 |
View Old Forum Thread
Old Forum Index » Other Stuff » Sports Talk » Best NFL Players Ever
cowboymatt43
1. Reggie White DE 163
2. Jerry Rice WR 160
3. Alan Page DT 157
4. Brett Favre QB 151
5. Bruce Smith DE 147
6. Dan Marino QB 146
7. Peyton Manning QB 144
8. Rod Woodson DB 142
9. Johnny Unitas QB 141
10. Carl Eller DE 140
t11. Merlin Oslen DT 139
t11. Lawrence Taylor LB 139
t11. Fran Tarkenton QB 139
t14. John Elway QB 138
t14. Derrick Brooks LB 138
16. Anthony Munoz OT 137
t17. Steve Young QB 135
t17. Ray Lewis LB 135
t19. Marshall Faulk RB 133
t19. Andy Robustelli DE 133
t19. Chuck Bednarik LB/C 133
22. Bill George LB 132
23. Emmitt Smith RB 129
t24. Bob Lilly DL 128
t24.Walter Payton RB 128
t24. Junior Seau LB 128
27. Joe Greene DT 127
28. Paul Krause DB 126
29. Mike Singletary LB 125
30. Marvin Harrison WR 124
Here's some quick analysis:
Defensive Players: 17; Offensive Players: 14
QBs: 7; RBs: 3; WRs: 2; TEs: 0; OL: 2; DL: 8; LB: 7; DB: 2; P/K: 0 (I was a little surprised to see so many DLs and so few RBs)
There also seems to be a good mix of older players and more recent ones (this metric only goes back to 1950, so no one older than that - so the Baugh, Graham, Tittle vs. Marino, Manning, and Favre will have to wait for another day)
No one stands out as a major snub, at least not right away. A factor of this metric in longevity, so some guys like Jim Brown and Barry Sanders are out as a result.
All in all, this seems like a pretty decent metric and a pretty good list too. However, since Larry Allen routinely schooled Reggie White in the 90's, does that make him the best OL ever? Just kidding! Really though, I love it that a DE is first and a WR is second. I think most people would assume that a RB or QB would be number one...just one more reason to like this metric!
(With the site being all wonky, I needed something to do!)
Best NFL Players Ever
March 23, 2010 at 09:12AM View BBCode
So I was just looking at Pro Football Reference and noticed the career AV metric that has been developed there. It is a number that attempts to allow the comparison of NFL players despite their teammates, eras, and positions. Here's the top 30. What do you think of the list?1. Reggie White DE 163
2. Jerry Rice WR 160
3. Alan Page DT 157
4. Brett Favre QB 151
5. Bruce Smith DE 147
6. Dan Marino QB 146
7. Peyton Manning QB 144
8. Rod Woodson DB 142
9. Johnny Unitas QB 141
10. Carl Eller DE 140
t11. Merlin Oslen DT 139
t11. Lawrence Taylor LB 139
t11. Fran Tarkenton QB 139
t14. John Elway QB 138
t14. Derrick Brooks LB 138
16. Anthony Munoz OT 137
t17. Steve Young QB 135
t17. Ray Lewis LB 135
t19. Marshall Faulk RB 133
t19. Andy Robustelli DE 133
t19. Chuck Bednarik LB/C 133
22. Bill George LB 132
23. Emmitt Smith RB 129
t24. Bob Lilly DL 128
t24.Walter Payton RB 128
t24. Junior Seau LB 128
27. Joe Greene DT 127
28. Paul Krause DB 126
29. Mike Singletary LB 125
30. Marvin Harrison WR 124
Here's some quick analysis:
Defensive Players: 17; Offensive Players: 14
QBs: 7; RBs: 3; WRs: 2; TEs: 0; OL: 2; DL: 8; LB: 7; DB: 2; P/K: 0 (I was a little surprised to see so many DLs and so few RBs)
There also seems to be a good mix of older players and more recent ones (this metric only goes back to 1950, so no one older than that - so the Baugh, Graham, Tittle vs. Marino, Manning, and Favre will have to wait for another day)
No one stands out as a major snub, at least not right away. A factor of this metric in longevity, so some guys like Jim Brown and Barry Sanders are out as a result.
