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ironhorse2ko
How different would the careers of Mays and Aaron would be had they played for the Yankees?
February 11, 2010 at 11:23PM View BBCode
The Yankees could have had an outfield of Mantle, Mays, and Aaron, but were slow to intergrate. Aaron most certainly would have had greater fanfare. Mays would have had two great players to push him in the lineup. Would Aaron's HR total be higher?
shep1582
yankee stadium was a $20 cab ride to LF.
Mantle was a switch hitter, and took advantage of the short porch in RF when ever he could.
Mantle was pretty much done by '64, Mays was done in '71. Aaron played a few more years as a pretty good player.
I think the only thing they'd have is a couple more rings, and a little more fame while playing. They were both considered great players while they played. Hank may not have hit 700 had he played in Yankee, and Mays may not have hit 600. But maybe the Yankees would have shortened the fence had they had the two of them.
February 11, 2010 at 11:50PM View BBCode
no.yankee stadium was a $20 cab ride to LF.
Mantle was a switch hitter, and took advantage of the short porch in RF when ever he could.
Mantle was pretty much done by '64, Mays was done in '71. Aaron played a few more years as a pretty good player.
I think the only thing they'd have is a couple more rings, and a little more fame while playing. They were both considered great players while they played. Hank may not have hit 700 had he played in Yankee, and Mays may not have hit 600. But maybe the Yankees would have shortened the fence had they had the two of them.
ironhorse2ko
February 12, 2010 at 12:36AM View BBCode
I thought about that...the championship aspect. You're right about the fences in LF and even left center. And maybe just maybe the upper brass would have moved the fences in, maybe.
tworoosters
February 12, 2010 at 06:25PM View BBCode
On a side note, Maris wouldn't have broken Ruth's homer record in '61 .
tm4559
February 12, 2010 at 06:32PM View BBCode
i doubt elston howard or yogi berra would have ever played left field.
shep1582
he came up as one, you know...
Yeah, they'd have never gotten Maris had they had those 3 OF'ers.
Ever look at the HackWilson/RogerMaris comparison? One holds the record for RBI's, the other (used to) hold it for HR's. They're career stats are very similar, as well as postseason and awards etc.
It's neat in the way the Lincoln/JFK comparison is.
February 12, 2010 at 06:39PM View BBCode
think Aaron woulda played 2B?he came up as one, you know...
Yeah, they'd have never gotten Maris had they had those 3 OF'ers.
Ever look at the HackWilson/RogerMaris comparison? One holds the record for RBI's, the other (used to) hold it for HR's. They're career stats are very similar, as well as postseason and awards etc.
It's neat in the way the Lincoln/JFK comparison is.
barterer2002
Playing 2B in A ball as a 19 year old is different than "he came up as one" He also only played 2B that one year and made 36 errors. Prior to that he was a shortstop and truth be told there was a reason that he moved.
Making this type of argument is akin to those who think that Pat Burrell can play 3B at a major league level since he was a thirdbaseman at University of Miami.
February 12, 2010 at 06:45PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
think Aaron woulda played 2B?
he came up as one, you know...
Playing 2B in A ball as a 19 year old is different than "he came up as one" He also only played 2B that one year and made 36 errors. Prior to that he was a shortstop and truth be told there was a reason that he moved.
Making this type of argument is akin to those who think that Pat Burrell can play 3B at a major league level since he was a thirdbaseman at University of Miami.
tm4559
i guess mantle or aaron could have gone to first base. they wouldn't have ever had to mess around with peppitone.
February 12, 2010 at 06:50PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
think Aaron woulda played 2B?
i guess mantle or aaron could have gone to first base. they wouldn't have ever had to mess around with peppitone.
shep1582
my statement was 100% accurate.
he came up as a 2Bman is a plain statement of FACT.
Lots of young guys make a lot of errors when they come up, so the 36 errors is spurious. Ozzie Smith made 25 errors one year. Does that make him a terrible SS? c'mon bart.
I didn't say he WOULD have played 2B, I asked a Q about it. If they'd had all those guys, maybe they would have worked with him more, put 5 CP's on him, and made him into a serviceable 2B. Jeff Kent was never a glove whiz, but his bat made it worth him to stick him out there at 2B.
He played 43 games at 2Bman in the ML's, with a .975 fldg %. I think Aaron was a good enough athlete that he could have played the position to a draw.
