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thatrogue
January 12, 2010 at 07:12PM View BBCode
My point was that Junior was the example of a guy giving his home town team a discount and Pujols of giving his current (non-home town) team a discount. I've seen writers/heard reporters use the term interchangeably.
dirtdevil
January 12, 2010 at 07:13PM View BBCode
jason bay didn't really fit in seattle. as an overpaid player on the down side of his career, he definitely fits with the mets. so it's a win-win, really.
Jon
January 12, 2010 at 08:45PM View BBCode
The M's weren't all that interested in Jason Bay in the first place. Because the M's are now smart enough to realize that giving Jason Bay $16 million a year is a really bad idea. Thankfully Omar Minaya is still a dumb.
thatrogue
They needed another bat for the offense, and did not want to get into a bidding war for Holliday. They still need pitching, and Piniero could be a decent option, assuming they get him for the two years, $15 million some have projected. If so, the rotation, fronted by Santana should be decent enough to contend, the bullpen is reasonable, and a lineup core of Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Bay, & Francouer would make them more than competitive with the rest of the NL East.
January 12, 2010 at 09:14PM View BBCode
So I ask, what should the Mets have done?They needed another bat for the offense, and did not want to get into a bidding war for Holliday. They still need pitching, and Piniero could be a decent option, assuming they get him for the two years, $15 million some have projected. If so, the rotation, fronted by Santana should be decent enough to contend, the bullpen is reasonable, and a lineup core of Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Bay, & Francouer would make them more than competitive with the rest of the NL East.
bpearly69
and isnt Bay only 31? 32? that's not downside?
January 12, 2010 at 09:19PM View BBCode
No one will get paid per year more then A-rod unless it's Pujolsand isnt Bay only 31? 32? that's not downside?
tworoosters
January 12, 2010 at 09:23PM View BBCode
If the Mets are such idiots for giving Jason Bay $66 million over four years how dumb are the Cardinals for giving Holliday $120 million over seven years when they were essentially bidding against themselves ?
barterer2002
Same song, different year
January 12, 2010 at 09:30PM View BBCode
Originally posted by thatrogue
If so, the rotation, fronted by Santana should be decent enough to contend, the bullpen is reasonable, and a lineup core of Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Bay, & Francouer would make them more than competitive with the rest of the NL East.
Same song, different year
tm4559
(it is not cosmic payback for 1969. it is cosmic payback for 1986, with that steroid freak dickstra.)
January 12, 2010 at 09:46PM View BBCode
god. it is just too easy.(it is not cosmic payback for 1969. it is cosmic payback for 1986, with that steroid freak dickstra.)
Faceman
There is talk of one for his next (and last) contract.
January 12, 2010 at 11:16PM View BBCode
Pujols was not a hometown discount in '04. It was a arb years buyout. He specifically said at that point he wanted market value, that there would be "no hometown discount".There is talk of one for his next (and last) contract.
tm4559
(they proabably stretch it out to infinity, like catfish hunter's contract was. albert be showing up for spring training forever. and why not?)
January 12, 2010 at 11:25PM View BBCode
i believe albert's contract will be the biggest in baseball, but something less than he could conceivably get somewhere else, yes.(they proabably stretch it out to infinity, like catfish hunter's contract was. albert be showing up for spring training forever. and why not?)
shep1582
Biggio, Bagwell and Berkman have all done the same in Houston.
Now, Drayton will sell the team for 6-7 hundred million. Why anyone sides with the owners in any of these contract/union squabbles amazes me.
January 13, 2010 at 12:46AM View BBCode
to his credit, Brady gave the Pats that discount.Biggio, Bagwell and Berkman have all done the same in Houston.
Now, Drayton will sell the team for 6-7 hundred million. Why anyone sides with the owners in any of these contract/union squabbles amazes me.
FuriousGiorge
What the hell?
January 13, 2010 at 12:53AM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
Why anyone sides with the owners in any of these contract/union squabbles amazes me.
