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ME
I didn't mean to imply that they are, but a players on-field contributions - offense (as best measured through advanced, adjusted metrics), defense, and base running are far and above the things that make a players case.
Players can get in for other, intangible things, like Ichiro being the first great Japanese player, but if he does for this reason, there's no need to pretend he was a great player.
Things like RBIs, or being a supposed "feared hitter" (the nonsense about Jim Rice), don't count for anything.
July 30, 2008 at 01:16AM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
Originally posted by ME
That's misleading. OPS is a meaningful stat which provides a quick means of determining a player's offensive value (outside of position). There are more advanced offensive metrics like adjusted EQA or OPS+ that are better.
They are not the be-all end-all of a player's Hall of Fame resume.
I didn't mean to imply that they are, but a players on-field contributions - offense (as best measured through advanced, adjusted metrics), defense, and base running are far and above the things that make a players case.
Players can get in for other, intangible things, like Ichiro being the first great Japanese player, but if he does for this reason, there's no need to pretend he was a great player.
Things like RBIs, or being a supposed "feared hitter" (the nonsense about Jim Rice), don't count for anything.
dirtdevil
(can we use silly in this thread?)
July 30, 2008 at 03:25AM View formatted
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are there still people beating the drum for jim rice? i'm not a big ichiro fan, by any means, but anyone who maintains that he isn't a great player is being rather silly.
(can we use silly in this thread?)
Benne
[url=http://ussmariner.com/2008/07/29/5638/]Read this.[/url] [url=http://ussmariner.com/2008/07/18/all-time-all-mariner-roster-right-field/]And this.[/url]
July 30, 2008 at 06:24AM View BBCode
There's no need to "pretend" that Ichiro is a great player. He is a great player, period. This is really not up for debate.[url=http://ussmariner.com/2008/07/29/5638/]Read this.[/url] [url=http://ussmariner.com/2008/07/18/all-time-all-mariner-roster-right-field/]And this.[/url]
happy
The articles are right, runs and run prevention is what matters, it doesnt matter how you do it. This is their argument against people saying that Ichiro needs power numbers, but I also think its an argument against Ichiro having HOF credentials. He is stylish and fun to watch and unique, but the fact is that his runs and run prevention isnt enough for the hall of fame.
And Whisky, I assumed that its different for him since he came from the Japanese league (Satchel Paige, 6 years for example)
July 30, 2008 at 06:47AM View BBCode
he is a great player, but... probably not even top 5 at his position (corner outfield), and was never #1 at his position. Thats bad for someone who has a short career. sure, maybe he plays another 6 or 7 years until he is 40 or 41, but he had no peak, and it is yet to see if he has a long successful above average career. I mean, this is a contact hitter who has had one total season of OBP over .400 that we are talking about...The articles are right, runs and run prevention is what matters, it doesnt matter how you do it. This is their argument against people saying that Ichiro needs power numbers, but I also think its an argument against Ichiro having HOF credentials. He is stylish and fun to watch and unique, but the fact is that his runs and run prevention isnt enough for the hall of fame.
And Whisky, I assumed that its different for him since he came from the Japanese league (Satchel Paige, 6 years for example)
barterer2002
July 30, 2008 at 11:34AM View BBCode
Satchel Paige was inducted based on his Negro League career not based on anything he did in MLB. Paige, by all accounts, was the greatest pitcher in the history of the Negro Leagues. A Walter Johnson type dominater with Dizzy Dean's flair. What he accomplished in the majors is not and was not relevant to his Hall of Fame discussion.
khazim
The way my grandfather told the story, Paige made a big deal about striking him out on three pitches the next three times he came up to bat. It was probably his fondest memory surrounding baseball.
July 30, 2008 at 12:44PM View BBCode
I know. My grandfather talked for years how he faced Satchel Paige in an exhibition game and got a hit off of him. He said that Paige, then in his late 50's/early 60s, walked over to my grandfather and said, "Boy, you ain't gonna do that again."The way my grandfather told the story, Paige made a big deal about striking him out on three pitches the next three times he came up to bat. It was probably his fondest memory surrounding baseball.
Admin
I guess I'm not all that interested in arguing whether he should get in the hall of fame, but rather will he. And I think based on historical evidence on the types of players that get voted in, he will get in. Voters also, particularly the veterans committee, really seem to favor singles hitters over the years. So that won't hurt Ichiro either.
Tyson
July 30, 2008 at 01:24PM View BBCode
and was never #1 at his position.He was the MVP in 2001. So the sports writers thought he was #1 in the league. He finished 7th and 8th in MVP voting in 2 other years.
I guess I'm not all that interested in arguing whether he should get in the hall of fame, but rather will he. And I think based on historical evidence on the types of players that get voted in, he will get in. Voters also, particularly the veterans committee, really seem to favor singles hitters over the years. So that won't hurt Ichiro either.
Tyson
happy
Paige-- did not play in the majors for 10 years. (because he was dominating another league) I guess the major difference is that Ichiro theoretically COULD have played in the majors earlier, and it was more a culture of players not coming here that kept him from coming earlier than a specific banning of his race.
