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Old Forum Index » Baseball League Forums » Speed Leagues » Salary Leagues » Kevin Brown League » Discussion Item: Raises for under OS28 players
barterer2002
Players who are not eligible for free agency get a scheduled bump in their salaries each season. This bump is based on several factors including total major league stats, last season's stats, and overall rating.
The initial discussion of the salaries for under OS28 players can be found here:
http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=195499
Its designed so that a top player (call him an A level with many years of top stats behind him) at age OS28 should be making about 3M. That's significantly less than what he'll earn in Free Agency but also significantly more than the B level guy drafted in the same year without playing much since.
Part of the issue is that the projections on the salary page don't account for things like moving up in grade or for the most recent season's stats and thus tends to be lower than that the actual will be which can and does confuse some owners.
Discussion Item: Raises for under OS28 players
November 28, 2011 at 05:58PM View BBCode
Note: There are several issues for discussion up in the KBL forums at the moment. I don't know or guarantee that we'll be able to get any changes implemented immediately or at all but I'd like to have the conversations and see if we can make free agency a better experience. In order to keep things clean, I've split up the discussion points and would like to keep them separate if possible. I've also invited owners in other salary leagues to participate if they want although in terms of what we do here in the KBL it will be up to us. (I do feel that having more ideas is always a better thing). Lets keep these conversations civil.Players who are not eligible for free agency get a scheduled bump in their salaries each season. This bump is based on several factors including total major league stats, last season's stats, and overall rating.
The initial discussion of the salaries for under OS28 players can be found here:
http://www.simdynasty.com/oldforum-viewthread.jsp?tid=195499
Its designed so that a top player (call him an A level with many years of top stats behind him) at age OS28 should be making about 3M. That's significantly less than what he'll earn in Free Agency but also significantly more than the B level guy drafted in the same year without playing much since.
Part of the issue is that the projections on the salary page don't account for things like moving up in grade or for the most recent season's stats and thus tends to be lower than that the actual will be which can and does confuse some owners.
Splinter
Until FA minimum salaries are raised to some level much higher than the $.5 M/yr its at now (example BZL), there is little reason to develop any position player other than the premier prospects because a mid level prospect will always be more expensive than a bargain veteran who will deliver more production for less money.
FA minimum needs to be raised to $1.0M/yr or $1.5M/yr to make it worthwile to develop and promote they guys who will end up being mid level A- OVR.
November 28, 2011 at 06:43PM View BBCode
The formula is rational but the result is a system that prevent most prospects from being relevant. OS28 and younger salaries are to high compared to FA vets.Until FA minimum salaries are raised to some level much higher than the $.5 M/yr its at now (example BZL), there is little reason to develop any position player other than the premier prospects because a mid level prospect will always be more expensive than a bargain veteran who will deliver more production for less money.
FA minimum needs to be raised to $1.0M/yr or $1.5M/yr to make it worthwile to develop and promote they guys who will end up being mid level A- OVR.
tworoosters
There is no sport, that I'm aware of, with a salary cap that counts minor league players against the salary cap.
[Edited on 11-28-2011 by tworoosters]
November 28, 2011 at 07:54PM View BBCode
I think the real key to having under 28 players receive reasonable salaries is to only count their salaries against the cap if they are on the major league roster.There is no sport, that I'm aware of, with a salary cap that counts minor league players against the salary cap.
[Edited on 11-28-2011 by tworoosters]
thatrogue
November 29, 2011 at 04:40PM View BBCode
A system in which each team has a major league cap and a separate minor league budget would be an interesting and worthwhile change. This way, minor league players would not count against the cap until they were promoted.
dangallo
3rd that. Good but not great prospects are a serious problem particularly in a system 3 minors league (like the CHL).
November 29, 2011 at 11:26PM View BBCode
Originally posted by dirtdevil
i have to agree with roosters on this one.
3rd that. Good but not great prospects are a serious problem particularly in a system 3 minors league (like the CHL).
