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Old Forum Index » Other Stuff » Sports Talk » B.J. Ryan signs with Toronto
smartyshoe22
a) Ask for what Ryan got (5 years $47 million, or possibly just x years, $9.2x million because I don't think anyone's going to sign wagner for 5 years)
or
b) Say that he's the only good lefty closer out there and demand more.
B.J. Ryan signs with Toronto
November 26, 2005 at 01:08PM View BBCode
Darn! I wanted the Yankees to get him. They need a lefty reliever. But Toronto signed him. Oh well, Toronto won't compete with the Yankees this year. Well, this means that Billy Wagner could:a) Ask for what Ryan got (5 years $47 million, or possibly just x years, $9.2x million because I don't think anyone's going to sign wagner for 5 years)
or
b) Say that he's the only good lefty closer out there and demand more.
skierdude44
As for Ryan, I guess his desire to close was greater than his desire to win. I don't think that the Yankees really made a hard push for him either though.
November 26, 2005 at 02:57PM View BBCode
The Mets will end up outbidding themselves for Wagner...As for Ryan, I guess his desire to close was greater than his desire to win. I don't think that the Yankees really made a hard push for him either though.
yankeekid
November 26, 2005 at 03:21PM View BBCode
That's not good. I wanted him. I also wanted Aaron Rowand but oh well.
skierdude44
November 26, 2005 at 03:33PM View BBCode
Don't fret... there still is the possibility that they could be lucky enough to land the great Jason Michaels to play center. I guess that is better than signing Brian Giles for an extremely high amount of money just to find out that he's been a corner outfielder his entire career for a reason and that at age 35 his best days are behind him...
barterer2002
November 26, 2005 at 05:24PM View BBCode
Jason Michaels on the Yankees would be great. He's got the attitude to go along with New York. Wonder if he'll swing at the cops there too?
kujayhawks15
The Blue Jays could very well compete. They have a good hitting team, and now, with them signing Ryan they can move Miguel Batista back into the rotation, giving them a pretty good rotation. Also, I don't know if the Ryan deal knocks them out of the race, but they offered A.J. Burnett a 5 year deal, and if he signs there. I think they would have the better rotation than the Yankees.
November 26, 2005 at 07:05PM View BBCode
Originally posted by smartyshoe22
Darn! I wanted the Yankees to get him. They need a lefty reliever. But Toronto signed him. Oh well, Toronto won't compete with the Yankees this year. Well, this means that
The Blue Jays could very well compete. They have a good hitting team, and now, with them signing Ryan they can move Miguel Batista back into the rotation, giving them a pretty good rotation. Also, I don't know if the Ryan deal knocks them out of the race, but they offered A.J. Burnett a 5 year deal, and if he signs there. I think they would have the better rotation than the Yankees.
Smocko
November 27, 2005 at 02:17AM View BBCode
...considering Chan Ho Park is the last pitcher to get a five year deal.
Vendrell
November 27, 2005 at 02:45AM View BBCode
well, if you choose to agree with me in saying that high-leverage, dominant relievers are worth more to a team than league-average starting pitchers (which most would agree is very true) then this deal, while seemingly bad at a first glance, isnt really THAT bad... matt clement and carl pavano both make similar amounts of money per year, and they are nowhere near as valuable as Ryan. Ryan is in the prime of his career, his K/9 has been trending upward each year (and its already insanly dominant), and he has not had a significant injury history. 5 years is long, and 9.2m/year is quite a bit, but im going to go on a limb and say this wont even make the top 10 worst deals of the offseason list. Lets see what burnett and wagner get before we evaluate this one in this market.
Smocko
November 27, 2005 at 03:02AM View BBCode
I'm going to let ME handle this one, he does the whole unspeakable fury thing a lot better than I do.
rkinslow19
Quick Review of the Facts:
29 years old. 3.54 Career ERA. 42 Career Saves. 17 Career Blown Saves.
5 years, 47 Million
Apparently when you throw a desperate team with money to burn into a weak market, giving this guy the largest closer contract ever makes sense.
November 27, 2005 at 08:01AM View BBCode
Rediculous signing.Quick Review of the Facts:
29 years old. 3.54 Career ERA. 42 Career Saves. 17 Career Blown Saves.
5 years, 47 Million
Apparently when you throw a desperate team with money to burn into a weak market, giving this guy the largest closer contract ever makes sense.
barterer2002
Overall, you're right that the free agent class is weak this year but the closer position is not.