All in all, this seems like a pretty decent metric and a pretty good list too. However, since Larry Allen routinely schooled Reggie White in the 90's, does that make him the best OL ever? Just kidding! Really though, I love it that a DE is first and a WR is second. I think most people would assume that a RB or QB would be number one...just one more reason to like this metric!
(With the site being all wonky, I needed something to do!)
DwightKSchrute
Carry on, nothing to see here.
March 23, 2010 at 12:06PM View BBCode
You're calling Barry Sanders and Jim Brown not major snubs?Carry on, nothing to see here.
tm4559
March 23, 2010 at 03:08PM View BBCode
the word "fail" comes to mind. i don't know why, but it comes to mind.
Tyles
March 23, 2010 at 03:22PM View BBCode
You should rename the thread to "NFL players who hung around long enough to produce lofty totals in this crude career AV metric."
tworoosters
March 23, 2010 at 04:08PM View BBCode
Tyles is just pissed because Jim Zorn, Steve Largent and Cortez Kennedy aren't on the list .
FuriousGiorge
March 23, 2010 at 04:15PM View BBCode
The list sucks. See the spot where Fran Tarkenton is rated just above John Elway? That's the spot on the list into which you slip a little piece of paper which says, "this list is stupid."
Tyles
March 23, 2010 at 04:19PM View formatted
You are viewing the raw post code; this allows you to copy a message with BBCode formatting intact.
Rod Woodson over Johnny Unitas and Brett Favre as the top-rated QB is what got me.
FuriousGiorge
March 23, 2010 at 04:28PM View BBCode
Well, it really kind of starts at the top - can anyone honestly defend the idea that Reggie White is the best player that ever played? And that he, Jerry Rice and Alan Page are far-and-away better than everyone else?
tm4559
March 23, 2010 at 04:28PM View BBCode
a team of 40 reggie whites would totally crush everything in its path. and kill all the firstborn.
Tyles
March 23, 2010 at 04:32PM View BBCode
It really is terrible in every way, which I guess is why I'm so miffed they couldn't screw it up bad enough to find some room for Dave Krieg on there, dicks.
tm4559
March 23, 2010 at 04:33PM View BBCode
i thought this list was where ray guy would finally get some respect.
FuriousGiorge
March 23, 2010 at 04:37PM View BBCode
(It's an okay list, it just doesn't come anywhere close to any of the extravagant claims Ryne Sandberg is making.)
tm4559
March 23, 2010 at 04:41PM View BBCode
think how awesome football would truly be, if they would just take all the players off the field, and leave only a defensive end and a wide receiver. that would truly be the mostest bestest game ever.
cowboymatt43
The rest of it is the list talking. Tarkenton over Elway, that's the list not me. Favre ranked so highly, again, that's the list.
About the first two players, I like that this metric ranks someone other than a QB/RB as the best player. It's serves as a reminder that football is more than just those two positions.
Oh, and the Tarkenton vs. Elway thing: This metric takes into account the average performance by players at each position. My guess, without looking at too many stats, is that the average QB, according to this metric, had much better stats when Elway was playing vs. when Tarkenton was playing. Just using the list as a guide, Elway had to play with four guys on the list (Marino, Favre, Manning, and Young). Tarkenton had only one (Unitas). So against an average QB of his time, Tarkenton would stand out more. (I mean, just thinking off the top of my head, who else played QB in Tarkenton's generation besides Unitas? Starr, Jorgenson, Staubach toward the end, Meredith, Ken Anderson...not the same quality of stats as those produced during Elway's time; so good stats put up in an era that didn't have the gaudy passing numbers of the more recent game equals higher on the list.)
[Edited on 3-23-2010 by cowboymatt43]
March 23, 2010 at 09:26PM View BBCode
What outrageous claims did I make? This list takes longevity into account, which is why Brown and Sanders aren't big snubs. They both left too early, just like Sandy Koufax in baseball.The rest of it is the list talking. Tarkenton over Elway, that's the list not me. Favre ranked so highly, again, that's the list.