No idea why you want to pick this fight. It's a what if discussion.
February 12, 2010 at 06:58PM View BBCode
no it's not.my statement was 100% accurate.
he came up as a 2Bman is a plain statement of FACT.
Lots of young guys make a lot of errors when they come up, so the 36 errors is spurious. Ozzie Smith made 25 errors one year. Does that make him a terrible SS? c'mon bart.
I didn't say he WOULD have played 2B, I asked a Q about it. If they'd had all those guys, maybe they would have worked with him more, put 5 CP's on him, and made him into a serviceable 2B. Jeff Kent was never a glove whiz, but his bat made it worth him to stick him out there at 2B.
He played 43 games at 2Bman in the ML's, with a .975 fldg %. I think Aaron was a good enough athlete that he could have played the position to a draw.
No idea why you want to pick this fight. It's a what if discussion.
tm4559
February 12, 2010 at 07:03PM View BBCode
we are missing the obvious point of the horse's thread. if Gehrig had not caught the Lou Gehrig disease, he would still be the first baseman the yankees right now. and the consectutive game streak would be totally out of hand, not to mention the home run record.
dirtdevil
actually, it's a plain statement of wrong. aaron played 113 games in the field in his rookie year, all of them in the OF. his second year he played 125 games in the OF and 26 at 2B. to say "he came up as a 2Bman" is simply not accurate. he played there in the minors. that's all.
February 12, 2010 at 07:04PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
my statement was 100% accurate.
he came up as a 2Bman is a plain statement of FACT.
actually, it's a plain statement of wrong. aaron played 113 games in the field in his rookie year, all of them in the OF. his second year he played 125 games in the OF and 26 at 2B. to say "he came up as a 2Bman" is simply not accurate. he played there in the minors. that's all.
shep1582
He'd pull a Frvae and never retire.
February 12, 2010 at 07:05PM View BBCode
No way Ripken retires or ends his streak until he passes Lou.He'd pull a Frvae and never retire.
shep1582
fact, sir.
you are incorrect. I didn't say he played his first ML season as a 2B.
"he came up as" means "he entered pro ball as".
silly argument.
February 12, 2010 at 07:08PM View BBCode
he entered pro ball as a 2B.fact, sir.
you are incorrect. I didn't say he played his first ML season as a 2B.
"he came up as" means "he entered pro ball as".
silly argument.
shep1582
February 12, 2010 at 07:09PM View BBCode
jeff bagwell came up as a 3B. he went to the majors as a 1B because the astros had caminiti.
shep1582
now THAT is an inaccurate statement.
February 12, 2010 at 07:11PM View BBCode
if he played 43 games as a 2B in the ML, how can you say "he played there in the minors, that's all"?now THAT is an inaccurate statement.
dirtdevil
it is a silly argument. it's silly because "he came up as" isn't remotely the same as "he entered pro ball as". one refers to the position he first played in the majors. the other refers to the position he first played in the minors. in aaron's case, neither of them is second base.
February 12, 2010 at 07:14PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
he entered pro ball as a 2B.
fact, sir.
you are incorrect. I didn't say he played his first ML season as a 2B.
"he came up as" means "he entered pro ball as".
silly argument.
it is a silly argument. it's silly because "he came up as" isn't remotely the same as "he entered pro ball as". one refers to the position he first played in the majors. the other refers to the position he first played in the minors. in aaron's case, neither of them is second base.
dirtdevil
that's all, as in "that is the full extent of his career as a second baseman". if you'd like to spin it so that 43 games out of 3298 (or 1.3% of the total) at second base contsitutes a major-league career at second base, you're welcome to try.
February 12, 2010 at 07:17PM View BBCode
Originally posted by shep1582
if he played 43 games as a 2B in the ML, how can you say "he played there in the minors, that's all"?
now THAT is an inaccurate statement.
that's all, as in "that is the full extent of his career as a second baseman". if you'd like to spin it so that 43 games out of 3298 (or 1.3% of the total) at second base contsitutes a major-league career at second base, you're welcome to try.
FuriousGiorge
February 12, 2010 at 07:19PM View BBCode
Semantics arguments are the worst thing in the world. Worse than "Jersey Shore."
tworoosters
Mays is unlikely to debut in '51 because the Yanks have a reasonably good CFer at that time and Mays is black, so let's say Mays comes up in '54 after serving in the military .