November 27, 2005 at 04:42PM View BBCode
Actually closer is the one part of the market that isn't weak this season with Wagner, Hoffman, Wickman, Urbina, Gordon, Todd Jones, Mesa and Ryan all free agents and Baez available via trade fully nine potential closers are available with ease on the market this winter.Overall, you're right that the free agent class is weak this year but the closer position is not.
barterer2002
November 27, 2005 at 04:43PM View BBCode
Just to be clear, this does not mean that I think the Ryan signing is a good one for toronto.
rkinslow19
Wagner is a stud (obviously)
Hoffman is quality, but at 38, he's pretty much through
Urbina is in jail on attempted murder charges
Wickman, 36, is actually fairly dependable
Jones, 37, came out of nowhere, and hasnt closed regularly since 2000
Gordon, 37, has only closed for 2 seasons, '01, '98
Mesa, 39, career 4.29 ERA, and over the last 3 seasons is 4.77, 3.25, 6.52
So unless a team wants to roll the dice on an aged player, this really isn't all that deep of a class.
I'm not that familiar with the Jays farm system, but promoting a power arm to close has been pretty effective over the last few years. If all else fails, they could have gone the rout of the Giants, and plugged a middle reliever in, and hoped for the best.
When it all comes down to it, I just don't think Ryan was worth that kind of money, especially for a small market team
November 27, 2005 at 10:56PM View BBCode
You're right, there are lots of "closers" availible, but not many of them are quality.Wagner is a stud (obviously)
Hoffman is quality, but at 38, he's pretty much through
Urbina is in jail on attempted murder charges
Wickman, 36, is actually fairly dependable
Jones, 37, came out of nowhere, and hasnt closed regularly since 2000
Gordon, 37, has only closed for 2 seasons, '01, '98
Mesa, 39, career 4.29 ERA, and over the last 3 seasons is 4.77, 3.25, 6.52
So unless a team wants to roll the dice on an aged player, this really isn't all that deep of a class.
I'm not that familiar with the Jays farm system, but promoting a power arm to close has been pretty effective over the last few years. If all else fails, they could have gone the rout of the Giants, and plugged a middle reliever in, and hoped for the best.
When it all comes down to it, I just don't think Ryan was worth that kind of money, especially for a small market team
barterer2002
November 27, 2005 at 11:07PM View BBCode
I'm certainly not disagreeing that the Blue Jays made a bad signing here, clearly overpaying for someone who will throw 70 innings max, the point I was making was that there were plenty of other closers avaialble that would be cheaper. Of the potential closers I mentioned, all have better and/or longer track records as a closer than BJ Ryan who has a total of one year's closing experience (if you're going to dismiss Gordon for having only two years experience then you can't really rely on Ryan's one year)
ironhorse
November 27, 2005 at 11:10PM View BBCode
Ryan, hmm he was doing well here in Baltimore, but then again we blew it, as always. But then again the Orioles still finished higher than they did. He should have went to NY.
skierdude44
Well, that all depends on what your standard of "quality" is. You can probably count the "lights out" closers in the league on one hand (Rivera, Gagne, Lidge...) and after that what are you left with? You're left with the Tom Gordon's and Bob Wickman's of the world. Relievers' performance tends to fluctuate a great deal from season to season because the only pitch a small number of innings per year. It's hard to accurately judge talent on that basis. Like I said, the consistently "lights out" closers can be counted on one hand (you can probably add Wagner and Hoffman to the list as well), but after that you're left with a bunch of setup men and middle relievers that are trying to fill that role.
But, yes the Ryan signing was a bad one.
November 27, 2005 at 11:58PM View BBCode
Originally posted by rkinslow19
You're right, there are lots of "closers" availible, but not many of them are quality.
Well, that all depends on what your standard of "quality" is. You can probably count the "lights out" closers in the league on one hand (Rivera, Gagne, Lidge...) and after that what are you left with? You're left with the Tom Gordon's and Bob Wickman's of the world. Relievers' performance tends to fluctuate a great deal from season to season because the only pitch a small number of innings per year. It's hard to accurately judge talent on that basis. Like I said, the consistently "lights out" closers can be counted on one hand (you can probably add Wagner and Hoffman to the list as well), but after that you're left with a bunch of setup men and middle relievers that are trying to fill that role.
But, yes the Ryan signing was a bad one.
ME
Ryan is the best relief pitcher available this offseason, and along with Wagner only one of two dominant ones. The Blue Jays, however, need offense, and this money could have been much better spent elsewhere. Elite and expensive relievers are nice to have but offense is a higher priority.
Just look at some of the other "closers" available: Todd Jones and Bob Wickman came off bad years and played for much less money. It's not hard to find a decent reliever at a low price if you try and get a little lucky.
November 28, 2005 at 12:12AM View BBCode
There's no difference between a great reliever and a great closer. It's just a matter of oppurtunities for a near-meaningless statistic called a "save."Ryan is the best relief pitcher available this offseason, and along with Wagner only one of two dominant ones. The Blue Jays, however, need offense, and this money could have been much better spent elsewhere. Elite and expensive relievers are nice to have but offense is a higher priority.
