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Old Forum Index » Other Stuff » Sports Talk » Palmeiro suspended
whiskybear
August 02, 2005 at 11:30PM View BBCode
But to be serious for a minute, when did you turn into the Antichrist?
Benne
Sigh......*tsk tsk* Scammy, you used to be cool.
August 03, 2005 at 12:34AM View BBCode
Ty Cobb makes Babe Ruth look like Rey Ordenez
Sigh......*tsk tsk* Scammy, you used to be cool.
FuriousGiorge
August 03, 2005 at 04:38AM View BBCode
Yeah and Palmeiro was [url=http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113]full of shit about getting it from some over the counter supplement[/url]. This guy was probably my favorite player during the brief run of success the O's enjoyed from 96-97. He had it all - the sweet swing, the cool demeanor, the killer mustache. I wanted to believe his denial, I really did. But he's got Ben Johnson crap coursing through his veins. Screw that guy. Maybe he doesn't belong in the Hall.
Unclescam777
August 03, 2005 at 06:01AM View BBCode
We'll just have to disagree then. I still think Babe Ruth was the Barry Bonds of his time, a one dimentional player. He's by no means a bad player (probably in the top 10 all time), I just think he gets too much credit thus I feel the need to shoot him down in order to level the playing field. I know he's not as bad as I say he is, but he's still very overrated and in my mind no where near as good of an all around player as Cobb.
ME
August 03, 2005 at 07:14AM View BBCode
One-dimesional players whose one dimension is hitting are usually very good (see Ted Williams or Manny Ramirez), while one-dimensional players whose dimension is speed or defense are worthless.
DougB
August 03, 2005 at 01:44PM View BBCode
Oh no now Barry Bonds is one dimensional? What 8 or 9 (or is it 10... who knows) gold gloves and 600 stolen bases is not enough? Yikes. I'm getting out of the way of this silly argument.
whiskybear
August 03, 2005 at 02:34PM View BBCode
Barry Bonds' defense has been an adventure since he bulked up into the Michelin Man, and the overwhelming majority of those steals came in the first decade of his career.
max_fischer
"Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113
August 03, 2005 at 06:05PM View BBCode
As for Palmeiro, it's increasingly even harder to believe that he "accidentally" took steroids:"Palmeiro's positive steroid test was for stanozolol, a powerful anabolic steroid that is not available in dietary supplements, according to a newspaper report."
http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/news/story?id=2123113
drunkengoat
I doubt either Cobb or Barry Bonds could've won 20 games a season before TURNING 20 and then go on to become the greatest hitter of his era. I don't want to hear any arguments about Rogers fucking Hornsby either.
I'm sorry, but anyone who showed that he had the capability of doing either winning 400 games or hitting 400 homeruns at his whim is far and away the greatest player of all time in my mind.
August 03, 2005 at 07:27PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
We'll just have to disagree then. I still think Babe Ruth was the Barry Bonds of his time, a one dimentional player. He's by no means a bad player (probably in the top 10 all time), I just think he gets too much credit thus I feel the need to shoot him down in order to level the playing field. I know he's not as bad as I say he is, but he's still very overrated and in my mind no where near as good of an all around player as Cobb.
I doubt either Cobb or Barry Bonds could've won 20 games a season before TURNING 20 and then go on to become the greatest hitter of his era. I don't want to hear any arguments about Rogers fucking Hornsby either.
I'm sorry, but anyone who showed that he had the capability of doing either winning 400 games or hitting 400 homeruns at his whim is far and away the greatest player of all time in my mind.
Unclescam777
August 03, 2005 at 07:46PM View BBCode
Back on topic, does anybody know if there's 100% proof that Raffy took roids or was it just a positive urine test? I've said what I think if he's guilty but I must point out that he should be innocent until proven guilty. Urine tests aren't fool proof, baseball should add on to their drug testing policy. The random urine tests are fine but in the event that a player fail one he should have to take a blood test in order to ensure that the urine test is correct.
bobcat73
He failed the only drug test his union allows him to take. He has been taking the stuff for about 13 years if not longer. He is the only player in the 500HR club to play a season with over 500 ab's and hit less then 10 HRs in that season, he did that twice. After that he hit 30 home runs a year for over 9 straight years. Give me a break, look at the draft from that year and the only guys still playing and being major producers at the plate are guys who seem to be cheating.
