
Call me crazy - but I think the best pitching coach in the history of the game deserves to be in the hall of fame. Read what ME posted. Disciple sent me an email earlier this year about Mazzone - I couldn't find it though to post it. The article actually said that he learned a lot from Sain.
yankeekid
I'm actually gonna have to say no. He hasn't done as good of a job as he could and the only reason Yankee pitching ever does good is because they're good players. Hes sure not bad but not as good as Mazzone. Hes gone now... :(
October 22, 2005 at 05:04PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Guvner
( Not a Yankees fan), but how about Stottlemyre? - he has to deal with a different pitching staff every year with a tyrant owner micro-managing him - often with over the hill rejects, and he's been to the Series a zillion times. Better than Mazzone?
I'm actually gonna have to say no. He hasn't done as good of a job as he could and the only reason Yankee pitching ever does good is because they're good players. Hes sure not bad but not as good as Mazzone. Hes gone now... :(
Guvner
October 23, 2005 at 12:42AM View BBCode
All valid points. Keep in mind that broadcasters make the HoF, and they don't wear a uniform or contribute to wins and losses on the field. (Makes my point that bat boys are that much more legitimate - at least they wear a uniform!) Not sure how you would quantify how well a pitching coach performs. At least with managers you earn wins and losses.
Duff77
And it's not like anyone would be confused. Nobody would assume that Mazzone was as valuable as, say, HOF pitchers. I mean nobody except for morons.
October 23, 2005 at 11:44PM View BBCode
The Hall has never been just for players. It's for people from all aspects of the game, and I don't see why coaching can't be an aspect of the game. You might well argue that coaches (good ones, anyway) have more effect on what happens on the field than the managers.And it's not like anyone would be confused. Nobody would assume that Mazzone was as valuable as, say, HOF pitchers. I mean nobody except for morons.
barterer2002
Not even close.
October 24, 2005 at 02:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Guvner
(Makes my point that bat boys are that much more legitimate - at least they wear a uniform!)
Not even close.
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