Just look at some of the other "closers" available: Todd Jones and Bob Wickman came off bad years and played for much less money. It's not hard to find a decent reliever at a low price if you try and get a little lucky.
barterer2002
LaTroy Hawkins
November 28, 2005 at 03:42AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ME
There's no difference between a great reliever and a great closer. It's just a matter of oppurtunities for a near-meaningless statistic called a "save."
LaTroy Hawkins
rkinslow19
A agree that saves are a misleading statistic, but it's a mistake not to distinguish between great relievers and great closers. Closers have a different mindset, and they need to perform under pressure. Baseball is full of failed closers who have had success either in middle relief, or starting. Off the top of my head: Byung-yum Kim, Arthur Rhodes, etc...
Cases could also be made for Guillermo Mota, the Red Sox bullpen, Octavio Dotel (although i think he's pretty good). Some guys are better in the role of setup men
November 28, 2005 at 06:16AM View BBCode
Originally posted by ME
There's no difference between a great reliever and a great closer. It's just a matter of oppurtunities for a near-meaningless statistic called a "save."
A agree that saves are a misleading statistic, but it's a mistake not to distinguish between great relievers and great closers. Closers have a different mindset, and they need to perform under pressure. Baseball is full of failed closers who have had success either in middle relief, or starting. Off the top of my head: Byung-yum Kim, Arthur Rhodes, etc...
Cases could also be made for Guillermo Mota, the Red Sox bullpen, Octavio Dotel (although i think he's pretty good). Some guys are better in the role of setup men
rkinslow19
November 28, 2005 at 06:17AM View BBCode
By the way, does this signing take them out of the running for AJ Burnett?
BrutusKhan
To be clear here, for 2 seasons in a row, this guy has had a whip of 1.14, a strike out ratio of 1.4 per inning, & above a 3.5 to 1 K to BB ratio.
And he's left handed, and his OS age is 30.(had to get that in there.)
Not knowing him very well, I don't know why he waited until he was 27 to turn the corner in his career, but the reality is, he has. Numbers like that are going to garnish a fat contract from one of the teams looking to make a splash.
Now, if you are WAY UP north in another COUNTRY!!!, and you would like to get some players via free agency, especially given their tax laws, you can count on overpaying some for any free agent. So, since the owner has a bug up his rear, and wants to build a contender by spending more(see Baltimore, Mets, Dodgers & numerous other failures about this mistake), you can count on seeing Toronto's name being followed by several over priced free agents during the next few seasons.
However, if I were the GM in a situation such as this, I would be looking for guys like Wickman last year, who were coming off injuries, and were looking for a place to play on a one year contract so they could up their value for the next off season. Maybe I overpay to get them on one year contracts, but every year, the market has tons of these guys.
Anything would be better than being tied to a reliever for 5 years. They rarely last that long.
November 28, 2005 at 05:49PM View BBCode
http://sports.yahoo.com/mlb/players/6294/careerTo be clear here, for 2 seasons in a row, this guy has had a whip of 1.14, a strike out ratio of 1.4 per inning, & above a 3.5 to 1 K to BB ratio.
And he's left handed, and his OS age is 30.(had to get that in there.)
Not knowing him very well, I don't know why he waited until he was 27 to turn the corner in his career, but the reality is, he has. Numbers like that are going to garnish a fat contract from one of the teams looking to make a splash.
Now, if you are WAY UP north in another COUNTRY!!!, and you would like to get some players via free agency, especially given their tax laws, you can count on overpaying some for any free agent. So, since the owner has a bug up his rear, and wants to build a contender by spending more(see Baltimore, Mets, Dodgers & numerous other failures about this mistake), you can count on seeing Toronto's name being followed by several over priced free agents during the next few seasons.
However, if I were the GM in a situation such as this, I would be looking for guys like Wickman last year, who were coming off injuries, and were looking for a place to play on a one year contract so they could up their value for the next off season. Maybe I overpay to get them on one year contracts, but every year, the market has tons of these guys.
Anything would be better than being tied to a reliever for 5 years. They rarely last that long.
rkinslow19
November 29, 2005 at 11:24AM View BBCode
I read an interesting article on ESPN that made a great point. The Jays acted quickly and overpaid to sign Ryan, because they wanted to lock him up before having to compete with the losers of the Wagner sweepstakes. From that point of view, it's a much better signing....
FuriousGiorge
November 29, 2005 at 08:20PM View BBCode
No it's not. It's still a 5-year deal for a closer who isn't named Mariano Rivera or Eric Gagne. They'll be looking to dump this salary by the end of year 2.Pages: 1