What the hell?
barterer2002
January 13, 2010 at 01:00AM View BBCode
Brady isn't relevant. Football has a salary cap and so its incumbent upon a player like Brady not to hold out for every last dollar so that other players around him can also be of quality. If Brady wanted to stretch the market as far as he could the Pats would be unable to sign others because of the finite amount the NFL teams are allowed to spend.
bpearly69
January 13, 2010 at 01:27AM View BBCode
i mean youd think, he wouldnt leave 50 million on the table, but who knows, think about it.. a couple million dollars for anyone is more then enough to live on, some are just very greedy
FuriousGiorge
There is a finite amount that a major league baseball team can spend too.
January 13, 2010 at 02:19AM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
Brady isn't relevant. Football has a salary cap and so its incumbent upon a player like Brady not to hold out for every last dollar so that other players around him can also be of quality. If Brady wanted to stretch the market as far as he could the Pats would be unable to sign others because of the finite amount the NFL teams are allowed to spend.
There is a finite amount that a major league baseball team can spend too.
thatrogue
(Of course, this point is moot since Pujols attended high school and community college in Missouri...thus he was a bad example to use.)
January 13, 2010 at 10:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FacemanIf that is the case, then Albert has the longest arb period in history. As a player that came up in 2001, his arb seasons would have been 2004 - 2006...yet his current contract extends through 2011 (assuming the Cards would exercise the option if they can't get another extension signed by then), at an AAV somewhere around $14.5 million. Considering what Jeter, A-Rod and Bonds were making per year in 2004, and Albert's stats to that point, he did not sign for "market value".
Pujols was not a hometown discount in '04. It was a arb years buyout. He specifically said at that point he wanted market value, that there would be "no hometown discount".
There is talk of one for his next (and last) contract.
(Of course, this point is moot since Pujols attended high school and community college in Missouri...thus he was a bad example to use.)
thatrogue
Note that I'm not picking the Mets to win it all...I just think that with reasonable health, this iteration of the team is improved from the 2006-2008 version.
January 13, 2010 at 01:29PM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002Well Bryan, they were competitive in 2006, 2007 and 2008. Riddled with injuries, they were not competitve in 2009.
Originally posted by thatrogue
If so, the rotation, fronted by Santana should be decent enough to contend, the bullpen is reasonable, and a lineup core of Reyes, Castillo, Wright, Beltran, Bay, & Francouer would make them more than competitive with the rest of the NL East.
Same song, different year
Note that I'm not picking the Mets to win it all...I just think that with reasonable health, this iteration of the team is improved from the 2006-2008 version.
thatrogue
The Mets have struggled to field a reliable starting pitching staff for most of this decade. It had been the offense, via the Reyes-Wright-Beltran-Delgado core that led them to be competitive from 2006 - 2008.
January 13, 2010 at 02:55PM View BBCode
The 2006 rotation was Glavine, Traschel, Pedro (pre-injury), El Duque & Maine. 2007 saw Maine increase his starts, while Pedro and Traschel were replaced by Ollie Perez & Mike Pelfrey. 2008 was Santana's first season in NY (replacing Glavine), with Pedro coming back from injury (before getting injured again) to replace El Duque.The Mets have struggled to field a reliable starting pitching staff for most of this decade. It had been the offense, via the Reyes-Wright-Beltran-Delgado core that led them to be competitive from 2006 - 2008.
barterer2002
C-Not sure who's starting there in '10 (Blanco?) whoever it is is a step down from Lo Duca
1B-Without Delgado in the second half of '08 the Mets wouldn't have even been close. Over those three years he hit 38, 24 and 38 HRs anchoring the middle of the order. He's not yet been replaced. No, Daniel Murphy isn't it
2B-Luis Castilla who's primary talent is speed. He's really a league average second basemen (all pop up jokes aside) who isn't special in any way
SS-Reyes-CLearly a star when healthy, his return helps
3B-Wright-was always a better hitter at Shea than on the road. The ballpark move hurt him but there is clearly more to it as he slumped worse than you'd expect last year. May not be a 30+ home run hitter but should be better
LF-has kind of been a platoon posiiton for the Mets although with some success as the lead guy (Sheffield/Tatis/Alou) all posted solid part time stats. Bay will be an upgrade but not nearly as much as you think offensively
CF Beltran is the third star in the offense of the Mets
RF Francoeur is a slap hitter who can't walk to save his life and boasts a career on base average of .311. He can get hot and hit well for 100 at bats or so but as a regular he's exposed as not much.