About the first two players, I like that this metric ranks someone other than a QB/RB as the best player. It's serves as a reminder that football is more than just those two positions.
Oh, and the Tarkenton vs. Elway thing: This metric takes into account the average performance by players at each position. My guess, without looking at too many stats, is that the average QB, according to this metric, had much better stats when Elway was playing vs. when Tarkenton was playing. Just using the list as a guide, Elway had to play with four guys on the list (Marino, Favre, Manning, and Young). Tarkenton had only one (Unitas). So against an average QB of his time, Tarkenton would stand out more. (I mean, just thinking off the top of my head, who else played QB in Tarkenton's generation besides Unitas? Starr, Jorgenson, Staubach toward the end, Meredith, Ken Anderson...not the same quality of stats as those produced during Elway's time; so good stats put up in an era that didn't have the gaudy passing numbers of the more recent game equals higher on the list.)
[Edited on 3-23-2010 by cowboymatt43]
tworoosters
Any "best of" list is going to run into massive criticism .
The Elway vs. Tarkenton thing is a bit odd, not the ranking but the rancor . I'm guessing much of the Anti Tarkenton stuff stems from his post football career which has pretty much exposed him as a first class prick and also because many of his haters are probably too young to have seen him play.
In actual fact Tarkenton was a tremendous QB who couldn't get his team to win a Super Bowl so personally I have no big issue with him being ranked ahead of Elway .
March 23, 2010 at 09:36PM View BBCode
Don't let them get to you Matt, the list is what it is and its' flaws are explainable .Any "best of" list is going to run into massive criticism .
The Elway vs. Tarkenton thing is a bit odd, not the ranking but the rancor . I'm guessing much of the Anti Tarkenton stuff stems from his post football career which has pretty much exposed him as a first class prick and also because many of his haters are probably too young to have seen him play.
In actual fact Tarkenton was a tremendous QB who couldn't get his team to win a Super Bowl so personally I have no big issue with him being ranked ahead of Elway .
Hamilton2
QB - Brett Favre, he has all kinds of records and awards and has played in multiple eras successfully. He is also the only QB in NFL history that I can imagine playing in any football time period. (Joe Montana in a leather helmet? lol).
RB - Barry Sanders, just look at his average yards per season and compare his O-line to the O-line that Emmitt Smith had.
WR - Jerry Rice, not really seeing how it is possible for anyone to argue with this.
TE - Tony Gonzales, because TE's can catch the ball too you know.
O-line - Anthony Munoz as an individual, Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's as a unit
D-line - I'll take Minnesota's Purple People Eaters as a unit, but Reggie White as an individual
LB - Lawrence Taylor, he pretty much defined what it means to be a linebacker.
DB - Rod Woodson, was versatile and effective for a very long time.
March 23, 2010 at 10:19PM View BBCode
I have a hard time thinking that you can compare NFL players to guys at different positions. Position by position, I think that this list does a solid job. My top guys would be:QB - Brett Favre, he has all kinds of records and awards and has played in multiple eras successfully. He is also the only QB in NFL history that I can imagine playing in any football time period. (Joe Montana in a leather helmet? lol).
RB - Barry Sanders, just look at his average yards per season and compare his O-line to the O-line that Emmitt Smith had.
WR - Jerry Rice, not really seeing how it is possible for anyone to argue with this.
TE - Tony Gonzales, because TE's can catch the ball too you know.
O-line - Anthony Munoz as an individual, Dallas Cowboys of the early 90's as a unit
D-line - I'll take Minnesota's Purple People Eaters as a unit, but Reggie White as an individual
LB - Lawrence Taylor, he pretty much defined what it means to be a linebacker.
DB - Rod Woodson, was versatile and effective for a very long time.
cowboymatt43
So is it really that Faulk had fewer fumbles? Fumbles are important, don't get me wrong, but the fact that he had 36 and Smith had 61 really means that Faulk was better, despite scoring many fewer TDs and gaining much less yardage from scrimmage.
So after looking again, Faulk being the top back is a bit odd.