BigMacAttack
I'd worry about the possibility of people hiding old wash outs with big contracts down there so we'd need something to guard against that. I think roosters suggested only having players on U28 contracts in the minors not count against the cap in another thread. if that could work i'd be for that
November 30, 2011 at 02:39AM View BBCode
i'd also agree that having minor league players not count against the cap would be a good idea and help to allow mid level prospects to develop because we'd keep them instead of throwing them away for vets making the minimum or scrubs making nothing.I'd worry about the possibility of people hiding old wash outs with big contracts down there so we'd need something to guard against that. I think roosters suggested only having players on U28 contracts in the minors not count against the cap in another thread. if that could work i'd be for that
kyleturf30
I think that the second the guy appears in the majors his salary should be .5. That player gets a .5 raise every year until he becomes a free agent. Regardless rather he remains in your majors or goes back to your minors... or goes to a different team by being traded or waived.
So lets suppose
So you get the #1 overall pick and that guy is 20 years old 2B with A+ health and A+ power, B+ overall. In a regular league he comes up and wins the ROY and is headed to All Star. In the salary league under my scenerio he would not count against you untill he reaches the majors. You decide to keep him down becasue the second he comes up his salary starts UP. To minimize the guys salary you wanna keep him down so he's not so expensive in that 27 or 28 year.
A 20 year old player that plays at age 20 would cost you 4 million in that 28 year season. If you wait to bring the guy up until he's 24 then that 28th season is 2.0 million.
November 30, 2011 at 08:31PM View BBCode
Minor leaguers not counting against the cap is a great idea...I think that the second the guy appears in the majors his salary should be .5. That player gets a .5 raise every year until he becomes a free agent. Regardless rather he remains in your majors or goes back to your minors... or goes to a different team by being traded or waived.
So lets suppose
So you get the #1 overall pick and that guy is 20 years old 2B with A+ health and A+ power, B+ overall. In a regular league he comes up and wins the ROY and is headed to All Star. In the salary league under my scenerio he would not count against you untill he reaches the majors. You decide to keep him down becasue the second he comes up his salary starts UP. To minimize the guys salary you wanna keep him down so he's not so expensive in that 27 or 28 year.
A 20 year old player that plays at age 20 would cost you 4 million in that 28 year season. If you wait to bring the guy up until he's 24 then that 28th season is 2.0 million.
Wildcat
I totally agree with that
not a big fan of that. I think the 20 year old #1 overall pick should play.
that idea would put financial thoughts over what's best for the player and his stats and potential life-time records he could brake...
December 01, 2011 at 07:02AM View BBCode
Originally posted by BigMacAttack
i'd also agree that having minor league players not count against the cap would be a good idea
I'd worry about the possibility of people hiding old wash outs with big contracts down there so we'd need something to guard against that. I think roosters suggested only having players on U28 contracts in the minors not count against the cap in another thread. if that could work i'd be for that
I totally agree with that
Originally posted by kyleturf30
I think that the second the guy appears in the majors his salary should be .5. That player gets a .5 raise every year until he becomes a free agent.
A 20 year old player that plays at age 20 would cost you 4 million in that 28 year season. If you wait to bring the guy up until he's 24 then that 28th season is 2.0 million.
not a big fan of that. I think the 20 year old #1 overall pick should play.
that idea would put financial thoughts over what's best for the player and his stats and potential life-time records he could brake...