Santana is clearly a top pitcher
Pelfry/Maine/Perez. I'll take my chances with my team hitting against that bunch any day
The Mets have 4 stud players (Reyes, Wright, Beltran and Santana) and not much else on the roster. I'm doubtful that they're any pretense of a contender at this point
January 13, 2010 at 03:02PM View BBCode
Well lets look at it then RogueC-Not sure who's starting there in '10 (Blanco?) whoever it is is a step down from Lo Duca
1B-Without Delgado in the second half of '08 the Mets wouldn't have even been close. Over those three years he hit 38, 24 and 38 HRs anchoring the middle of the order. He's not yet been replaced. No, Daniel Murphy isn't it
2B-Luis Castilla who's primary talent is speed. He's really a league average second basemen (all pop up jokes aside) who isn't special in any way
SS-Reyes-CLearly a star when healthy, his return helps
3B-Wright-was always a better hitter at Shea than on the road. The ballpark move hurt him but there is clearly more to it as he slumped worse than you'd expect last year. May not be a 30+ home run hitter but should be better
LF-has kind of been a platoon posiiton for the Mets although with some success as the lead guy (Sheffield/Tatis/Alou) all posted solid part time stats. Bay will be an upgrade but not nearly as much as you think offensively
CF Beltran is the third star in the offense of the Mets
RF Francoeur is a slap hitter who can't walk to save his life and boasts a career on base average of .311. He can get hot and hit well for 100 at bats or so but as a regular he's exposed as not much.
Santana is clearly a top pitcher
Pelfry/Maine/Perez. I'll take my chances with my team hitting against that bunch any day
The Mets have 4 stud players (Reyes, Wright, Beltran and Santana) and not much else on the roster. I'm doubtful that they're any pretense of a contender at this point
thatrogue
1B - is still a hole, agreed.
2B - In this lineup, the team needs Castillo to be league average.
SS, 3B, LF, & CF have four players who are all above league average, offensively. That is the core.
RF - Francouer is a body but not a solution. Admittedly, this is still a weakness.
SP - Piniero is the Mets targeted player. A decent groundball pitcher that eats innings would slot in as a decent #3 starter and make the pitching staff serviceable.
BP - K-Rod as the closer is a reasonable start.
This is the framework for a contending team. Four above average offensive players, two league average offensive players, a stud #1 starter, a stud closer. With this core, they are better positioned than half of the NL...but, like most teams right now, they still need to finish fleshing out the team.
January 13, 2010 at 03:44PM View BBCode
C - LoDuca was a turd...horribly overrated both offensively and defensively. Assuming they get Molina (far from a foregone conclusion, but that appears to be the Mets plan), I'd suggest he is a slight upgrade from their catching situation the past several seasons.1B - is still a hole, agreed.
2B - In this lineup, the team needs Castillo to be league average.
SS, 3B, LF, & CF have four players who are all above league average, offensively. That is the core.
RF - Francouer is a body but not a solution. Admittedly, this is still a weakness.
SP - Piniero is the Mets targeted player. A decent groundball pitcher that eats innings would slot in as a decent #3 starter and make the pitching staff serviceable.
BP - K-Rod as the closer is a reasonable start.