Here is something from his Bio regarding the 1985 draft Palmeiro was part of what many scouts consider the best draft ever in June 1985...Among the first round picks that year, in addition to Palmeiro (22nd pick overall by the Cubs), were current teammate B.J. Surhoff (1st, Brewers), college teammate Will Clark (2nd, Giants), Bobby Witt (3rd, Rangers), Barry Larkin (4th, Reds), Barry Bonds (6th, Pirates), Pete Incaviglia (8th, Expos), Chris Gwynn (10th, Dodgers), Walt Weiss (11th, A's), Tommy Greene (14th, Braves), Brian McRae (17th, Royals), Joe Magrane (18th, Cardinals), Gregg Jefferies (20th, Mets) and Joey Cora (24th, Padres)...Other notable picks that year included Randy Johnson (Expos, 2nd round), David Justice (Braves, 4th round), Bobby Thigpen (White Sox, 4th round), Mike Devereaux (Dodgers, 5th round), Jeff Brantley (Giants, 6th round), Deion Sanders (Royals, 6th round), Brady Anderson (Red Sox, 10th round), Bo Jackson (Angels, 20th round), Lenny Webster (Twins, 21st round), John Smoltz (Tigers, 22nd round) and Mark Grace (Cubs, 24th round)....Palmeiro, Clark, Thigpen and Brantley played together at Mississippi State University.
August 04, 2005 at 01:28AM View BBCode
Originally posted by Unclescam777
Back on topic, does anybody know if there's 100% proof that Raffy took roids or was it just a positive urine test? I've said what I think if he's guilty but I must point out that he should be innocent until proven guilty. Urine tests aren't fool proof, baseball should add on to their drug testing policy. The random urine tests are fine but in the event that a player fail one he should have to take a blood test in order to ensure that the urine test is correct.
He failed the only drug test his union allows him to take. He has been taking the stuff for about 13 years if not longer. He is the only player in the 500HR club to play a season with over 500 ab's and hit less then 10 HRs in that season, he did that twice. After that he hit 30 home runs a year for over 9 straight years. Give me a break, look at the draft from that year and the only guys still playing and being major producers at the plate are guys who seem to be cheating.
Here is something from his Bio regarding the 1985 draft Palmeiro was part of what many scouts consider the best draft ever in June 1985...Among the first round picks that year, in addition to Palmeiro (22nd pick overall by the Cubs), were current teammate B.J. Surhoff (1st, Brewers), college teammate Will Clark (2nd, Giants), Bobby Witt (3rd, Rangers), Barry Larkin (4th, Reds), Barry Bonds (6th, Pirates), Pete Incaviglia (8th, Expos), Chris Gwynn (10th, Dodgers), Walt Weiss (11th, A's), Tommy Greene (14th, Braves), Brian McRae (17th, Royals), Joe Magrane (18th, Cardinals), Gregg Jefferies (20th, Mets) and Joey Cora (24th, Padres)...Other notable picks that year included Randy Johnson (Expos, 2nd round), David Justice (Braves, 4th round), Bobby Thigpen (White Sox, 4th round), Mike Devereaux (Dodgers, 5th round), Jeff Brantley (Giants, 6th round), Deion Sanders (Royals, 6th round), Brady Anderson (Red Sox, 10th round), Bo Jackson (Angels, 20th round), Lenny Webster (Twins, 21st round), John Smoltz (Tigers, 22nd round) and Mark Grace (Cubs, 24th round)....Palmeiro, Clark, Thigpen and Brantley played together at Mississippi State University.
Duff77
Again--Raffy deserves his day in the court of public opinion, but it's not looking too good.