As far as Sanders is concerned: if he had played two or three more years at around 10% below his career averages he would be higher on the list. As it stands, he's 32nd, which, obviously, is quite good. He only played until he was 30, that's the problem. But the ten years he played compare well with any other ten-year span by any other back.
March 23, 2010 at 11:39PM View BBCode
The first RB on the list is Faulk, which was a bit surprising seeing that Emmitt Smith and Walter Payton both had more yards from scrimmage. Smith and Payton also had more yards rushing and more rushing TDs. Payton had a higher rusing average and Smith's was only one tenth of a yard shorter than Fauk's. Faulk, of course, had more receiving yards and receiving TDs. Faulk had more total TDs than Payton but quite a bit fewer than Smith. Faulk also had quite fewer fumbles than either Payton or Smith (and by quite a margin).So is it really that Faulk had fewer fumbles? Fumbles are important, don't get me wrong, but the fact that he had 36 and Smith had 61 really means that Faulk was better, despite scoring many fewer TDs and gaining much less yardage from scrimmage.
So after looking again, Faulk being the top back is a bit odd.
As far as Sanders is concerned: if he had played two or three more years at around 10% below his career averages he would be higher on the list. As it stands, he's 32nd, which, obviously, is quite good. He only played until he was 30, that's the problem. But the ten years he played compare well with any other ten-year span by any other back.
tm4559
March 24, 2010 at 01:00PM View BBCode
barry sanders was nice and all. but Jim Brown was the best.
barterer2002
Here's my top 5 per position which is more fun as you can nitpick it even more. Trying to weigh career and peak of course so Sayers gets knocked off etc.
QB
Montana
Unitas
Manning
Elway
Baugh
RB
Brown
Payton
Sanders
Simpson
Van Burean
WR
Rice
Hutson
Alworth
Berry
Loften
TE
Gonzalez
Ditka
Winslow
Newsome
Sharpe
G
Grimm
Mathews
Munchak
Hannah
Upshaw
T
Munoz
Slater
Dierdorff
Shell
Zimmerman
C
Webster
Stephenson
Otto
Gatski
Langer
P
Guy
Landeta
Jennings
Roby
Maguire
K
Stenerud
G. Anderson
Blanda
Moseley
Lowery
LB
Taylor
Butkus
Singletary
Nitschke
Carson
CB
Woodson
Lane
Walls
Allen
Green
S
Lott
Houston
Tatum
Krause
Shell
DE
White
Jones
Smith
Long
Haley
DT
Greene
Donovan
Page
Randall
Lilly
March 24, 2010 at 02:11PM View BBCode
Yeah come on, any list that doesn't have Brown as the top RB is a bit flawed.Here's my top 5 per position which is more fun as you can nitpick it even more. Trying to weigh career and peak of course so Sayers gets knocked off etc.
QB
Montana
Unitas
Manning
Elway
Baugh
RB
Brown
Payton
Sanders
Simpson
Van Burean
WR
Rice
Hutson
Alworth
Berry
Loften
TE
Gonzalez
Ditka
Winslow
Newsome
Sharpe
G
Grimm
Mathews
Munchak
Hannah
Upshaw
T
Munoz
Slater
Dierdorff
Shell
Zimmerman
C
Webster
Stephenson
Otto
Gatski
Langer
P
Guy
Landeta
Jennings
Roby
Maguire
K
Stenerud
G. Anderson
Blanda
Moseley
Lowery
LB
Taylor
Butkus
Singletary
Nitschke
Carson
CB
Woodson
Lane
Walls
Allen
Green
S
Lott
Houston
Tatum
Krause
Shell
DE
White
Jones
Smith
Long
Haley
DT
Greene
Donovan
Page
Randall
Lilly
tm4559
March 24, 2010 at 03:19PM View BBCode
man, stenerud. what a blast from the past that is. he could kick a ton.
barterer2002
March 24, 2010 at 05:10PM View BBCode
Yes because I watched Jim Thorpe run and almost added he and Nagurski to the list.
tm4559
March 24, 2010 at 05:40PM View BBCode
it is a nice list. i would include earl campbell with the running backs, but it is a small point.