July 30, 2008 at 01:24PM View BBCode
I know this. My only point:Paige-- did not play in the majors for 10 years. (because he was dominating another league) I guess the major difference is that Ichiro theoretically COULD have played in the majors earlier, and it was more a culture of players not coming here that kept him from coming earlier than a specific banning of his race.
whiskybear
July 30, 2008 at 02:35PM View BBCode
You guess that's the major difference? Go sit in a corner.
khazim
July 30, 2008 at 03:06PM View BBCode
If Ichiro plays for 6 more seasons without a drop-of fin performance more than around 10%, he'll hit 3k hits.
FuriousGiorge
July 30, 2008 at 03:24PM View BBCode
He's 34. He's already dropped off this year. 3000 hits is probably out of his range.
whiskybear
I kind of expect Ichiro to retire after his contract is up in 2012. He'll be 38, and he should have around 2,500 hits. That will be more than enough (not that hits are the only -- or even the best -- barometer, but whatever, Cowbell insists), given the circumstances of his career.
July 30, 2008 at 03:40PM View BBCode
To say nothing of the fact that that milestone is irrelevant to his candidacy since he didn't cross over to the majors until age 27.I kind of expect Ichiro to retire after his contract is up in 2012. He'll be 38, and he should have around 2,500 hits. That will be more than enough (not that hits are the only -- or even the best -- barometer, but whatever, Cowbell insists), given the circumstances of his career.
happy
Not only was he not the best player in the league that year, he wasnt even the best player on his team (Bret Boone). And Juan Gonzalez and Manny Ramirez both had a better season than him for corner outfielders.
July 30, 2008 at 03:46PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
and was never #1 at his position.He was the MVP in 2001. So the sports writers thought he was #1 in the league. He finished 7th and 8th in MVP voting in 2 other years.
Not only was he not the best player in the league that year, he wasnt even the best player on his team (Bret Boone). And Juan Gonzalez and Manny Ramirez both had a better season than him for corner outfielders.
Admin
Tyson
July 30, 2008 at 03:50PM View BBCode
Not only was he not the best player in the league that year, he wasnt even the best player on his team (Bret Boone). And Juan Gonzalez and Manny Ramirez both had a better season than him for corner outfielders.Well, the writers disagree with you. And guess who votes for the HOF?
Tyson
happy
note-- I dont really think Belle deserves the HOF due to his extremely short career.
July 30, 2008 at 03:57PM View BBCode
I think Albert Belle is more deserving of the hall of fame than Ichiro base purely on on-the-field performance. Significantly higher peak value, a career that is similar to length as Ichiros (after ichiro finishes playing), and much better rate hitting stats (and the difference is assumed to be even greater by the time Ichiro retires since he is declining). I think it more than makes up for the defense and baserunning (Belle actually wasnt all that slow, and was decent at defense, the difference is only because of Ichiro's exceptional speed and defense... based off of what i remember, not anything i actually looked up, so i could be wrong)note-- I dont really think Belle deserves the HOF due to his extremely short career.
happy
the (dumb) writers will vote ichiro in. And the dumb writers probably wont put the much more deserving Tim Raines in. I have absolutely no argument that Ichiro is a guarunteed hall of famer. I doubt anyone would argue that he wont be put into the hall of fame. and in fact, I think he deserves to be there, but I wouldnt put him there strictly based off of his on-the-field performance.
July 30, 2008 at 04:00PM View BBCode
Originally posted by Admin
Not only was he not the best player in the league that year, he wasnt even the best player on his team (Bret Boone). And Juan Gonzalez and Manny Ramirez both had a better season than him for corner outfielders.Well, the writers disagree with you. And guess who votes for the HOF?
Tyson
the (dumb) writers will vote ichiro in. And the dumb writers probably wont put the much more deserving Tim Raines in. I have absolutely no argument that Ichiro is a guarunteed hall of famer. I doubt anyone would argue that he wont be put into the hall of fame. and in fact, I think he deserves to be there, but I wouldnt put him there strictly based off of his on-the-field performance.
khazim
July 30, 2008 at 05:19PM View BBCode
His career needs to continue how it has. He's on pace for only 200 hits this season, which is still lights out hitting, but we'll see if he can hold the pace or if he declines and declines quickly.
Benne
[url=http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/6/26/559914/ichiro-is-fine]No he hasn't.[/url]
July 30, 2008 at 08:18PM View BBCode
Originally posted by FuriousGiorge
He's 34. He's already dropped off this year.
[url=http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2008/6/26/559914/ichiro-is-fine]No he hasn't.[/url]
FuriousGiorge
July 30, 2008 at 08:33PM View BBCode
Oh please. A .353 BABIP is not sustainable for a 34-year old. I especially like how quick he is to dismiss Ichiro's ground ball percentage isn't the cause of his decline, since that one year when he was awesome he hit a lot of ground balls. Will he improve his numbers over the second half? Possibly. But all of that fancy numerology simply ignores the very obvious fact that Ichiro is on the wrong side of career progression curve, and that slippage is only natural when you're his age, especially when speed is such an important part of your game. 2004 Ichiro isn't walking through that door.