barterer2002
Under OS28 salaries
- I'd be game for changing this formula for all leagues. I think the salary numbers are a bit too high for the mid-level prospects, particularly guys in the minors. You want to be careful not to make it too low so people aren't stashing talent that should be in the majors. Maybe lower salaries for guys drafted after the 1st round or 1st 20 picks, or adjust the overall rating component of the formula (or change to use a different rating than overall rating that better reflects player value)
December 02, 2011 at 10:32PM View BBCode
[quote=from tyson]Under OS28 salaries
- I'd be game for changing this formula for all leagues. I think the salary numbers are a bit too high for the mid-level prospects, particularly guys in the minors. You want to be careful not to make it too low so people aren't stashing talent that should be in the majors. Maybe lower salaries for guys drafted after the 1st round or 1st 20 picks, or adjust the overall rating component of the formula (or change to use a different rating than overall rating that better reflects player value)
arefj
The one difference I'd have, is that I'd have a rookie salary;
If you've not played enough games to become for eligible for rookie of the year then your salary is maxed out at $250K. The season you're no longer eligible for rookie of the year, you get paid whatever ABE's no is.
This should be easy to program and means the fringe guy gets developed in the minors until he's ready to play in the majors with no penalty.
The thing I have against ignoring Minor Leaguers against the cap is that it's so easy to game. You'd have to define minor leaguer better, and I'm not sure you can.
By this I mean:
- Would a 35yo pitcher, whom I moved down to my minors count as a minor leaguer (even if I'm paying him $13mn+). If so, not then I can hoard as many good players in the minors on l-term deals as i want as it won't hit my cap. If not, then my cap space is spread over 26players.
- How would you count players (e.g. some 25 yo 5th SP) moving from minors to majors and back, or would your salary number change every game?
December 02, 2011 at 11:09PM View BBCode
I'm actually largely okay with the system at the moment - I just think of the $80mn as a squad-wide number (with minor leaguers being my B-team, as it were).The one difference I'd have, is that I'd have a rookie salary;
If you've not played enough games to become for eligible for rookie of the year then your salary is maxed out at $250K. The season you're no longer eligible for rookie of the year, you get paid whatever ABE's no is.
This should be easy to program and means the fringe guy gets developed in the minors until he's ready to play in the majors with no penalty.
The thing I have against ignoring Minor Leaguers against the cap is that it's so easy to game. You'd have to define minor leaguer better, and I'm not sure you can.
By this I mean:
- Would a 35yo pitcher, whom I moved down to my minors count as a minor leaguer (even if I'm paying him $13mn+). If so, not then I can hoard as many good players in the minors on l-term deals as i want as it won't hit my cap. If not, then my cap space is spread over 26players.
- How would you count players (e.g. some 25 yo 5th SP) moving from minors to majors and back, or would your salary number change every game?
barterer2002
Part of the issue here is that a veteran minimum at .5M makes such players cheaper options than many of the minor league players. The way the formula is set up marginal sub OS28 guys are often between .5M and 1M before they become useful parts. If we raised the minimum salary to 1M instead of the current .5M it would solve a lot of the problem and make the guys who are .76M better bench players (in terms of value at least) than the 1M vet.
December 05, 2011 at 06:32PM View BBCode
There is an alternative that we haven't yet discussed.Part of the issue here is that a veteran minimum at .5M makes such players cheaper options than many of the minor league players. The way the formula is set up marginal sub OS28 guys are often between .5M and 1M before they become useful parts. If we raised the minimum salary to 1M instead of the current .5M it would solve a lot of the problem and make the guys who are .76M better bench players (in terms of value at least) than the 1M vet.
dirtdevil
December 06, 2011 at 04:16AM View BBCode
i would be completely against raising the minimum salary.
tworoosters
But isn't Admin's valuation of these salaries based on a $500K minimum ?
My understanding was that u28s making more than $500K were making that because they were evaluated as better than replacement level players so if you raise the league minimum to $1 million that $750K 26 year old should now have a salary of $1.5 million .
December 06, 2011 at 04:23PM View BBCode
Originally posted by barterer2002
There is an alternative that we haven't yet discussed.
Part of the issue here is that a veteran minimum at .5M makes such players cheaper options than many of the minor league players. The way the formula is set up marginal sub OS28 guys are often between .5M and 1M before they become useful parts. If we raised the minimum salary to 1M instead of the current .5M it would solve a lot of the problem and make the guys who are .76M better bench players (in terms of value at least) than the 1M vet.