So the '54 Yankees outfield is Mantle, Bauer and Mays, I kind of think that Mays might've put them over the top so the Yankees go to 10 straight World Series instead of 9 of 10 and Clevelanders are even more pathetic.
Aaron probably doesn't start until '55 at which point the Yankees move Bauer to 1B and Skowron doesn't start until say '57 plus who knows what happens with Yogi and Elston Howard.
I think Yogi plays and Howard gets traded to Washington for Harmon Killebrew and Camillo Pascual while, in '57, the Mays-less Giants, desperate for power as they approach their move to San Francisco deal for Skowron and Bauer by offering up a package of youngsters including Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey and Mike McCormick.
The end result is that Washington moves a year or two earlier, San Fran never does anything and the Yankees win every World Series until about 1972.
Mays and Aaron's numbers are lower but that is more than compensated for by the 18-20 rings the each win. In addition the continued success of the Yankees means that CBS can't afford to buy them and mismanage them, which in turn means that Steinbrenner can't scoop them up in '73.
The resulting "Old School" Yankees aren't able to foresee coming free agency and as a result fall into decline in the mid '70s, a decade later than in reality . The resulting flop of free agency allows Oakland to remain dominant until ........... oh never mind I'm getting tired.
February 12, 2010 at 07:25PM View BBCode
So let's hypothesize that the Yankees acquire all three.Mays is unlikely to debut in '51 because the Yanks have a reasonably good CFer at that time and Mays is black, so let's say Mays comes up in '54 after serving in the military .
So the '54 Yankees outfield is Mantle, Bauer and Mays, I kind of think that Mays might've put them over the top so the Yankees go to 10 straight World Series instead of 9 of 10 and Clevelanders are even more pathetic.
Aaron probably doesn't start until '55 at which point the Yankees move Bauer to 1B and Skowron doesn't start until say '57 plus who knows what happens with Yogi and Elston Howard.
I think Yogi plays and Howard gets traded to Washington for Harmon Killebrew and Camillo Pascual while, in '57, the Mays-less Giants, desperate for power as they approach their move to San Francisco deal for Skowron and Bauer by offering up a package of youngsters including Orlando Cepeda, Willie McCovey and Mike McCormick.
The end result is that Washington moves a year or two earlier, San Fran never does anything and the Yankees win every World Series until about 1972.
Mays and Aaron's numbers are lower but that is more than compensated for by the 18-20 rings the each win. In addition the continued success of the Yankees means that CBS can't afford to buy them and mismanage them, which in turn means that Steinbrenner can't scoop them up in '73.
The resulting "Old School" Yankees aren't able to foresee coming free agency and as a result fall into decline in the mid '70s, a decade later than in reality . The resulting flop of free agency allows Oakland to remain dominant until ........... oh never mind I'm getting tired.
tm4559
February 12, 2010 at 07:35PM View BBCode
doggone, oakland? it really is a good thing the yankees just stayed with what they had.
shep1582
for my entire life, "he came up as" has generally been followed by "but switched to", and it referred to how someone began their pro career.
if you want to continue to belabor this, go ahead. he began his pro career as a 2B, and played some 2B in the ML's.
that's a FACT. for bart to say it's a silly notion that he COULD not have been a ML 2B is, to me, ridiculous.
for you to semanticize what I said is even more ridiculous. (sillier even than semanticize). I watched aaron play, and I know full well that he was an OF'er, and that his ML career started in the OF. you're arguing just to argue, so I'm done with this subject.
he came up as is the same thing as he began his pro career as. that's what i said, and that's what I meant.
ridiculing me over this just makes you look small.
February 12, 2010 at 07:38PM View BBCode
you're trying to play semantics with me deke, and you're just wrong.for my entire life, "he came up as" has generally been followed by "but switched to", and it referred to how someone began their pro career.
if you want to continue to belabor this, go ahead. he began his pro career as a 2B, and played some 2B in the ML's.
that's a FACT. for bart to say it's a silly notion that he COULD not have been a ML 2B is, to me, ridiculous.
for you to semanticize what I said is even more ridiculous. (sillier even than semanticize). I watched aaron play, and I know full well that he was an OF'er, and that his ML career started in the OF. you're arguing just to argue, so I'm done with this subject.
he came up as is the same thing as he began his pro career as. that's what i said, and that's what I meant.
ridiculing me over this just makes you look small.