August 04, 2005 at 04:29AM View BBCode
I fully believe in innocent until proven guilty, but these reports out today are not good. It sounds like Raffy's been using for a long time. It's not proof, but one of the guys I always liked is most likely a juiced up liar. Which really puts things in perspective: Raffy was never a huge, huge guy with massive power. He didn't scream roids at you. So that really hammers home what I've been saying for a long time: Anybody could've been using. Every stat from the last 20 years is suspect. Every player you ever liked is possibly a fraud and a liar. I can't stop wondering about B.J. Surhoff--back during those few years when he had much better power than he generally has in his career. It just sucks.Again--Raffy deserves his day in the court of public opinion, but it's not looking too good.
Unclescam777
The chances of him being innocent are pretty slim, but it's still a chance. Every human being, especially in our free society, deserves the chance to prove their innocence. Now if he were to fail a blood test or flat out refused to take one then we'd know for sure. But as it stands now we are only 99% sure.
August 04, 2005 at 03:27PM View BBCode
Bobcat, if he's guilty you know I'll join the mob in bringing him down. I despise steroids and think players should get a lifetime ban for using them. But I was just stating that urine tests aren't completely accurate. Baseball should continue with just a random urine test around the board but if it comes up positive they should do further more accurate testing.The chances of him being innocent are pretty slim, but it's still a chance. Every human being, especially in our free society, deserves the chance to prove their innocence. Now if he were to fail a blood test or flat out refused to take one then we'd know for sure. But as it stands now we are only 99% sure.
bobcat73
[Edited on 8-4-2005 by bobcat73]
August 04, 2005 at 10:39PM View BBCode
Uncle I understand what you are saying but from a legal point of view he has been found guilty. He is refusing to take another test. His bargained for rights say the urine test is the only test he will take. He has not come out and asked for another test because he knows that he has been found guilty and no second test or blood test of any kind can change the fact that he did have "his day and court (all testing failures are appealed)" and he is now sitting out his 10 games for cheating.[Edited on 8-4-2005 by bobcat73]
DougB
August 04, 2005 at 10:51PM View BBCode
yeah maybe he is innocent. and maybe Sammy Sosa had never before used a corked bat. and maybe Barry Bonds had no idea the cream was a steroid. and maybe Gary Sheffield was equally blissfully ignorant. and maybe Mark McGwire really only did only do andro. and maybe that 19 year old supermodel really did wink at me because she was madly in love with my overweight balding self. and maybe...
Duff77
August 05, 2005 at 03:11AM View BBCode
Yeah, yeah, he's guilty--we all know it. But Unc is right that it's important for all of us to maintain at least a minimally open mind until all the facts are in, because damnit, we live in America.
whiskybear
August 05, 2005 at 03:12AM View BBCode
And America has always been SO open-minded...about EVERYTHING.
Unclescam777
But if what you say is true that he refuses to take another test then in my mind he gave up that slim chance of being not guilty and deserves to be punished accordingly.
Still we should keep an open mind because this is America...but we all know the difference between what America stands for and what the reality really is. He was guilty from day 1 in the majority's mind so I guess we'll just have to deal with it. Since I believe he's guilty anyway it really doesn't bother me, but in the event that an innocent player be wrongfully accused because we like to jump the gun then it will be a sad day indeed.
August 05, 2005 at 03:34AM View BBCode
Well I too believe he is guilty, along with Bonds, Big Mac, etc. But personal opinions shouldn't be the end all conclusion, we don't live in the Middle Ages.But if what you say is true that he refuses to take another test then in my mind he gave up that slim chance of being not guilty and deserves to be punished accordingly.
Still we should keep an open mind because this is America...but we all know the difference between what America stands for and what the reality really is. He was guilty from day 1 in the majority's mind so I guess we'll just have to deal with it. Since I believe he's guilty anyway it really doesn't bother me, but in the event that an innocent player be wrongfully accused because we like to jump the gun then it will be a sad day indeed.
Duff77
August 05, 2005 at 03:47AM View BBCode
Public opinion is what it is, and it doesn't matter as long as the people of authority aren't swayed by it. In criminal cases, it doesn't matter if 99% of people think a guy is guilty--what matters is that 100% of the 12 jurors don't make up their mind until they've heard the whole case. And in this instance, it would be nice if baseball was SLIGHTLY more transparrent about its methods--although it does seem Palmerio got his words in edgewise.