But isn't Admin's valuation of these salaries based on a $500K minimum ?
My understanding was that u28s making more than $500K were making that because they were evaluated as better than replacement level players so if you raise the league minimum to $1 million that $750K 26 year old should now have a salary of $1.5 million .
barterer2002
January 05, 2012 at 09:19PM View BBCode
So as I read through the comments here, the solution that seems to come forward is to split out the minor and major league salaries so that minor league players do not count against the cap. Do we want to discuss this further.
BigMacAttack
of course I'm not sure what the solution would be unless we can have the cap set up to only count U28 contracts that are in the major leagues or count the over 28 contracts in the minors against the cap (however you want to say that) or even only guys who have options left in the minors don't count against the cap (if this would be easier to do I'd be okay with that)
[Edited on 1-5-2012 by BigMacAttack]
January 05, 2012 at 09:38PM View BBCode
I would be willing to do so. I like the idea but again think we need to have some sort of control in place so this is not abused i.e. someone stuffing the 36 year old B overall starter that is making 16 million down in the minors. If that isn't cap circumvention I don't know what isof course I'm not sure what the solution would be unless we can have the cap set up to only count U28 contracts that are in the major leagues or count the over 28 contracts in the minors against the cap (however you want to say that) or even only guys who have options left in the minors don't count against the cap (if this would be easier to do I'd be okay with that)
[Edited on 1-5-2012 by BigMacAttack]
CCondardo
If a player is FA eligible his salary goes towards the ML cap, if he is not FA eligible his salary goes to the ML.
--Corey
March 01, 2012 at 03:13PM View BBCode
Why don't you just have a minor league salary cap as well, set at like, 12M (making that up) and you have to have at least 15 guys.If a player is FA eligible his salary goes towards the ML cap, if he is not FA eligible his salary goes to the ML.
--Corey
tworoosters
There has not been a change to the game side in over a year so I really doubt that there is any chance of changes being made that affect only salary leagues, of which there are only four .
March 01, 2012 at 05:18PM View BBCode
I really think these discussions are moot .There has not been a change to the game side in over a year so I really doubt that there is any chance of changes being made that affect only salary leagues, of which there are only four .
CCondardo
True.. I guess I'm just bored at work today.
--Corey
March 01, 2012 at 08:49PM View BBCode
Originally posted by tworoosters
I really think these discussions are moot .
There has not been a change to the game side in over a year so I really doubt that there is any chance of changes being made that affect only salary leagues, of which there are only four .
True.. I guess I'm just bored at work today.
--Corey
sharbrough
March 01, 2012 at 09:29PM View BBCode
Well, I'd like to add that the problem doesn't seem like much of a problem, either.
DW_Geoff
First of all any player signed as a FA cannot simply be dumped to the minors to avoid the contract(I believe this cannot be done in Hockey or Baseball either)
Also I have no issues with the raises that U28 players get, however they tend to be very generous for marginal players. Raising the Min FA will not do this. However one thing that can bedone is immediately upon passing waivers allow these players to be resigned at .3M(or some other nominal amout)
Let's face it no one will spend 1.03M on this
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=9309817
However if his salary was .3 another team may pick him up
March 02, 2012 at 05:02PM View BBCode
I am in agreemant about the Minor leaguers not counting...However this may be more difficult to implement.First of all any player signed as a FA cannot simply be dumped to the minors to avoid the contract(I believe this cannot be done in Hockey or Baseball either)
Also I have no issues with the raises that U28 players get, however they tend to be very generous for marginal players. Raising the Min FA will not do this. However one thing that can bedone is immediately upon passing waivers allow these players to be resigned at .3M(or some other nominal amout)
Let's face it no one will spend 1.03M on this
http://simdynasty.com/player.jsp?mode=player&playername=nobody&id=9309817
However if his salary was .3 another team may pick him up
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