This is the framework for a contending team. Four above average offensive players, two league average offensive players, a stud #1 starter, a stud closer. With this core, they are better positioned than half of the NL...but, like most teams right now, they still need to finish fleshing out the team.
thatrogue
January 14, 2010 at 04:27AM View BBCode
But of course, injuries and team disfunction could render my point moot, and crush any optimism a fan could want to have...
Faceman
Isn't the point of buying out arb years to lock up a player for longer? I mean, the Cards could have been giving Albert the minimum for a number of years, then just keep going to arbitration, then let him walk.
The point of doing what they did (if I understand it correctly) is a compromise between the minimums and his market worth. The team gives the player more money than they have to, but lock him up. Each side wins.
Obviously he wasn't uuder arb through 2011.
January 14, 2010 at 03:25PM View BBCode
Originally posted by thatrogue
Originally posted by FacemanIf that is the case, then Albert has the longest arb period in history. As a player that came up in 2001, his arb seasons would have been 2004 - 2006...yet his current contract extends through 2011 (assuming the Cards would exercise the option if they can't get another extension signed by then), at an AAV somewhere around $14.5 million. Considering what Jeter, A-Rod and Bonds were making per year in 2004, and Albert's stats to that point, he did not sign for "market value".
Pujols was not a hometown discount in '04. It was a arb years buyout. He specifically said at that point he wanted market value, that there would be "no hometown discount".
There is talk of one for his next (and last) contract.
(Of course, this point is moot since Pujols attended high school and community college in Missouri...thus he was a bad example to use.)
Isn't the point of buying out arb years to lock up a player for longer? I mean, the Cards could have been giving Albert the minimum for a number of years, then just keep going to arbitration, then let him walk.
The point of doing what they did (if I understand it correctly) is a compromise between the minimums and his market worth. The team gives the player more money than they have to, but lock him up. Each side wins.
Obviously he wasn't uuder arb through 2011.
Faceman
C - LoDuca was a turd...horribly overrated both offensively and defensively. Assuming they get Molina (far from a foregone conclusion, but that appears to be the Mets plan), I'd suggest he is a slight upgrade from their catching situation the past several seasons.
1B - is still a hole, agreed.
2B - In this lineup, the team needs Castillo to be league average.
SS, 3B, LF, & CF have four players who are all above league average, offensively. That is the core.
RF - Francouer is a body but not a solution. Admittedly, this is still a weakness.
SP - Piniero is the Mets targeted player. A decent groundball pitcher that eats innings would slot in as a decent #3 starter and make the pitching staff serviceable.
BP - K-Rod as the closer is a reasonable start.
This is the framework for a contending team. Four above average offensive players, two league average offensive players, a stud #1 starter, a stud closer. With this core, they are better positioned than half of the NL...but, like most teams right now, they still need to finish fleshing out the team. [/quote]
When I google Molina and Beltran, I get this.
[img]http://nymag.com/daily/intel/20061020beltran.jpg[/img]
January 14, 2010 at 03:29PM View formatted
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[quote][i]Originally posted by thatrogue[/i]
C - LoDuca was a turd...horribly overrated both offensively and defensively. Assuming they get Molina (far from a foregone conclusion, but that appears to be the Mets plan), I'd suggest he is a slight upgrade from their catching situation the past several seasons.
1B - is still a hole, agreed.
2B - In this lineup, the team needs Castillo to be league average.
SS, 3B, LF, & CF have four players who are all above league average, offensively. That is the core.
RF - Francouer is a body but not a solution. Admittedly, this is still a weakness.
SP - Piniero is the Mets targeted player. A decent groundball pitcher that eats innings would slot in as a decent #3 starter and make the pitching staff serviceable.
BP - K-Rod as the closer is a reasonable start.
This is the framework for a contending team. Four above average offensive players, two league average offensive players, a stud #1 starter, a stud closer. With this core, they are better positioned than half of the NL...but, like most teams right now, they still need to finish fleshing out the team. [/quote]
When I google Molina and Beltran, I get this.
[img]http://nymag.com/daily/intel/20061020beltran.jpg[/img]